unmovable file litter

[Molecule]

I'm trying to build a 2k4 standalone workstation system. I am the only person with physical access to the keyboard and monitor. The only account in the system is the initial logon administrator. There are no guest accounts.

Why does Microsoft give foreign powers unlimited back doors into my HDD that are LOCKED OPEN?

Freespace in my HDDs is now littered with zero-byte files and dirs, and the HDDs cannot truly be defragmented. every file can be defragged where defragged means that it has to frag itself across hundreds of LOCKED OPEN sectors that are owned by a ... qua?

Why can't these foreign powers come into the hdd through the front door, like everybody else, and find the sector address by regular disk services?

The MS defragmentation API refused to touch these godlike LOCKED OPEN BACKDOORS ... eventually rendering the HDD undefraggable. (intentional!!) Even though the file and directory have been properly removed (right click, not shared, ok, delete, wham, share violation), MS leaves a reg entry that hard codes the files former sector address and gives ownership of it to a foreign power ... by which I mean another owner with access rights higher than mine, sole account, sole administrator, sole owner.)

This lockout of the owner and machine administrator is called a "share violation." haha MS has such a great sense of humor while they steal from you.

Please don't try to offer some excuse for why MS has to share, VIA DIRECT SECTOR ADDRESSING, a file or dir with a non-existent program. Please don't suggest a reg clean, by regclean or Registry Mechanic. I ran them both in kill everything mode ... the lockouts are still on the HDD, as nicely shown by freeware MyDefrag. The other more expensive defraggers will only TELL you they defragged ... haha! ... yet another microsoft ruse and deception ... in reality their defrags are littered across hundreds of zero-byte "share violations."

Only one question ... how do I kill ALL zero-byte "share violation" back-door mapping into my HDDs, be it former file address or former dir address?

If Microsoft can't run a box without littering my HDDs with back-door mapping, owned by programs that are no longer installed, effectively granting administrative rights to foreign powers that higher than my own, with back-door direct-sector access into my HDDs, then that means Microsoft is far more wicked and deceptive than I have ever imagined.

I need to know one way or another.

How do I remove ALL of this zero-byte litter that is strewn across my hdds?

In the pic below, the red is file space. The crosshair is locate on an unmovable file, and gives the former address. It no longer exists. Pink is pagefile.sys, yellow is pagefile.txt.

The system has 512 meg of ram. to settle down the pagefile commotion, I set pagefile at 2xRam = 1024 M, with min=max. MS decided that it wanted more pagefile. So it added pagefile.txt, 768 M.

[jaclaz]

Molecule

I am getting maybe half of what you probably mean, I never saw such a behaviour.

Unless you - instead of talking of "foreign powers" and "locked open backdoors" - post something meaningful (like the EXACT steps you made to install the 2K, WHICH programs you post-installed to it, etc. etc.) it would be difficult or impossible to help you troubleshoot the issue.

512 megabytes is enough to run a "normal" 2K with no pagefile.sys, for experimenting, I use normally a laptop with 128 Mbytes of RAM and a 256 Mb of pagefile, fixed size, of course without running on it programs requiring lots of RAM and with a reduced number of running services.

I do understand how you are annoyed by the whatever is happening on your system, but ranting about MS, suggesting yourself what is the cause and telling us what you want to hear and what you don't want to hear about possible ways to solve the problem may make things unneededly more complex.

jaclaz

[tomasz86]

Have you trying booting into safe mode and running MyDefrag from there?

[Molecule]

jaclaz ... you are one of the few who might be able to figure out what these critters are ... I call them the zerobyte zombies ... my hdd is infested with zerobyte zombies ... from MS

they first appear immediately after a fresh install of w2k from a hologram CD to a fresh partition FAT32. I'm afraid of NTSF because I'm not allowed to own my own hdd. Coming from 98se (apparently it 's still the greatest) I'm still trying to figure out how install myself as a restricted user (apparently a well advised thing to do) who can then use software installed by administrator. So, you can see how dumb I am ... why can't I get permission to be a guest in my own house?

