fahrenheit 9/11

[Doggie]

moore doesnt just pick on random people.. he does a lot of research in the US and abroad.. and his immaturity is cool, watch the Awful Truth series.. there true classics

[Phyridean]

His immaturity is cool to us, the young, liberal, (and often non-voting) public. That's why so few people trust him, because so many people are older and conservative...but they're the ones who cast the most votes.

[Radimus]

It isn't just that... It is a given that anyone that WANTS political power is by defination power-hungry and corrupt.

The real problem is Moore himself. While his can direct movies and such, he has cornered himself into "mock-umentaries". They may LOOK like the truth, but have enough 'artistic license' and 'assumptions' and in the worst case 'fabrications' to have little more substance than his personal opinions.

His skill in directing and story telling make it look like fact. If even a 1/10 of his stories against Bush were true, he'd have charges or congressional investigations against Bush. This hasn't happened, because the allegations are either false, misleading, or not a matter of law.

I am glad to see people watch the movie and get 'fired up' over it, the more intelligent or dilligent or even curious; will look into the stories, will read more news, will learn more of what is going on, and will form their OWN opinions... not just be lemmings following along whatever band wagon they get sucked into.

Back to Moore... It is easy to blame leadership, when you possess none of your own. It is even easier to do when by doing so you make a fortune. What would he do in the same place? He should show a better way if he has one.

On politics in general, and the middle east in particular. In for a penny, in for a pound. Now that the world in in the position that it is now, it only makes sense to carry on. If we are to blame America for 'Nation building" or whatever, at least we can say that at some point these countries will go their own way. Germany was let loose from the imperial control of Nato and the US after WWII and they are a leader of Europe now... and have no problem standing against the US or others as they see fit. A similar story for Japan... a bankrupt economy in the 30s and 40s and now they have a HUGE economy and is a leader in international business. The US also had a hand in the fall of the Soviet Union... and the Eastern Block countries are looking to a better future than what the USSR had for them in the 60s and 70s.

There may be concern over the passing of an older or more established way of life, but nothing lasts forever. One day the middle east will grow out of the pain and fear they are experiencing now and will celebrate their newest nationalism. There will always be malcontents (see the IRA and neo-nazis, and some christian fundalimentalists) but the future of the middle east will be better than the past, even if it takes 50 or 60 years... at least we can all hope so.

America may not have the perfect nation, and there may be concerns and internal conflicts, but I think the US has made more positives than negatives... at least are trying to.

[Phyridean]

On politics in general, and the middle east in particular. In for a penny, in for a pound. Now that the world in in the position that it is now, it only makes sense to carry on. If we are to blame America for 'Nation building" or whatever, at least we can say that at some point these countries will go their own way. Germany was let loose from the imperial control of Nato and the US after WWII and they are a leader of Europe now... and have no problem standing against the US or others as they see fit. A similar story for Japan... a bankrupt economy in the 30s and 40s and now they have a HUGE economy and is a leader in international business. The US also had a hand in the fall of the Soviet Union... and the Eastern Block countries are looking to a better future than what the USSR had for them in the 60s and 70s.

Of course, this is to say nothing of the regimes we've toppled, only to replace them with worse cases of civil rights violations (Cuba, Sudan, etc, etc). How do we know that Iraq will be different? We don't.

There may be concern over the passing of an older or more established way of life, but nothing lasts forever. One day the middle east will grow out of the pain and fear they are experiencing now and will celebrate their newest nationalism. There will always be malcontents (see the IRA and neo-nazis, and some christian fundalimentalists) but the future of the middle east will be better than the past, even if it takes 50 or 60 years... at least we can all hope so.

Frankly, and call me a pessimist if you want (which I very well may be), the "situation" in the middle east, which has existed quite literally from the metaphorical (though historically insignificant, as it happened elswhere prior to that) birth of civilization, will never be resolved. Neither side will ever believe what the other has to say, much like our extremely polarized political system.

So there, two more cents from someone who knows far too little about politics to really be posting here...

EDIT: Um, that would be me...not referring to anyone else...

[Radimus]

I know what you mean, and in many cases you are right... The US has supported one regime or another either with money or weapons or training, throughought the past for many reasons... and many administrations.

