Here's final proof why IE sucks

[DarkPhoenix]

(Why do I like people that are against me? Most likely cause I love debate, and it takes a person opposing my views to get a debate going... in other words, you're cool neosapience.. yah, and you too mutahir.. but don't go thinking this is propaganda for making you like me more. *hehe*)

You're missing the point. Just because someone follows the W3C guidelines it does NOT make them more 'right'. TCP/IP and HTTP are protocols and, guess what, not everyone uses them. You need to realize that there were other 'suggestions' that people didn't like. Can you guess why TCP and HTTP became dominant?

Yeah, I know they are protocols... I just blurted out with the first things I could come up with. It could've been a formal letter standard for all that matters. TCP most likely became dominant because most people chose to use it.. I know of the IPX and what was it.. NetBIOS standards that are choices in old DOS games for muliplayer... I think NetBIOS still lives though (not my game really.. isn't that what the file sharing in LANs are based on?). And HTTP had competition too, by stuff like Gopher and CompuServe... but HTTP was by far the most useful one.. and so it won. At least that's what I think happened. That's what I've read.

You're suggesting that what MS is doing with IE is wrong.

I feared it might be interpreted that way cause I used police and criminals as examples.. It was, once again, the first thing I came up with.. my point was, if we leave examples out, that everybody else try their best to follow the web standards. (which makes the web, as the W3C calls it, interoperable) So why can't just Microsoft do the same? That's the real question. It wouldn't be hard for them, and the W3C standards are very carefully thought out, by many people, and when correctly implemented, and correctly used (by authors), you can make wonderful designs, neat effects and so forth with it. And it will work with all browsers that follow their standards. That's the idea of a standard... that everyone, no matter which browser, OS or even which disabilities they have, should be able to enjoy the internet and the web equally.

I have never said anything bad about Mozilla or Opera.

Yeah, I know.. unlike me with IE. After all though, I am biased. You seem more neutral. I don't want to be though.. I dislike IE. Mostly because it proves that as long as enough people use something, no matter how bad it is, it's the most accepted practice.

But if they don't rush to keep up with the suggested CSS standards, I'm sure it's simply because they have more important things to deal with.

True... though I thought they had their own IE team... really, I read today that Bill Gates has more money than Norway spends in a whole year... ... so he could've afforded it.

If you like Mozilla (or whatever) and it works for you, by all means, use it. Just remember, programmers will always support the most dominant browser, and that's IE. So guess what the internet will look like when you use Mozilla?

Actually, I still haven't seen a page that looks bad in Mozilla.. although I usually surf around CSS and XHTML resources, where people usually do correct coding... but I also visit bad pages... where this mode called Quirks mode kicks in, and sorta repairs the errors with the site as best it can.

[neosapience]

(Why do I like people that are against me?  Most likely cause I love debate, and it takes a person opposing my views to get a debate going... in other words, you're cool neosapience.. yah, and you too mutahir.. but don't go thinking this is propaganda for making you like me more. *hehe*)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But when you bash a program that other people use and like, you're asking for an argument.

Yeah, I know they are protocols... I just blurted out with the first things I could come up with. It could've been a formal letter standard for all that matters. TCP most likely became dominant because most people chose to use it.. I know of the IPX and what was it.. NetBIOS standards that are choices in old DOS games for muliplayer... I think NetBIOS still lives though (not my game really.. isn't that what the file sharing in LANs are based on?). And HTTP had competition too, by stuff like Gopher and CompuServe... but HTTP was by far the most useful one.. and so it won. At least that's what I think happened. That's what I've read

My point is exactly that - people usually use whatever works best. MS doesn't ignore things that are important, they're just a tad slow sometimes.

So why can't just Microsoft do the same? That's the real question. It wouldn't be hard for them, and the W3C standards are very carefully thought out, by many people, and when correctly implemented, and correctly used (by authors), you can make wonderful designs, neat effects and so forth with it.

What MS needs is more competition, not more regulation. Which would you find more motivating - someone trying to bully you into doing a better job, or someone trying to do a better job than you? The fact of the matter is, CSS is not that important. MS is currently focusing on security and functionality.

Yeah, I know.. unlike me with IE.  After all though, I am biased. You seem more neutral. I don't want to be though.. I dislike IE. Mostly because it proves that as long as enough people use something, no matter how bad it is, it's the most accepted practice.

Unfortunately, most people have the 'if it doesn't work, use something else' mentality. I preffer to fix the things I use, rather than switching to a whole new system. If I can't fix it, then I'll move on. So far, IE hasn't had any problems I couldn't deal with.

I read today that Bill Gates has more money than Norway spends in a whole year...  ... so he could've afforded it.

Most of Bill Gates' money is tied up in his company. In a business model, if you throw money at one project, you'll end up taking it away from another. Like I said, it's all a matter of priorities with them.