re the zerobyte zombies, here's my post on ghisler's TC forum ... http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=223679#223679

I suspect 2000 indexing services is involved ... while that "service" is trying to datamine new txt and doc files that are expanded to temp locations during application installs, the program installers are moving the temp files to their final destinations. The installers are working faster than 2K services can dadamine the temp fils ... so that makes the systemgods angry, and so they plunks up the hdd with zerobyte zombies, called "share violations." Teach me a lesson. They did this to WordPerfect back when. Come to think of it, they did it to CPM as well (which I thought was good stuff ... shows how oooold I am)

some sites suggest that it's the Explorer and file services API ... see http://techinfo.laurenceholbrook.com/FolderSharingError.html. It's called an open orphaned file handle. ... create a folder ... create a subfolder ... copy any file to subfolder (txt or doc makes it worse?) ... delete the copy ... now try to delete the empty subfolder or the parent folder ... haha ... kabamm ... now you have a permanent unremovable share violation on you hdd. eventually the hdd is slammed up with hard coded sector addressed zerobyte fixitudes. zerobyte sector gods that defragging programs have to interleave with. (oh I'm in a good mood ... not)

@tomasz86 -- I tried F8 safe mode ... they're still there. also logging on as a different user or administrator doesn't make them go away , nor does rebooting, or rebooting to F8. I'm not a registry hacker, but I figure they are DEEP in some part of the registry that applies to all users. If user-X grants a foreign computer a "share" power over the hdd (i.e. a sector addressed back door into the hdd), then that back door is a permanent sector address into the hdd (whoops ... it's called a "share"). That would also be a constraint for users-Y and Z ... Thus it's removal is called a "share violation."

re the two pagefiles shown on the pic above ... pagefile.sys (pink) and pagefile.txt (yellow) ... I saw how 2000 plunked the pagefile in the middle of the partition. Since I thought I'd like to keep my system partition defragged (coming from 98, that's a change in the meaning of words), and since couldn't find a program that could place a fixed-size pagefile at the bottom (or top) of a partition, I thought I'd move the pagefile to its own dedicated partition. BAD MOVE. Windows did not like that. I have 512M RAM. On a fresh install MS wants to create a variable pagefile 1.5x to 2.5x RAM. So I created a 2.5x pagefile (min=max) on the adjoining logical partition. HAHA! 2K just laughed at me and recreated another pagefile on C drive again, which it called pagefile.txt (not hidden, not system). I'm thinking, what kind of joke is this! So I figured, if 2K insists on pagefile on C drive, move it back. Now 2K has BOTH, and it won't let go of the pagefile.txt. So, it has total pagefile of 786M (.txt) + 1024M (.sys, max=min) = 1810M or 3.5x RAM. So, now I have two pagefiles (.sys and .txt) on C: neither of which can be consolidated or defragged (I've run sysinternals pagedefrag (pre-MS and post-MS) on every bootup -- while it reports to "defrag" the various pagefile components, it doesn't consolidate the pagefile). So now my 3.5x pagefile is split, and appears at top, middle and bottom of the primary partition and is undefraggable. This makes me unhappy, because it affects defragging and it restricts the restore program (terabyte image - will restore from batch) to unnecessarily large new partitions. (TBI does not store empty clusters or pagefiles in its image, but it does restore user and system files to their original sector addresses.)

[jaclaz]

I still don't get it.

And however never seen something like you describe (I mean hundreds of such 0 bytes files).

I still don't understand WHY you call them backdoors or zombies or insist on some kind of conspiracy theory.

It is either a bug or a mis-setting somewhere.

The article you linked to is seemingly about NTFS (and may or may not be connected with FAT32) .

What SP level is that Windows 2K?

What happens if you disable indexing? (it is mostly unneeded/unuseful anyway)

What happens if you just run UNLOCKER on the file(s)?

http://www.emptyloop.com/unlocker/

What if you just use another shell instead of Explorer?

The pagefile thingy is an alltogether different issue.

As you were already told (actually only "hinted toward doing" ):

1. set the pagefile settings to NO pagefile.
   