At one time the Roman Catholic church's Pope turned a blind eye to Nazi germany in the 30's and 40's and to human slavery during the 1800's and so on.

Russia supported Cuba, until we proved enough of a hindrance to the Soviets that they abandoned Castro and took back their missiles

Take Osama for instance, trained as a guerilla fighter by the CIA and provided weapons and money... why? He was fighting Russia then and that was the important thing at the time.

The US supported Saddam as he was a military/secular leader at the time and would oppose the religeous administrations in Syria and Iran.

Now the US has turned against Saddam and toppled that government that they helped to bring about and hopes to build a more democratic government. for many reasons. to relieve fanatical islamic extremists of a source of money, to hope that a free government would pose a positive influence in Iraq, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia

Needless to say all these policies change from administration to administration, Some try bribery, some resort to supporting insurgency/radicallism in a country, and recently it was militarily. The US has the luxury of making these rules... we have the money and military to make the rules as we go. At least for a while, as China is about the only remaining nation on the planet with the possibility of becoming a superpower to replace the Soviets

Hopefully the results of such meddling doesn't cause too many deaths (it always has and always will) and that the future purchased is worth the cost. Germany is a better place now than it was 50 years ago... and the differences between east and west germany 20 years ago was unbelievable... the Europe side vs the Soviet side. If in 50 years such a difference is apparent between Iraq and Iran, no one would question the justification of what the US did.

As a side note, just for thought. The whole middle east economy is basically tied to the export of oil. With the efforts into alternative fuels(hydrogen and ethanol) and more efficient combustion engines (hybrids) and new sources of oil, what would happen to their economy if there was a 20 or 25% reduction in their exports over the next 20 or 30 years. (even though plastics manufacturing is the #1 use of raw petroleum). Answer, International business insourcing. Everyone knows (and hates) that Dell and HP moved their helpdesks to India.. It will be hard to provide services to other nations if you have Jihads with your biggest prospective business customers

So to sum this all up:

Islamic extremism needs to be dealt with

Catholic priests need to stop molesting young boys

The IRA needs to ensure that Sinead o'Connor doesn't make another album

Toyota needs to get on the ball and make a Prius about $5,000 cheaper

and Michael Moore needs to go on a diet.

[Doggie]

lol ok guys, lets discuss the movie now

[kmf]

I thought that this was an interesting tidbit.

Moore rebuked

[kmf]

Well I downloaded it and watched it. There was no way I would ever pay to that movie. I would not one cent of my money to go to Michael Moore.

While I thought that certain points brought up in the movie were interesting, overall I was disgusted by the movie. Michael Moore needs to grow up and move out of his home in Fantasy Land.

I think that the movie is an assault on intelligence. The inflection of the Moore's narration made me think that he was speaking to children incapable of understanding such a complex issue.

I was particularly amazed by Moore's uses the troops for his personal agenda to make the point that President Bush is doing the same.

I was insulted by Mr. Moore's premise that the military is made up of the bottoms of society. This is not true and is an insult to every member of the US Military, past, present, and future.

I could go on and on, but the end of it all is that Moore is using what he paints as "The Bush Agenda" to further the Moore agenda.

[verlegenmanneke]

Before I went to that movie I saw on BBC a simular report.

I can only say to Michael Moore: Respect man, we need people like you

in this greedy world!

Remember when Bush attacked Iraq?! My country was against it.

We didn't fear the USA, like other European countries who were scared to

tell there opinion. Together with France and Germany we told our opinion.

And you know what Rumsfeld told about my little country??

"That we should shut up because we are a stupid little country that was saved

by the USA during WOII."

Ok about one thing we are greatfull (WOII), without America our country

and Europe would be still in Nazi's hands.

(but it does not explain anything about attacking Iraq)

My country may be small and little on the european map. But in Brussels

our capital we have the center off Europe, the European Parlement.

We are very inportant for Europe, economically.

Bush we don't want you back for a visit in Belgium, we don't

respect dictators! Go fishing!

America deserves someone who's fair with his people!

[SiMoNsAyS]

@verlegenmanneke i agree with you, i'll try to watch that film as soon as i could

and about WWII, if someone wants some credit for it, that someone don't deserve it. i still wonder how people can guess "i am the savours of the world" like it was demostrated on the annual D-Day celebration.

