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New Win7 PC Catastrophic Problem - Help


WalksInSilence

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I have been putting the finishing touches to a long gestated Win7 build this week:-

Win7 Pro SP1 64bit
i5-3550
16GB (Corsair XMS3 ddr3 1600 4x4) matched
GA-Z77-DS3H MB
Crucial 120GB SSD
Seagate ITB HDD
WD 160 GB additional HDD
MSI HD 7850 1GB GPU

All hardware working fine so I installed the OS from flash drive, no problems. Driver install + updates no problems so I went ahead and started installing the programs I wanted, security software and personilized some setings and that too went perfectly. PC booting without issue and everything working as you'd hope.

So last thing to do: Windows updates. I'd slipstreamed the Convenience Update Rollup into the installer and that and the required earlier one was listed in the updates. All as expected. Checked for new updates: 20 'important' and 18 optional. I just went for all the 'important' ones and started the downloading. Just under 500MB in total and then the installing went ahead. All was fine until 14 out 20 when the Monthly Malicious Software Removal tool August (2019) took a hell of long time to install.

I left it for an hour - still no progress so I stopped the install using the button provided. But still the Windows Update process continued..........I left it for 5 minutes before shutting it down with Task Manager.

The PC went back to desktop; I did a few other things like look up what to do if Windows Updates fail, decided I'd try updating Windows again tomorrow and then closed down the PC in the normal way. Only thing out of the ordinary is that I noticed there were some Windows updates queued for install on shutdown. So as it shut down I had the usual Windows is configuring message, normal in such circumstances but otherwise it was a unremarkable shutdown.

The problem is that when I went to restart the PC about 30 minutes later it did not give the usual POST bleep, the MB logo didn't appear and the screen was blank. I then noticed the internet connection was not showing on the router and to cut a long story short: the fans are running fine, the HDDs are clearly spinning up but there is no output at all. Keyboard and mouse have no power, screen is recceiving no output from the GPU and the two flash drives I have attached - no power.

You can't launch the MB BIOS/UEFI and obviously there's no way to boot in Safe Mode. I even tried one of the Windows install discs I have - nothing.

So what the hell has gone wrong? Surely It can't be just a coincidence a previously 100% working new PC shuts down after a failed Windows update and then this happens.

But what could it be? I'd appreciate some help with this because I have not the faintest idea even where to start to try and sort this out.

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Sounds like  a bad PSU.

Try detaching hard disks and SSD's and try again booting.

It wouldn't be the first time that a capacitor (or whatever) goes bad in the PSU and the computer cannot boot (but it can with the hard disks removed).

Conversely, it could be a hard disk gone bad, and preventing the machine from booting. (JFYI most hard disks have a "safety" diode, called "TVS"  that simply grounds the +5 or +12 V) see:

http://www.hddoracle.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=86

jaclaz

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Thanks.

Very interesting possible explanation - the PSU is actually one of those generic ones that came pre-fitted in the CoolerMaster 330E case used. I was on a limited budget and at £50 for case and PSU it seemed like a good idea. It is more than powerful enough at 550W for the system requirements but although I was warned it could be a weak point in the build as regards power output if I wanted to upgrade the GPU I never thought about it actually partially failing.

But if just the 12V rail has gone bad then it might indeed explain the symptoms.

As suggested I'll try detaching the SSD, HHDs and the GPU while I'm at it - and revert to the default MB graphics output of course.   

My big fear is that the MB has failed but at least your idea about it being the PSU has given me some hope.   

Edited by WalksInSilence
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Well, to give you some (non-random but not necessarily meaningful) data, I fiddle around with PC's since the  early 1990's and (maybe luck/case, maybe not) in these almost thirty years I replaced on the various computers I manage, partly mine partly of friends/relatives:

1) a large number of failed hard disks (tens of them)
2) much more than that, I would say "countless" failed PSU's
3) a handful of motherboards, maybe 3 or 4 that were beyond meaningful repair[1] (out of a total of - say - 7 or 8 total failed ones) 
4) a handful of graphic cards, maybe 3 or 4 

 

Anyway modern PSU's have a protection circuit and if any of the rails are shorted to ground they won't simply power on, so - to all practical effects - a shot TVS diode on the +12 V or on the +5 V has the same effect, but the same symptoms may be shown for a whole lot of other reasons.

jaclaz

 

[1] i.e. with very minor issues, one or two capacitors to be replaced, a shot PS/2 diode a couple broken solder points/connectors, an on-board network adapter gone beserk, and similar.