2. reboot
   
3. delete both the C:\pagefile.txt and the D:\pagefile.sys (if still there)
   
4. set the pagefile again to a fixed size, say 1.5 Gb on the "D:\" drive only
   
5. see if the pagefile.txt is recreated on C:\ (before running ANY program and having disabled or autostart ones)
   

I suspect that something else -and not Win2K in itself creates that file, as I have used various windows 2K installs for years with a pagefile.sys on a different partition (on same or other disk) and never a "pagefile.txt" file was created anywhere.

jaclaz

Edited July 17, 2011 by jaclaz

[Molecule]

I tried to delete them under F8 safe mode and ran MyDefrag and it came up with the same results.

under safemode the screenshot is below

at the bottom of the pic, MyDefrag says the Microsoft defrag API returns a refusal to move this folder

c:\Program Files\OpenOffice.org 3\share\registry\modules\org

there are 6 folders under it, with 4 files

openoffice\Office\Common\Common-brand.xcu

openoffice\Office\Jobs\Jobs-registration.xcu

openoffice\Office\UI\UI-brand.xcu

openoffice\Setup\Setup-brand.xcu

I ran unlocker, and it said no locking handle found ... but being the coward that I am, I balked and chose no option. I have no idea how bad the consequences could be, and I'm already confused and frightened enough as it is. (I put a 48bit hdd on my 28 bit mobo bios (my bad memory), did a rollover onto my FAT and destroyed years of work. And yes, I ran out of space and got lazy with my backups.

I ran unlocker on each of the subfolders and each of the files ... same result ... no locking handle found.

My fully admitted paranoia problem aside (my father was a CIA as well ... very bad!) I still can't imagine why the MS defrag API returns a refusal to move, so that it can be defragged and freespace defragged as well.

You're right to point out that the conspiracy bent in me is a distraction. My friends say the same thing. I have to gain control of it. arghhh. not easy. please forgive.

Here's what I'd like to find

1. a tool that will print to file a list of the names of the files and folders that MS defrag API refuses to move (called unmovable by MyDefrag), for whatever reason

hunt and peck on pixels in the MyDefrag window and hand write the folder names would be ... time consuming ... there are hundreds. To write them down and do run unlocker on them one by one from explorer would take a week to do a defrag. And hunt and pick wouldn't get them all anyway.

2. a tool that will figure out if these unmovable sector attachments can be unlocked for defrag purposes? Why is the MS defrag API refusing to move them?

3. a tool that "unlocks" them if that's the right term.

It might not be, because unlocking a file/folder to delete it (unlocker) and unlocking a file/folder to defrag it using the MS defrag API might involve calls to different APIs, which might have have different internal definitions of "unlockable."

I don't have the machine for a virtual so I have to do hardwire installs ... but give me a week or so and I'll do another clean install from hologram CD to clean partition, where I do three things after logon, (A) install (but not run) MyDefrag, (B) defrag using MS standard defragger, then © run MyDefrag analyze only to show the unmovable files/dirs.

A clean install from hologram CD creates these unmovables as well. I just didn't make screen shots to get file names / folder names when I tested it. Also, playing random hunt and peck on pixels to find them is not the way to see the big picture. I'd really like a program that will scan the partition using MS defrag API, and give a directory dump of the files that the defrag API refused to move (wish no. 1 above).

Or is there another defrag product that has its own internal API and that actually moves them (not just shows a pretty picture and hides them ... uh oh my paranoia again ...)

[Molecule]

here is a screenshot of the registry for [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Installer\Folders]

it contains the folder in question (highlighted in screenshot)

a zip of the reg key export is attached as well

perhaps there is something there ... I don't know how to read registry keys

==== edit ====

I notice that these keys are stored under a key for Windows Installer

My windows installer is winnt\system32\msiexec.exe is ver 3.1.400.1823 and mis.dll is ver 3.1.4000.4033.

After Rollup 1-v2 for 2000 sp4, installer 3.1 was the first thing I added. Maybe it's grabbing these files for some reason.

installer 3.1 may be involved, but it can't be the whole story because these zerobyte lockdowns show up immediately after a clean install by setup (which doesn't have installer 3.1), and a defrag by std MS defragger. (then MyDefrag spots them ... which is a standalone exe with no installer.)