Actually, I still haven't seen a page that looks bad in Mozilla.. although I usually surf around CSS and XHTML resources, where people usually do correct coding... but I also visit bad pages... where this mode called Quirks mode kicks in, and sorta repairs the errors with the site as best it can.

Most people aren't tech oriented like us. They browse sites like launch.com, which simply doesn't work with Mozilla.

Anyway, I understand your point of view. MS is lazy and IE doesn't do what you want it to.

I find it's better to try and help people with problems, than to simply ignore them in favor of less problematic people.

[DarkPhoenix]

What MS needs is more competition, not more regulation. Which would you find more motivating - someone trying to bully you into doing a better job, or someone trying to do a better job than you? The fact of the matter is, CSS is not that important. MS is currently focusing on security and functionality.

Unfortunately, if I may say so, Microsoft won't be getting much competition as long as all of the larger companies keep adjusting their sites and programs to Microsoft's methods. Something that would've been really amusing would be if some, or many of all the larger sites just collectively started working against Microsoft, by for instance making their web pages with so new standards that it'd look like crap in IE. After all, if everybody did it, it'd convince more people to switch browser. The real problems, if you ask me, are these:

• Too many sites adjust to Microsoft IE
  
• There are no ads for other browsers
  
• There are no lobbyists that work for the use of other browsers
  

I mean, imagine the effect it would have if Google started showing Mozilla ads on some pages. I'm darned convinced that it'd cause at least some people to switch. The trouble is to make them actually read why it is better and so forth. And what about lobbyists? Professionals "lurking" in the halls of big companies, telling them stuff. I betcha, Microsoft does this all the time.

Most people aren't tech oriented like us. They browse sites like launch.com, which simply doesn't work with Mozilla.

Well, I'd say. The moron who programmed that page is most likely below average. Just the source code of this page makes the tech part of my brain go wacky..

Well, there's one way to circumvent Mozilla's

Error

Sorry, we do not support Netscape on the Windows platform.

Error Code: 25 - 0

message... or Opera's

Error

Sorry, we are unable to support this browser at this time.

Error Code: 12 - 0

Here it is, Launch.com Radio, possible to open in all browsers.. it won't play music in anything else than IE though, but if you take a small peek at the source code, you'll most likely get as dizzy as I got. And you'll most likely also understand why it doesn't work in anything else than IE. Though I'm sure it could if the dork(s) who made it thought it out a little more carefully. It just uses Windows Media Player as a base, and I've had that work in both Mozilla and Opera before.

Anyway, I understand your point of view. MS is lazy and IE doesn't do what you want it to.

Yep.. there's really not much more to it.

I find it's better to try and help people with problems, than to simply ignore them in favor of less problematic people.

What do you mean? I'm trying to help people. On my web pages I always tell them that my page won't work with IE, and tell them why they should switch into something better. It may not help immediately, but there are others who also do this, and when enough people do it, there may be a possibility that people "See the light". After all, whenever I visit friends, and I see them use IE, I tell them that there are better ways to surf, and show them Opera or Mozilla, and I can say that 90% of the people I've helped switch browser are grateful that I did. The only problem is that I have to be there in person.. it seems that just telling people in a note on a web page won't help much.

[neosapience]

Unfortunately, if I may say so, Microsoft won't be getting much competition as long as all of the larger companies keep adjusting their sites and programs to Microsoft's methods. Something that would've been really amusing would be if some, or many of all the larger sites just collectively started working against Microsoft, by for instance making their web pages with so new standards that it'd look like crap in IE...

That's not the kind of competition I'm talking about. In fact, if people did that it would be called 'unfair business practice'. In order to beat MS, the competition has to start distributing their browsers along with new computers, which isn't going to be easy. To the average consumer, ease of use is far more important than web standards. IE is by far the easiest browser to use, simply because it's part of Windows. Besides, most people couldn't care less what browser they're using, it's the content on the websites they want. IE is capable of displaying that conent just as easily as any other browser. Like I said, MS has more important things to worry about than aesthetics.

What do you mean? I'm trying to help people. On my web pages I always tell them that my page won't work with IE, and tell them why they should switch into something better...

This is exactly the type of thinking I don't like. "If it doesn't work, throw it away and use something else". If your car didn't work, would you go to england and buy a different one? Of course not, it's not practical. You'd spend a ton of money just to have your steering wheel on the wrong side of the car. It's far easier just to fix the car you have and keep it running. Programs are the same way. In fact, MS has just announced that they are re-constituting the Windows IE team. Why? Because it's better for them to fix IE, rather than try and switch to Mozilla.

The main problem with the W3C changing web standards has to do with existing websites. If everyone switched to Mozilla, there would suddenly be a lot of messed up content. Like it or not, MS has already set the internets standards.