[kmf]

Bush is a dictator. I bet John Kerry wishes someone had told him that before he spent all his money on his presidential campaign.

The US left alot of dead soldiers on the D-Day invasion. I take it the Spanish part of the D-Day anniversary wasn't very big?

[SiMoNsAyS]

lol i think this is a good thread to take the 400 posts. firstly i must say that when i talked about usa i don't talk about all the people who live in usa so don't take it like something personal. then you probably don't know anything about spain and i must clarify you that from 1936-1939 we got a civilian war and from 1939-1975 we got a dictator governing this country, that it's the reason why we didn't take part in the WWII. second i can repeat me if you want, i'm sure all the world was pleasant to see that usa entered the world, but was a few years later the war started, so i guess usa feel scared about 3/4 of the world being nazis and that's why it took part on it. i personally give thanks to everyone that supported in that war but i hate people that today want to take some credit telling us "yes we save all the world so be thankful and don't opposite us never". i always loved ideals on usa but nowdays they aren't defended too well.

sorry at all know i see that i'm going off topic so back again...

[kmf]

My OWN view is this:

Before America entered the war in Europe, America sent supplies to its allies in Europe for several years.

America went to went to war with Germany, a country that never attacked us (just like Iraq never attacked us Mr. Moore states in the movie). Almost all of Europe was under Nazi rule. Britain was in shambles from all the Luftwaffe bombing raids.

America's entrance to the war turned the tide of the war against Germany. I have no doubt in my mind that there would have been a very different outcome if America had only went after Japan and left Europe alone. America lost alot of good men from what many consider to be its greatest generation. How familys/generations never existed because they were killed fighting against the Nazi's? I feel that this is not just a loss to America but to the whole world as no one will ever know who could have arisen from those lost.

When America was gearing up for this war it was looking for support from "friends it helped before". Most of these friends turned their back on America. But that was not all they did. They went on to criticise America and call for UN sanctions against America. They still continue to do so. Some countries that were against the war opposed for their own agenda as they were involved in transactions with Iraq that were banned by UN resolutions.

A large portion of Americans feel betrayed by these actions by "friends".

[SiMoNsAyS]

A large portion of Americans feel betrayed by these actions by "friends".

...and back to offtopic...

i don't want to reply you let's just leave it but it's amazing the things a person in america can think and what different it's the world from here. i don't agree with you in anything so i won't try to explain me again...

anyway i'll try to support michael moore's film because i think it's an honorable man that isn't proud about "what people against me think"

[kmf]

I said just leave it the other post but you kept on posting.

How do you know that Michael Moore is "an honorable man"? Do you know him personally? Other than making this movie what else do you know about him?

Like I said, there were some interesting points made in the movie but overall I was disgusted by it.

Michael Moore portrayed America's military as being made up of only the dregs of society and that is not true. There are many highly educated and skilled people in the US military that do one hell of a job. They have done more than Michael Moore will do in his life.

Moore just doesn't tell you all the facts.

Michael Moore points out that President Bush invaded Iraq, a country that never attacked the US. Germany, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Panama, Grenada, and Iraq (when they invaded Kuwait) never attacked the US either but we had military action against all of those countries.

Mr. Moore also points out the inability of the media to show the coffins of dead soldiers returning from Iraq. He fails to point out that this law was introduced by the Clinton administration after Clinton sent troops to Bosnia (even though we were not attacked by them). Anyone who says that Clinton had good reason for the military action, the 200,000+ people dead there do to the ethnic cleansing. I just want to let you that they have found over 400,000 dead in mass graves in Iraq.

Moore also talks about the Saudi royal family and their relationship with the Bush family. Every US president has had relations with the Saudi royal family since oil was discovered in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has the world's largest oil reserve in the world. You would be very naive to think that when King Fahd speaks only the Bush’s listen.

Mr. Moore points out the fact that the Saudi ambassador has several US Secret Service guards assigned to him. I want to know how many, if any, they had under Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon.

I could go on and on but to think that Fahrenheit 9/11 is a documentary is ridiculous. It is a movie that was pieced together out of many edited things to show Michael Moore’s dislike of President Bush.