Windows 98 fanless laptop

[jaclaz]

13 hours ago, awkduck said:

I don't know how the, variable speed, fans are wired. I think they are three pin. There may be a way to trick the bios. It may be enough to just pass the post test. It doesn't seem like they test all speeds and performance. I haven't played with it yet. I have a T40 I could test on, or maybe a T41; if it is functional.

They are likely PWM fans.

You can make a circuit to fake the signal (example here):

https://hardforum.com/threads/generate-fan-rpm-signal-w-o-fan.1606397/

https://www.techidiots.net/notes/fake-fan-sensor

But there are pre-made commercial solutions, google for "fan spoofer" or "fan simulator" (used for oil-immersed cooling, often miners).

Of course YMMV.

jaclaz

[awkduck]

@jaclaz Very good. That would do it. I agree with the idea of the 5k pot. Although, the older three pin fans may not be that picky.

[sonyu]

@jaclaz @awkduck thanks

maybe I can underclock one Acer 5315 I have from 2006, I don't remember the Intel gpu it have, maybe GM965 ? Does it have w98 drivers? The fan from this model turns on and off automatically so it's not always on.. maybe this can be underclocked

anway... I prefer a fanless one rather than a fake signal.. I have investigated this in the past

Ok, there is no Libretto 100CT alternative netbook with same hardware + more ram and fanless, right?

so going back to the available fanless options, maybe I can buy fanless one (so not a high cpu) and  buy a PCMCIA GPU (so I can have a 1920x1080 monitor connected when I need more resolution and 3D)

https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=47417

Yes, I didn't know this exists...

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by sonyu

[sonyu]

@awkduck I have also seen Dell CPx 

with this FAN at the back, does it has variable speed?

It really has a big heatsink, maybe the fan speed can be lowered a bit

 

Maybe I can make some holes so that it doesn't heat so much?

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by sonyu

[sonyu]

@awkduck

Do you think VBEMP can enable VGA output (dongle) on VAIO P11Z ? Intel GMA 500

 

__ 

Long story short, the only "new" compatible netbooks with windows 98 are:

VIA C7 chipset VX700

like VIA NanoBook UMD

Astone UMPC

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by sonyu

[awkduck]

19 hours ago, sonyu said:

maybe GM965 ? Does it have w98 drivers?

Not for the 965GM. For 865g*, yes.

19 hours ago, sonyu said:

Ok, there is no Libretto 100CT alternative netbook with same hardware + more ram and fanless, right?

There is an awful lot of machines, in the world. But there is nothing, at the tip of my tongue.

19 hours ago, sonyu said:

buy a PCMCIA GPU

I haven't seen any, that would provide Win9x 3D acceleration. There was mention of a Trio64, but I don't think that chip is going to do what you want (too old).

19 hours ago, sonyu said:

Maybe I can make some holes so that it doesn't heat so much?

Maybe, and this is a big maybe, you could replace the heatsink and just unplug the fan. Though, this is custom work. A micrometer would be nice, to let you decide how much space you have.

If the replacement was all copper, and maybe even covered a larger area, you might not need the fan.

The copper bar, on the heatsink, is a "heat rail". It is designed to transfer the heat, to where it can be cooled. It goes to a pretty small aluminum finned cube, that the air vents through. Compare this to modern designs, and the amount of heat being dealt with is much less. You might be able to get away with a full aluminum/graphite heatsink. But copper would improve your chances.

Essentially, I'm trying to point out how small/thin the copper heat railing is. By modern standard, that doesn't move much heat.

I think this is a "Pentium II"? It is a given, that desktop CPUs are more powerful and run hotter then their laptop CPU siblings. Not very often did the desktop slot "Pentium II" CPUs have fans. They just had a fair amount of aluminum on them. I've never had a desktop socket "Pentum II", but I am sure they only had fans because of the smaller heatsink. Some slot "Pentium III" CPUs had no fan.

So you only have a fan, because of the small space and the cost of copper.

Edit: This is an interesting idea, for a heat sink. The Wyse Cx0 has a vent, right above that. If you think about the Toughbook CF-18, it has a flat aluminum heat sink; it spreads out under the keyboard. The CF-18 has no vents. I can't remember which model, but I've seen a Toughbook using nothing but copper heat/thermal railing, for cooling. It has something like an "X" design, with the center over the CPU/GPU area.

There are options for utilizing the space you have. The "X" design could branch out, where ever you have space. But the Wyse Cx0 design might be easier to mount. Laptops using screws, to mount the heaksink, may make the job easier; just re-use the same screw posts and maybe even screws. A mod that does not alter the device, makes it easy to restore the original configuration.

18 hours ago, sonyu said:

Do you think VBEMP can enable VGA output (dongle) on VAIO P11Z ? Intel GMA 500

On some of my machines, if you select external display (bios), it works just fine. Display cloning also works; when its a bios option. It is less likely to work, through "Display Settings". Dual independent display, may not be an option.

