NTFS support in Win 98/SE/ME?

[jaclaz]

Just to make things as clear as possible:

Is it theoretically possible to implement support for the NTFS format under Windows 98/SE/ME?

Yes, it is theoretically possible, and actually Wnternals, the "COMMERCIAL" brother company of Sysinternals did that in practice.

And if it is possible, then why hasn't someone taken this up yet?

See above, it has been done.

Boot support for an IFS under Win9x/Me it is NOT possible, not even theoretically, unless one re-writes the DOS system files, integrating into them the missing filesystem.

So what is the point ?

Ranting about the fact that noone wrote a FREE app for doing that?

Well, this is the situation as per today, like it or not.

And, given the evolution of Operating Systems, it is very unlikely that anyone with the right knowledge for writing such a piece of code will be willing to do so, but you never know.

Maybe, if Sysinternals were NOT bought by Microsoft, Mark Russinovich might have decided to release the old Winternals driver as Freeware, soon or late, but releasing the driver is evidently against current MS policies, so this makes this event even more unlikely.

Well, for the record ....

Apples and oranges.

Yep, that's the idea about the "for the record" innuendo, the post was made trying to add some related information, specifying the limitations of the linked apps, but don't be so sure about the actual differences between Apples and Oranges:

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/v...1-3-apples.html

jaclaz

[Xeno86]

Well I have began writing an NTFS file system driver at the beginning of this month

But don't hold your breath. It's in VERY early stage and mostly unfunctional.

Some details:

It it based on ntfs-3g and plain 98 DDK. It is a protected mode (Windows only) driver. So far I have been able to integrate ntfs-3g into VxD driver and successfully recognize and mount NTFS partition. Drive letters for NTFS partitions are assigned and disk size is displayed. But that's all I have done so far.

The problem is that the documentation from DDK is not good at all. It lacks examples. Ioctl16 documentation is missing. There are many secret parameters which are not listed but used extensively in VFAT.

Therefore I have a request. I'm searching for this book in digital form:

Inside The Windows 95 File System, by Stan Mitchell

This book is out of print and is not available in my country.

Any other books about Windows 9x filesystems might also be useful.

[jaclaz]

Well I have began writing an NTFS file system driver at the beginning of this month

GOOD news.

I don't have any of the books you cited, maybe something in these:

http://www.pcausa.com/resources/ifsqlist.html

http://www.techsoftpl.com/vxd/sample.htm

http://www.chsw.com/ddk/

may help you?

If the problems you are having are in the IFS/hooking part, you may want to review the Sources for fsdext2:

http://www.dcee.net/Files/Programm/Windows/fsdext2.zip

or some of the other programs you can find on that page:

http://www.dcee.net/Files/Programm/Windows/

jaclaz

P.S.: The book is available (used) from as low as $2.79:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/156...1981643-2719235

even adding to it the Standard International Shipping rate of $12.49:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/dis...p;nodeId=537734

should be convenient.

Be aware of this, however:

http://www.themobiusproject.com/mirrors/ww.../Resources.html

Inside the Windows 95 File System

Stan Mitchell's coverage of the Windows 95 file system environment is an introduction, with an emphasis on introduction, to the topic. As I learned while developing our full-featured NTFS for Windows 98 driver environment, the book lacks much of the information necessary to develop a production file system driver.

Edited January 21, 2008 by jaclaz

[ricardrosen]

omnifs.exe from symantec Ghost is another tool that allows NTFS access from DOS/Win98.

Edited January 24, 2008 by ricardrosen

[Offler]

I have tested Winternals NTFS Reader/Writer for Win98.

It uses VXD driver with original NTFS driver from windows 2k and it seems to me as reverse engineered form of communication. NTFS read and write is surely possible via VXD driver. Not only theoretically but also practically.

I want to use NTFS filesystem for better video capturing. Therefore i need application at good level and so much reliable as possible. Winternals/Sysinternals is not one of them - disc activity was slightly affected by it, but it shows that this kind of operations are at least possible.

[RetroOS]

I feel that this is worth bumping this topic even if it is nearly a year old!

The full version of Paragon NTFS for Win98 3.0.2.2 is currently available free of charge for read/write access.

NTFS for Win98 uses a single VxD solution with no dependancies on Microsoft NT files.

If is designated for non-commercial use only:

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-win98/

I've been testing it and so far it works well.

The installer warns you to disable Recycle Bin on the NTFS drive in Windows 9x.

If you don't, like I didn't, the Recycle Bin on the NTFS drive becomes corrupt and causes minor NTFS file system errors that requires chkdsk /f run from Windows XP.

I was mainly interested in access to files over 4GiB in size.

Windows Explorer in 9x displays file sizes correctly when over 4GiB, but if you try to copy an over 4GiB file, it truncates the copy (remainder of file size divided by 4GiB).

From a command prompt, dir only lists a truncated file size, and the copy command only copies the truncated size.

xcopy fails with Warning: File too large to be copied

I have not yet devised a method of testing if an application can read the whole file, or whether it gets truncated, or wraps at the 4GiB point...

If anyone has any good ideas or some kind of testing tool to check access to over 4GiB files on an external file system on 9x, then please speak up! (or is that post up?)