[mutahir]

Well, This is going on and on

But its interesting ...

what i would say is ... that Microsoft on its own is a superb software vendor...

They have brought a charm in pc's ...

As dark phoenix is mentioning that it won't happen, the competition thing...the reason can be that they are too busy in finding bugs and throwing dirt over microsoft, so how can they do a creative thing when they are doing this...

and Yes you are right NEO, that its going to be a unfair business practice if they tried to do so, and they have done a similar sort of thing in the past, which proves that they are accepting that they are nothing infront of microsoft....LOL

well, to be honest, SUN microsystems has its own uniqunes, oracle, ibm, microsoft, they are all pioneers, Microsoft got famous and famous coz they targeted the home market, which includes ppl from all walks and age of life...kids,adults and all...

Now sun is saying that they have launched there Java desktop system and its quite interesting to see there net talk event on the website...i'll post the link of that website so that you can watch as well, they mention again and again microsoft, microsoft, and the good thing they have done is that they had made it interoperable to microsoft in many ways, So Now this is the start of a competition for MS and SUN, that who rules or who gets the most share of the desktop market...

coz they are betting on there SUN OFFICE, i haven't used it....but as far as iam concerned When i see Microsoft office i can't think of anything more then that:)

But, now its time for the giants to think about each other and Home user's to get benefit

Lets c....

But dark phoenix, Neo is saying right that Ms has set the standards

Best of Luck to Microsoft and Thumbs UP!!!

Take care and take it easy

Mutahir

[DarkPhoenix]

The fact that you guys have your opinions is cool and all, we're all entitled to one.. what really bothers me, is that nobody has yet agreed with me... it's a shame... especially since I figured there'd be more techies and true geeks on this site, some who were somewhat non-mainstream. I can't stand ignorance, and no offense, but using MSIE unconditionally without even having tried any other browsers is in my eyes a grand example of ignorance. I don't know if you're doing that mutahir, but I guess neosapience doesn't, since he appears to have tried Mozilla with launch.com or something like that... anyway, I'm just a little put off by the fact that I appear to be alone with my opinions.. or then again, those who agree may not see a reason to post.. I don't know.

[mutahir]

Darkphoenix:)

You are taking me wrong here, i have used firefox, mozilla, thunderbird,

but don't know why still i like IE , it may be the fact that iam no techie like you...or it may be the fact that they do really make some nice piece of software :)kidding ok...

well, now being serious, i still like internet explorer...and outlook and outlook express.....thunderbird i dont like it, don't know why

but you are quite true in ur own opinion....

and I wish one day you will release a browser which works the way internet standards were meant to be...Best of Luck friend..take care May You be successful..

take care

Mutahir

[mutahir]

Sorry for the post again..

don't feel put off....i didn't questioned your opinion, rather i was trying to mention that as we have a way to do things, MS has one way as well, so as other vendors...

let MS do what they want to do...and let the other ppl who want to compete do what they want to do...instead of throwing dirt over them... now don't take it personal,

take care

Mutahir

[neosapience]

I have used almost every browser that's been made. I ran a popular freeware site for years and I made sure it worked with almost every browser (even WebTV!).

Why do I like IE? It's quite simple. See, I visit HUNDREDS of different websites every week. I've used Mozilla and Opera to do my daily browsing, at it sucked - forms problems, display errors, coding snafus. Mozilla may be standards complaint, but the internet sure isn't. Not to mention the fact that I use programs that ONLY work with IE. IE is also integrated into Windows, which offers even more options (Holy crap does Mozillas bookmarks SUCK).

Without IE I would be a very unhappy camper.

[Denney]

Time for my input I guess...

I have used Firefox, Mozilla, Opera and a whole lot of other browers (including MyIE2), so why do I still use Internet Explorer?

Compatibility! You will find that the higher majority of websites are compatible with IE... More sites support IE that any other browser.

My ISP for instance, supports only Windows and IE... They won't provide support for Linux or Mozilla, Opera and Firefox. I know that's only one example but I'm sure many more companies only support IE and nothing else.

IE might suck on those websites but what about the MAJOR sites that general Joe Blo might visit... Like google.com, yahoo.com, msn.com, launch.com, etc. They're all built to be compatible with IE. If all the major sites suddenly started to build to the standard, I'm sure that Microsoft would update their brower.

I think Microsoft hasn't updated they browser because they don't see a need. I don't use multi-tabbed browsers, I don't use a sophisticated favorites list... I have no need for the extra stuff in Mozilla, Firefox and Opera.

I will admit that the other browsers are better at rendering websites that require them but for the most part, all the websites Joe Blo will visit will work perfectly. I am yet to find a website that I browse frequently that doesn't render right.