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I tried clearing the CMOS value first and even taking out and testing the CR2032 battery. Battery fine, just less than 3v, but it did not make any difference. Next I removed all the RAM modules, tested them. All good. So I then thought why not see what happens when none are fitted. When I heard those warning beeps on reboot it suggested, maybe the MB is OK.

However it took disconnecting everything - not just the power and SATA connectors from the SSD, HDDs, DD and GPU which is what I tried to begin with. No, I had to take the GPU, sound card and a legacy landline/answerphone card out of their PCI slots too. Only when I did that and rebooted did it POST and give me VGA graphics output prompting me to load optimised defaults.

After doing that I still had a few other hassles but eventually it booted to my desktop using the CPU/MB's 64MB graphics of course.

I still do not know which PCI device it is yet with problem. I'm going to have test each one but my money is on the GPU. Hope I'm wrong because the other two I can well do without.

I'll post again to confirm which device it was with the problem.

But why should a dead or faulty card have such a suddenly dramatic affect on the whole system? What could have caused that anyway?   

Whatever the case thanks again all for the previous suggestions and help. 

 

Edited by WalksInSilence
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There are situations where a component will work when hot but not when cold. This can be the electrical or thermal sense.

A board not posting due to a faulty add-on component may actually be a feature of the board design. It would be difficult to know for sure without a tech document but I doubt Gigabyte makes such things available.

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Well as said if any of the power rails is shorted to ground the PSU will simply not power on, it could be really anything, including some (conductive) dirt in a connector.

Try re-adding cards one at the time, check that connectors are clean.

If you are "lucky" when you add one of the PCI cards, you will have the same symptoms, if you can re-add all the cards without issue, then it will be a problem as you won' t know what made it happen.

jacla 

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Thanks, I isolated the problem card just before you posted ...................................its not the MSI GPU. Yay!

It was actually the sound card. I tried it in both the spare PCI slots with the same result.

How annoying, I only fitted it at the last moment because I wanted digital optical audio output (TosLink specifically).  The problem is that to get a sound card with TOSLink digital output like that you have to spend quite a bit more than I wanted too. But I guess it is an important prerequisite that it doesn't end up crashing the whole system a few days after installation and looks like you don't get a guarantee of that with a cheap card. :) 

I can not remember where I bought it from possibly the local high street tech store Maplins (UK) which went belly up a few years ago and is now only a recently returned online presence. They don't sell it now.

The card is marked as "Xenta" High Speed Sound Card and came with an installer driver mini-disc for Windows up to Win 7. If it is the same Xenta company they, mysteriously, now don't appear to supply sound cards or the other card types they used to. Hmmmm - no information about the sound card anywhere so it won't be difficult for others to avoid now.

Found this listing on UK eBay:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Xenta-High-Speed-Sound-Card-6-Channel/1723192452

After the hassle that piece of rubbish has caused me over the last 48 hrs I wouldn't even buy it at that price.

 

 

 

Edited by WalksInSilence
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Well, the rule of the thumb is that (speaking of consumer products, not "bulk") if the manufacturer cannot afford a "proper" package for their products, then I cannot afford[1] their products, judging from the e-bay listing they had "one box fits all", that thingy, besides the current low cost on e-bay,  must have  been really "el cheapo"[2] even at the time.

jaclaz 

 

[1] meaning that I can, obviously, but that I cannot afford the issues they will provoke.

[2] which in itself may mean little, as an example I have found in my experience no real differences in the lifetime of PSU's between "good name" and "el cheapo" ones, nor the cheap ones ever caused any particular issues

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I have since found other sound cards which look suspiciously identical but sold under different brand names.

There is one with a red rather than black PCB listed on Amazon (UK) and far more expensive (£40/$50) than what I paid (£7.99/$10 I believe) or that eBay listing. It does come with a claimed 3 year warranty though but I wouldn't take the risk I had just bought a duff example and certainly not at the price being asked.

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