Unlocker00registrykey.reg.zip

Edited July 17, 2011 by Molecule

[bphlpt]

@Molecule:

As you say, jaclaz might be able to help you with your problem. But so far you have not answered a single question he asked you, except to say that Unlocker did not find anything to unlock. (Must be the CIA influence. LOL) In order to help him help you would you PLEASE do the following:

Devote a single post to answering the other questions he asked you and telling him what happens when you do what he suggested (the 5 steps). In other words, address the following items:

...

What SP level is that Windows 2K?

What happens if you disable indexing? (it is mostly unneeded/unuseful anyway)

...

What if you just use another shell instead of Explorer?

The pagefile thingy is an alltogether different issue.

As you were already told (actually only "hinted toward doing" ):

1. set the pagefile settings to NO pagefile.
   
2. reboot
   
3. delete both the C:\pagefile.txt and the D:\pagefile.sys (if still there)
   
4. set the pagefile again to a fixed size, say 1.5 Gb on the "D:\" drive only
   
5. see if the pagefile.txt is recreated on C:\ (before running ANY program and having disabled or autostart ones)
   

I suspect that something else -and not Win2K in itself creates that file, as I have used various windows 2K installs for years with a pagefile.sys on a different partition (on same or other disk) and never a "pagefile.txt" file was created anywhere.

jaclaz

Do not put a single word or attachment or picture in that post that is not directly related to the above. You may then continue providing additional information, describing your theories, and asking additional questions in a separate post. Until you do this I doubt he, or anyone else, will be able to be much help to you.

Cheers and Regards

Edited July 18, 2011 by bphlpt

[allen2]

Or you could just try a real defragmentation tool like diskeeper (2008 version seems to be the lastest officially supporting windows 2000 but other might work) or raxco perfect disk ( perfect disk 8 seems to be the lastest officially supporting windows 2000).

Edited July 18, 2011 by allen2

[jaclaz]

Or you could just try a real defragmentation tool like diskeeper (2008 version seems to be the lastest officially supporting windows 2000 but other might work) or raxco perfect disk ( perfect disk 8 seems to be the lastest officially supporting windows 2000).

Or a "real-real" one, like Ultradefrag....

http://ultradefrag.sourceforge.net/

UltraDefrag is fully compatible with Windows NT 4.0, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, Windows 7 and all of the 64-bit editions of Windows.

Try checking the "status" column in it's report.

jaclaz

[Tripredacus]

Does a zero byte file (as reported by Windows at least) really mean there is no data in it? What if you opened one in a hex editor?

Also, I removed the duplicate post and reply

[Molecule]

ok, I'm trying to stay on track here ... there are zerobyte thingies in the middle of hdd freespace ... what are they? why are they there? what put them there? how to I make a list of them? how do I remove them?

I'm installing w2k sp4 oem + UR1v2 + installer 3.1 + ie6sp1

I not sure how to tell if indexing services is turned on or off or on again. under MMC, Services, Indexing service, Properties, General tab I set it to stopped. Ok, stopped, but now I see that 2K keeps it running as a Hardware service on another tab. I don't have a clue if it's running or not. I tried getting nLite to not install it, but nLite didn't add anything to winnt.sif to delete it, so I assume it was there.

If indexing services is usually on by default, it's a safe bet to assume it was running during my first application installs.

I don't use explorer -- I prefer ghisler's TC. normally I think of a shell as a command line environment ... it's one of the reasons I like TC

I tried setting the pagefile to ... "NO" ... meaning I set min = 0 max = 0 on drive C and set min=1024 max=1024 or drive D, which I did under my computer, properties, advanced tab, performance options, virtual memory, change, ...

then I rebooted and that's when 2k put up a long (5 to 6-inches) 3 or 4-line (?) red-(X) message box (my monitor is 1280 x 1024 - so it was a long message box). It came up on a blank desktop, with no icons, no toolbar or startup button, before logon asked for password. (I should have used a camera for a screenshot.) so this is after gui but before logon. 2K announced that it had determined that the pagefile was not large enough, and that it will create a new one, and then it gives the size. my only choice was to stare at the red-(X) message box or click [OK] ...