[Lecco]

What about a video file that is over 4GBs ? Shouldnt be a problem to create one that big.

[RetroOS]

Thanks Lecco.

A video file could be a good idea since I can visually check if it's all there or if it wraps.

[ran]

I feel that this is worth bumping this topic even if it is nearly a year old!

The full version of Paragon NTFS for Win98 3.0.2.2 is currently available free of charge for read/write access.

NTFS for Win98 uses a single VxD solution with no dependancies on Microsoft NT files.

If is designated for non-commercial use only:

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-win98/

I've been testing it and so far it works well.

The installer warns you to disable Recycle Bin on the NTFS drive in Windows 9x.

If you don't, like I didn't, the Recycle Bin on the NTFS drive becomes corrupt and causes minor NTFS file system errors that requires chkdsk /f run from Windows XP.

Thanks a BUNCH!

This was just what I needed to send .wav files (~200-400mb in size) from an old Windows 98SE recording machine to an XP (NTFS) machine over the network to do the burning of the .wav files.

Ran

[sc7]

Well, here's the issue. First off, you'd never be able to run the OS from an NTFS drive, it would require far too major changes to the closed source kernel we don't have access to.

It's not very hard to write a program to read/write NTFS drives, maybe by the use of a simple virtual real mode driver.

However, when you speak of system wide NTFS support, you are talking a far more complex job. In order to natively support a different file system, and have explorer, amongst all Windows applications be able to write to NTFS as if it were nothing, you'd have to implement the support at the kernel level. Again, when you speak of file systems in the kernel, being closed source makes this a whole hell of a lot more difficult.

All of the GUI in Windows, including the applications, deal very little with the actual disk access of the operating system. How it works is that a basic write command in the code is sent (such as C++ or VB). When compiled, this code speaks to the APIs for that programming language, which are specifically written differently for each operating system to inferace with the kernel and other lower level code. It is THAT code, that then deals with the physical disk, and therefore, the file system. So the changes would have to be made at that level to pass up the benefits to all applications, and even Windows Explorer, which is just a basic Windows program, set as shell in boot.ini.

My guess as to why no one has bothered to implement this in Windows 98 is because it never really crossed paths that much when Windows NT began to rise up, and now, there's far too few Windows 98 active users where anyone would take the initiative, time, and energy required to make this undertaking.

[Guest wsxedcrfv]

Why anyone would want to subject a win-98 system to NTFS is beyond me. To take this even further, I make it a point to install XP on FAT-32 volumes (yes, even LARGE volumes with 4kb cluster size because it's a myth that cluster size has to increase ridiculously with volume size). It's very refreshing to have a dual-boot DOS7 / XP system and be able to browse your XP file system from a pure command shell.

Who (except for corporate or enterprise use) needs the extra baggage that NTFS gives? Permissions, user rights, files you can't delete or move around, hidden directories, root-kit compatibility, the performance hit from journalling. All for the birds. God help you if your MFT gets screwed up.

For the single user, non-administered, non networked, non-corporate PC, NTFS has no advantages over FAT32, and has some real disadvantages (cost and availability of partition recovery tools, for example).

Once upon a time, hard drives and associated drive controllers had some real reliability and performance issues. Automatic bad-sector detection and silent remapping in the drive didn't exist. But hard drives for the past, oh, 6 or 7 years are much better at bit-error rates and they also do bad-sector remapping. All that means that the auto-correction that NTFS was designed to do 10 to 15 years ago is no longer needed. FAT32 is just as "reliable" on todays hard drives as NTFS is. NTFS was designed partly to overcome the hard and soft errors that old drives were prone to experience. But those features are basically unnecessary on modern drives. The second primary goal of NTFS was file-system security in corporate or institutional settings (necessary to compete with unix systems). Again, that is completely unnecessary for the home/soho user.

[sc7]

Who (except for corporate or enterprise use) needs the extra baggage that NTFS gives? Permissions, user rights, files you can't delete or move around, hidden directories, root-kit compatibility, the performance hit from journalling. All for the birds. God help you if your MFT gets screwed up.

Lack of stability, and the inability to have files greater than 4GB strikes me first.

[BenoitRen]

Lack of stability is a myth.

[PROBLEMCHYLD]

Is the NTFS for Win98 Winternals V2 any good?

I really don't expect to write anything to a NTFS drive but you never know.

The read-only may be good.

[sp193]

I can't really remember too clearly, but I think that I DID try the Winternals NTFS for Windows 98, but I don't think that it was V2.... or maybe it was. I remember that it did need some real files from a legit Windows XP installation, but seemed to be quite stable. Although they said that it only has "Read-only" support, I think that it seemed that I could also write files to the NTFS drive (But I did not check whether the files were really written to the drive).

Also, I don't think that there was a problem with the recycle bin.

I tried it last year, and many details are quite hazy. So if anyone sees any incorrect information posted here by me, please correct me.

Lack of stability is a myth.

Yup, and if that was ever real, Windows 95/98 would not have become popular in it's year (Who buys an OS that causes you to lose data!?).

Edited November 3, 2009 by sp193