Edited March 13, 2023 by awkduck

[awkduck]

I have thought about using the "Mini PCI-E", from a laptop Wifi module. You can get a "Mini PCI-E" ribbon, to make it an external interface. Then you would need something to convert it to PCI-E, and connect to something like this. Then you could "potentially" use a Win9x PCI video card.

Or maybe something with this, this, or this.

I've had some laptops that won't pass post, unless the original device is installed. But not that many.

Otherwise, I have no idea it this would work.

It doesn't help, if you are on the go. If it worked, it would provide an option for at home.

Older laptops use "Mini PCI". That might work too, but I wonder if vendors did more non-standard things.

[sonyu]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:22 AM, awkduck said:

@sonyu I found a couple of fanless laptops, near Win98 era. They are a bit bulky and most have no Win9x 3D support. The ToughBook and Getac laptops are mostly fanless. They have some Centrino Pentium-M and Core 2 Duo machines. The Core 2 Duo machines would probably need USB audio. The Pentium-M machines have AC97, and audio should work find with Win9x.

If you hunted, you might find a Panasonic ToughBook CF-28. It supposedly has an "Intel 830MG (Win9x 3D compatible)". They range between 1Ghz and 800Mhz. But it is a Pentium III. However, I bet it would run circles around the Wyse laptop. But the real problem would be the resolution. A 1024x768 maximum, with some models only supporting a 800x600 maximum. I guess it depends if it is a touchscreen or not.

They are probably not going to reach the display sizes you've mentioned. And they all have strange harddrive caddies. If you don't have a caddie, you can't install a harddrive. This is unlike many other laptop brands, where the caddie is more like a guide. These caddies have the drive connector in them. The caddie then connects to some a non standard connector, inside the laptop.

@awkduck

Do you know if there is an alternative to CF-28 like these fanless laptops compatible with Windows 9x but with a VGA port in laptop ? (vga port for these are on the dockin station)

Panasonic Toughbook CF-M33

Panasonic Toughbook CF-M34

https://panasonic.fandom.com/wiki/CF-M33

https://panasonic.fandom.com/wiki/CF-M34

 

 

1024x768 will be good. Doesn't matter if it's 800x600 I knwo it's the standard back in the day. I prefer fanless than 1024.

https://history-computer.com/panasonic-toughbook-full-history-of-the-toughest-laptop/

https://download.milesburton.com/Libretto/www.fixup.net/tips/cfm32.htm (comparison)

http://laptop.pics/panasonic-toughbook-cf-m34/

 

Thanks

Edit: I just found Thinkpad 560ED doesn't have a fan, but can only support 80mb of ram and screen support only 64k colors...  well I can change the screen by the one in the 560Z model

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_560

Just discovered MITSUBISHI PEDION today, an ultrabook that runs WIndows 9x native. My life won't be the same.

http://insight.actapricot.org/insight/products/notebook/pedion/ped-main.htm

https://wiki.preterhuman.net/index.php?title=Mitsubishi_Pedion&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by sonyu

[awkduck]

8 hours ago, sonyu said:

Do you know if there is an alternative to CF-28 like these fanless laptops compatible with Windows 9x but with a VGA port in laptop ? (vga port for these are on the dockin station)

The CF-28 is fanless and supports Win9x 3D Acceleration (i8xx series GPU).

The closest one to the CF-28, that I know of, is the CF-18. But some come with i915 (no Win9x 3D acceleration) and others with i8xx (Win9x 3D acceleration compatible). You have to be careful when buying one. The issue is that you don't often (if ever) find one over 1.2Ghz. Some, with the i8xx, come between 800Mhz and 1.2Ghz. I have seen one, with the i815, advertised at 1.6Ghz; but I think they must have made a typo, or something. It was the only one I've ever seen.

Both the CF-18 and CF-28 come with external VGA ports. Most older Toughbook/Toughpads do. One thing that the CF-18 does not have, is a parallel port (the CF-28 does). Both have a serial port.

I should point out that the CF-28 is Pentium III, and the top CPU speed is 1Ghz (some are slower). The CF-18 is Pentium-M. I haven't done any benchmarks, but an 800Mhz Pentium-M might out perform a 1Ghz Pentium-III. Also, the CF-28 tops out at 512Mb of ram. The CF-18 at 1.5Gb. The CF-28 is also running with USB1.1, and the CF-18 is at USB2.0.

There is a part number, on the bottom of these ToughBooks, that may help determine what GPU the laptop has. If you are looking on Ebay, some seller might not know how to find out what the GPU model is. So there is a chance, if they provide that model number (pictures), that you can find out yourself; provided they are selling you the one in the picture. You've gotta watch out, when some one is selling more than one. I've learned that the hard way, when buying thin clients.

[sonyu]

12 hours ago, awkduck said:

The CF-28 is fanless and supports Win9x 3D Acceleration (i8xx series GPU).