2K then created ancillary pagefile.txt on C:\. while main pagefile.sys was on D:\

While pagefile.sys was on D:\, I could not delete pagefile.txt on C:\ even though it is not marked read only, system, or hidden. When I saw that 2K was going to add a pagefile on C no matter what, I moved pagefile back to C:\ from D:\ (min=1024, max=1024, or 2x ram). 2K created a new pagefile.sys on C:\ and it released pagefile.txt on C:\ so it could be deleted by hand. I didn't know that. I had tried to delete the ancillary pagefile while main pagefile was on D: It now deletes just fine.

Just to complete the note, while the main pagefile.sys was on D:\ (1st logical hdd2K on IDE0) I swapped hdds, and rebooted to 98se and deleted the secondary pagefile.txt on 2K's C:drive (now D drive as 1st primary on IDE1 under 98se ... bah) but when rebooting back to 2K (now C drive back on IDE0), 2K just puts it back again. haha ... joke was on me. and my lesson was learned ... conclusions -- time enough spent -- 2K is going to put the pagefile where it wants when it wants to, and no matter what it wants a pagefile on C. I'm sorry I commingled the pagefile issue with the defrag issue, but it was started my investigation into how 2K works on a HDD. 2K is going to put a pagefile where it wants when it wants to so that is my experience, on my system, and it's good enough for me.

as the title of the piece shows, the fragmented freespace and special files that the diskeeper defrag considers unmovable annoy me ... I want to stay focus on that

I'm also sorry I brought up the conspiracy theory stuff and I apologize to everyone ... I have lots of programs installed, and they don't end up causing defrag problems with lots of zerobyte whatjamacallits out in freespace. Other programs range from XnView, to MultiEdit, to Acrobat, to Gimp, to ... on and on. None of them are compeitors with Microsoft and none of them install files out in partition freespace that the MS (diskeeper?) defrag API says are unmovable -- by which I mean files or dirs which the internal MS (diskeeper?) defrag API apparently refuses to move. MS declares other files as unmovable, but they are not out there in the middle of freespace, so there is no track jumping and delayed seek times involved.

In the interest at getting at what is putting them there, and please not in furtherance of any conspiracy theory, I note that many of the unmovable files and dirs that appear by random pixel hunt and peck on MyDefrag also appear in the registry key under the Microsoft Installer, as given in the zip above.

Look at the list of directories in the installer reg key. Look at the names of the programs that own them.

I need a tool that will generate an exact list of the dirs and files that the MS-diskeeper defrag API refuses to move ... without that, it's pointless to try to argue one way or another that all of the dirs in the installer key are treated by the defrag API as unmovable. I will say that every file on my random hunt and peck on the MyDefrag screen also appears in the reg entries under installer. I assume 3.1 since it's one of the first things I always install. Maybe it's the installer that installing these files and dirs out in freespace, forcing the heads of the hdd to swing out and seek, and then swing back and seek again?

my first hunch about indexing services and txt files may have been a bad one ... I'm very sorry if that turns out to be the case. I'm in the dark, and am trying to observe what I can. If the list of files and dirs in the installer reg key is in the list of files that defrag API refuses to move, thereby preventing efficent file and freespace defragmentation for those programs, then it MUST be dismissed as just a coincidence that they just happen to key competition for MS Office ... namely Corel and Open Office. It's just a coincidence. Let's drop the conspiracy guilt trips.

... if the entries under the installer key in the registry are somehow preventing the MS-diskeeper lite defrag API from moving to these files to a more efficient location on the hdd (not in the middle where large track jumps and long seek times are required to read a small file, as that would slow down a program), then can we please just focus on the problem, which is how to identify whatever is marking them as unmovable, without trying to shift blame onto me and make me feel guilty for pointing out observed characteristics. I'm just trying to solve a problem and I'm coming here for help. It's a hard one.