I think IE is actually more compliant with the WEBSITES you view rather than the W3C recommendation... As you said, you found those websites only by SEARCHING for them on Google... How many people are going to search specifically for websites that won't work in IE?

If one day, you stumble across a website you found with some actual content on it and it doesn't display correctly in IE, let me know... And websites that have coding examples for other websites in the don't count. I'm thinking more along the lines of, say, a shopping website or scientific documents from a university.

Overall, the point of this post it to say that sure, IE may suck, but how can you argue with the majority of websites/users who support and use IE.

Ah... well, that was fun... now onto something else...

[enuffsaid]

removed

[Nathaniel]

Don't worry darkpheonix, you're not alone, there are plenty of people who don't use ie...like me

Firefox (v0.8) is the best browser i've used by far...it displays about 99% of pages i visit without a problem, for the other 1 or 2% i just open up ie up for it.

I honestly can't see how someone can pass up firefox (or at least not be anticipating it's 1.0 release, as atm it still has a few bugs) the the tab system, the minimalist feel, the ease of use, security...and most of all the plugins.

things like cookie culler, so you can save forum cookies and delete all the other junk.

session saver (tabbrowser is actually better) so if the browser crashes or you have to restart or duck out for a second all you have to do is restart your browser and all those pages will still be there.

middle click mouse button to close tabs, and in a blank space to reload a tab you closed by mistake.

and of course, where would i be without my precious foobar controls sitting next to the sickle in the top right corner.

Has sped up my brosing ten fold, crashes much less, i get zero spyware, whereas with ie i get heaps...whats not to like, a couple of crappy sites, pfft takes me all of 5 seconds to open up ie and paste the address into it.

As for people saying microsoft are just slow, and the standards aren't important, well, thats just rediculous, Microsoft try to steal everything by grabbing marketshare and then changing things to use their hacked/propietry versions "insert standards/software/code here" so that everyone will have to use their software, even though MS didn't create the **** thing in the first place. (Java was a perfect example of them trying to do exactly this)

Now i don't have a problem with Microsoft bundling IE or whatever in their OS, but didn't they actually tell the courts that they couldn't remove ie from the shell? hmm, i thought lying to courts was a crime, most people/companies get fined/jailed don't they? strange that this hasn't happened to Microsoft....

Sorry if i'm sounding anti MS, it's just that, to think that they aren't doing things like "following standards" because they have other things to worry about is rediculous, they are doing it on purpose...it's much much easier to follow standards than to create your own 99% of the time, yet Microsoft decide to create their own 99% of the time...go figure.

[SiMoNsAyS]

DarkPhoenix i agree with you in all (or many) points. i think IE it's the "best" because it's the most used (obviously because it's integrated in the main OS and if i go for first time on inet probably i will use IE, why go further??). another thing it's that IE have no popup blocking so most of the pages will be optimized to the most used and "eat-ads" browser.

having this clear i can say that for the easy of use, services and speed i will always prefer firefox (mozilla based browsers). if any1 of u don't think the same go ckeck for reviews, some will prefer opera others mozilla firefox but iexplorer will be always the last

[DarkPhoenix]

Why thank you guys, finally a little support.

I also use IE to view sites I can't view correctly with Mozilla and Opera, but why should I have to do that? If everybody just followed standards, I could actually uninstall IE and live without it.. but it's like a parasite, crawling under my skin, begging me to use it cause it "supports" everything.

And SiMoNsAyS, at least be sure to put "best" in quotes like you did, cause a better word for it would be "currently most compatible". IE is far from being best.

As for Firefox, I'll most likely switch from the ordinary Mozilla to it once it crosses the 1.0 barrier (thus I am anticipating it ).

And yeah, Nathaniel, that about Microsoft and stealing marketshare and disobeying standards on purpose is more than likely to be the truth. Your examples are good. And Microsoft doesn't only lie in court.. They claim over and over that they actually follow web-standards.. it's silly.

[neosapience]

Ok, I time to put your money where your mouth is. All I've heard so far is complaints with no proof of anything. I want examples of why Mozilla is better of IE. Something tangable would be nice, but specific examples will be fine.

But first, let me cover a few things -

Display issues - I've already covered this. IE has already set the standards. If you want a browser that is compliant with CSS3, give me a good reason why it NEEDS to be.

ActiveX - This is a known security problem for IE. But it can be TURNED OFF with no real consequence.

Tabbed Browsing - Try MyIE2, it makes FireFox seem underdeveloped.

Popups and other ads - What, you don't use Googles toolbar? You don't have a proxy based HTML filter like the Proxomitron to block those crappy flash ads? Don't blame IE for this. These, and many similar programs, have been around for YEARS. They work with IE and with Mozilla. In fact, the Proxomitron is way better than any ad filtering program ever made because you can make your own HTML filters. That means you can filter ANYTHING out.

So, let me see those examples.