The closest one to the CF-28, that I know of, is the CF-18. But some come with i915 (no Win9x 3D acceleration) and others with i8xx (Win9x 3D acceleration compatible). You have to be careful when buying one. The issue is that you don't often (if ever) find one over 1.2Ghz. Some, with the i8xx, come between 800Mhz and 1.2Ghz. I have seen one, with the i815, advertised at 1.6Ghz; but I think they must have made a typo, or something. It was the only one I've ever seen.

Both the CF-18 and CF-28 come with external VGA ports. Most older Toughbook/Toughpads do. One thing that the CF-18 does not have, is a parallel port (the CF-28 does). Both have a serial port.

I should point out that the CF-28 is Pentium III, and the top CPU speed is 1Ghz (some are slower). The CF-18 is Pentium-M. I haven't done any benchmarks, but an 800Mhz Pentium-M might out perform a 1Ghz Pentium-III. Also, the CF-28 tops out at 512Mb of ram. The CF-18 at 1.5Gb. The CF-28 is also running with USB1.1, and the CF-18 is at USB2.0.

There is a part number, on the bottom of these ToughBooks, that may help determine what GPU the laptop has. If you are looking on Ebay, some seller might not know how to find out what the GPU model is. So there is a chance, if they provide that model number (pictures), that you can find out yourself; provided they are selling you the one in the picture. You've gotta watch out, when some one is selling more than one. I've learned that the hard way, when buying thin clients.

First of all, thanks, this is gold for me.

Ok I can see both CF-18 Models as you say @awkduck:

- 82852/82855 GM/GME Graphics Controller 
- Mobile Intel(R) 915GM/GMS,910GML Express Chipset Family

but... are you sure I'll have 3D acceleration ? Cause I have read this regarding to "Intel(R) 82852/82855 GM/GME Graphics Controller":

" -Driver does NOT support 3D acceleration it appears; attempting to play 3D games displays a glitched screen. "
( https://retrosystemsrevival.blogspot.com/2019/06/intel-945gm-display-driver-for-windows.html )

_

I guess the Panasonic thoughbooks are the only fanless laptops with Pentium M & 82852/82855 GM/GME Graphics Controller, due to the metal case, right? Or these is a fanless smaller laptop with same/similar cpu&graphics?

Edited September 1, 2023 by sonyu

[awkduck]

Many Intel GPUs don't produce as much heat. The "Rugged" brand of Toughbooks have a heat spreader, about the size of and underneath of the keyboard. The cases hard surface is just to make it more durable.

If you do buy one, make sure it comes with the Harddrive caddy. Unlike some common laptops, you cannot install a Harddrive without the caddy. The laptop's harddrive interface uses a special connector; the caddy comes with the adapter for it.

I have not used the 855 GPU myself. But I have seen many "Win9x" drivers for it. It is the "Intel Extreme Graphics 2" integrated graphics processor. I've been planning to buy one myself, for some time. It should perform good, for Retro 3D. The audio chipset is AC97 "Sigmatel". In real dos you can use SMEMU for Soundblaster emulation (no 16bit protected mode, only real and 32bit protected mode). In Windows many Dos Games will work with audio (must use WDM audio driver). But some will only partially work, like Wolf3D. You can either use and SDL1.2 port of those games (if available), or use real Dos with SBEMU. Games like Doom and Quake worked with audio inside windows. This is because of the music being on the Disc/ISO (ReadBook).

[pangoomis]

82852/82855 GM/GME Graphics Controller = Intel Extreme Graphics 2, latest Intel GPU compatible with 98SE, latest drivers are here: https://download.asrock.com/Drivers/Intel/VGA/VGA_ME_98(13.6.1.3732).zip

It does have 3D Acceleration, it's not great but passable, haven't really played with it much but it's better than having to use VBEMP...

[sonyu]

@awkduck

And the universe answers sometimes...

 

WELCOME TO THE FUTURE...

 

....DREAMS (are starting to...) COME TRUE: POCKET 386 !!

looks promising. Ok, we need a bit more power... waiting for the pentium mmx or 486 version

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVgITS8aLzc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSjvwrfvP4

 

 

Edited June 1 by sonyu

[awkduck]

It is kinda neat. I just wish someone like DM&P would put out a legacy device. Their CPU packages/SOCs still include ISA etc. They could make a laptop, with the potential to include or add old SBlaster/Adlib support of some kind (includes AC97 or HDA, i think?). If I had the time, I would try to order one of their chips and build one myself. They are plenty fast enough for even some modern tasks. I think they do have a bottle neck in the bus, but it wouldn't bother Dos or Win3/9x much. Their MiniPCs, on ICOP eshop, are fanless. You would just have to slow it down, to run the older Dos games. I guess I don't know how well their included video supports all dos modes. I doubt it has much in the way of video acceleration.

But with PCI and ISA support, you could build a laptop with one PCI and one ISA slot. The laptop chassis would just need to have connecters for the audio and video, included in the isa/pci card bays. It's a pipe dream, but lets see what the universe does.