Does anyone know if these reg keys can be deleted? or what their purpose is? I don't want to delete the files and dirs, since that might cause problems. Instead, I want to defrag them out of freespace and put them together with their parent programs.

Ultra defrag is a nice product, and I use it, but now I'm thinking MyDefrag has got some pretty nice algorithms as well! the scripts that run it are also open source. Even fully expanded the UltraDefrag display doesn't have the granularity of MyDefrag, at magnification 1 let alone 1024 and up. UD doesn't show the tiny immovable files which could force head swings. It's also funny how a finished defrag under one front end (Microsoft-Diskeeper lite for example) will show defrags under another (Ultra defrag) and ... vice versa!! Defragging is not an exact thing. But forcing a program to grab a file or dir address from the middle of freespace is another matter. I don't give a **** about conspiracy feelings ... I just want whatever is tagging these files and dirs as unmovable to let go.

What are these things? what installer installed them way out in the middle of hdd freespace? That's terrible. Normally, things are installed in the next available freespace. Why were they installed out there? How do I make a detail list of them? How do I remove the tag that is locking them en masse, so I can defrag the files and hdd freespace?

Unlocker is apparently ready to remove the files and dirs, one by one (what then of the reg entries under installer? what then of the program that needs them) Dirs are called zerobyte by MyDefrag, even though they have subdirs under them that have files that the program put there for some reason ... after pixel hunting it'll take ungodly hours of hunt and peck to find and remove them one by one, just to get a defrag ... removing the dirs and files themselves is not a solution ... finding the service or reg entry that is somehow tagging them and disallowing them from being moved by a defrag front end is the problem.

There has to be a way to poll the MS-diskeeper defrag API and generate a list of unmovable files and dirs. It might be that it's a price that users of Open Office like me have to pay for not having the money to install MS Office software. MS has every right to step on me, its OO and Corel competition as hard as it wants to as often as it wants to ... who's going to stop them ... the pentagon? when Open Office and Corel agreed to having their products installed by a Microsoft Installer, they agreed to whatever terms the Installer sets. If the installer wants to install their programs in such a way as to add head seek times, it has the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to do so. It also has the right to thrash the springs, tapes and head motors on my hdd to an early death if it wants to. I don't care about that.

What I want to know is ... can I make a list of the files and dirs that are tagged as unmovable during a defrag, so can I somehow remove the "unmovable" tags en masse, so that I can properly defrag the hdd. As shown above, these zerobyte subdirs contain subdirs which contain files used by Open Office, for example. Admittedly, at first I thought that was the solution ... but I see how that deleting the dirs and files is not a solution. getting the MS installer? registry? qua? to release the unmovable tag, so that the defrag API can do it things, seems like a better start.

[whomwhom]

Great Job!

Edited July 18, 2011 by whomwhom

[jaclaz]

I give up, I can see when it is of no use.

From the amount of troubles you describe I must have been lucky (and have been so for the last 11 years) since I never experienced any of the problems you seem like having.

BTW on most machines I ever ran and on actual machines that I do still run 2K on, I use OpenOffice also.

jaclaz

[Molecule]

thanks jaclaz

if anyone knew it would be you

I think this is a dead end as well -- it's like yogi bera said, I feel like I'm bumping into the pentagon all over again!! haha. My friends all tell me, don't pick fights I can't win. I have no clue how little I am. I keep thinking, but sometimes you have to try. oh well. little barking dog: "why does installer install files way out there?" big dog: "it's because Bill Blastosphere is an anal expulsive." little barking dog: "yea, well his FAT files are all over the place! ... bark bark"

I like UltraDefrag as well. version 5 has moved to beta ... UD 4.4 has a native mode (very cool) ... but even boottime-UD doesn't move these critters, or join the parts of pagefile.sys. Since I've pretty much trashed this install anyway, experimenting with how 2K works, I'm going to try blowing off the reg entries under that installer key and see what happens. how do I get into these messes?

hey! some very awesome work is being done on a native mode command prompt!!

check out this out!! Native shell — command prompt that starts before Winlogon and Win32 subsystem

in the end, we will win!