Knowledge is power

[Offler]

Since i am one of few people which are still using this system many people around me are surprised that i am still using Win98SE, and quite amazed when they discover full potiential of my home computer. Many things that they found impossible to do are for me normal application...

Sometimes i have seen activity when some crucial information about Win9x systems have beed edited out, even when are well known. This happened on some sites - especially on Wikipedia.

there is a lot of projects which are available to all, but many people - even skilled with IT are quite amazed when they found forum like this, and they are amazed much more when they discover how much has Win9x evolved by work which has been done here.

I want to ask all people in this Win9x Project subforum if there is a possibility to create one powered win9x upgrade which shall be completely free, legal and also easy to use for non skilled users.

Also i believe that if there really is aproxximately 20 percent of all computers using Windows 9x that we may help more users to gain information about upgrades here, the question is how...

[Eck]

Wow! I didn't know the usage was still around 20%. Myself, I just jumped on board 98SE again having used it in Virtual Machines for a while and having a Vista/Linux dual boot. I changed that to a 98SE/Linux dual boot as my old computer is not really best equipped for Vista with just a gig of ram, 400MB FSB and the older AthlonXP3200 processor. It's okay, but hard drive churning is a result of lots of cache use. I just didn't want to wear out another hard drive. And I prefer 98SE to either XP or Vista anyway. Figure that if Windows is my 2nd OS I might as well enjoy the experience while using it. Yeah, I miss a few newer software things but really not too much. And virtual machine use was not satisfying with no Direct 3D.

So here I am. And I think this board and its list of stickies is just fine. There's a thread there with links to various different update sources and things available for 98SE users.

I think it's a good thing for there to be different choices as far as update packages are concerned. Like different Linux distributions, this gives a user the opportunity to choose one that serves his/her individual needs best. I prefer Auto-Patcher along with separate installations of 98SE2ME, 98MP10, NUSB, EXPLOR98.EXE, Maximus-Decim MDAC (although that's going into the Auto-Patcher soon) and the 891711 ani cursor thing. Others will prefer Maximus-Decim packs or Gape's venerable Unofficial Service Pack. There are still folks who just don't want Internet Explorer's latest and Windows Media Player's latest, Direct X, etc, and so the various update packs that stick to Windows system updates are better for those users. So all these being available offer the user some nice choices.

The all in one, least confusing, has mostly everything pack is really the Auto-Patcher and that's been done. It's probably the simplest method for non-tinkering sorts of users who just want to run one pack and easily update a fresh system with just about all the things that let's say a new computer purchased with Windows 98 today should be like, without the bloat of OEM advertising things and trial software versions to get rid of, of course. It really is an amazing compilation that takes much of the guess work and wondering about what updates are obsolete, replaced by bug fixed versions that work, etc. It lets users completely avoid depending upon non-working never fixed Windows Updates. The other packs do that too, but Auto-Patcher just contains enough stuff to not need to do a lot of other updating manually.

[herbalist]

I'm not too surprised by the 20% figure. There's a lot of people who can't afford a new PC and are using 98 because they have to. A lot of the PCs I service are older 98 boxes. Most of them haven't seen windows update in years and are adware/trojan infested, with AVs that expired years ago. What's sad is that a lot of users attitudes about 98 are from using units in that condition, barely limping along. From what I can tell, a lot of users look at a PCs performance the same as they would a car, that it slows down just from age and wear. Most of them have never seen a well tuned 98 box that isn't bogged down by useless vendor software. They're stunned to see their old 98 box go from shut off to online in under a minute, and to see it go as fast or faster than much newer XP units.

Sometimes i have seen activity when some crucial information about Win9x systems have beed edited out, even when are well known. This happened on some sites - especially on Wikipedia.

I'm not familiar with the requirements for editing pages on Wikipedia. Is there a way to tell if it's the site administrators or just some "newer is better" fanatic that's removing 98 info? I wonder if those who profit from newer OSs and software are responsible for this? Other than replacing the Wikipedia data or setting up some kind of 9X info site, what options do we have to deal with this problem?

I want to ask all people in this Win9x Project subforum if there is a possibility to create one powered win9x upgrade which shall be completely free, legal and also easy to use for non skilled users.

It is confusing when you look thru the projects to figure out what is the best to use. There's a lot of overlap between them. I'd like to see a combined service pack that updates the OS components and gives the user the options to update IE, WMP, and other Windows software separately or to remove them entirely (like IEradicator). Getting everything combined into one service pack with enough options to satisfy the power user is one thing. Making it easy for the average user to choose what they need will be harder.

Choosing what 3rd party software should be installed on the typical users PC is where it gets complicated. Maybe some form of auto-detection that updates 3rd party software only if an earlier version is detected. The legal implications of distributing 3rd party software could be another issue. The bigger companies might see a service pack that improves an "unsupported OS" as cutting into their profits if it ever became popular. IMO, the 3rd party applications should be Open Source whenever possible.

With so much to update, I'm not sure a "one size fits all" option is really possible.

Rick

[RetroOS]

...

I think it's a good thing for there to be different choices as far as update packages are concerned. Like different Linux distributions, this gives a user the opportunity to choose one that serves his/her individual needs best. I prefer Auto-Patcher along with separate installations of 98SE2ME, 98MP10, NUSB, EXPLOR98.EXE, Maximus-Decim MDAC (although that's going into the Auto-Patcher soon) and the 891711 ani cursor thing. Others will prefer Maximus-Decim packs or Gape's venerable Unofficial Service Pack. There are still folks who just don't want Internet Explorer's latest and Windows Media Player's latest, Direct X, etc, and so the various update packs that stick to Windows system updates are better for those users. So all these being available offer the user some nice choices.

...

I think Eck's right. People need choices.

Some like using KernelEx or RP7 and so on. Some don't.

Some like IE6, some like IE5...

I think the Windows 9x Member Projects stickies list do the job.

For those interested, Market Share publish OS share information (from Internet accesses).

Here are the stats for the last two years:

Windows 98/98SE: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.asp...=85&qpnp=25

Windows Me: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.asp...=85&qpnp=25

Windows 95: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.asp...=85&qpnp=25

Combined Windows 9x for January 2008: 0.66+0.36+0.02 = 1.04%

Their sources are from http://www.netapplications.com/ which Market Share are part of.

Obviously this does not include 'offline' PCs that do not browse the Internet.

I'm also not sure of their coverage although other tracking sites show similar stats.

Here is another stats site: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

W3Counter stats show Windows 9x at 1.49% (1.09+0.40): http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

It looks like Windows 9x Internet presence has been dropping by about 50% per year for at least five years.

It's safe to say that Internet connected Windows 9x PCs for 2008 will probably sit around 1 to 1.5% of all Internet connected OSs.

According to this site, there are over 1 billion Internet users (already out of date!): http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933606.html

So, that means that there are over 15 million Internet connected Windows 9x PCs...

My understanding was that there are over 50 million PCs still running Windows 9x...

Who's counting?

[Eck]

Gosh, that's a lot of users no matter the percentage.

Yet, few find there way here from what I read in the threads as far as new posters. It's a nice feeling to read threads from folks we've been getting help from, chatting with for years and it's nice that it's kind of a small group.

However that doesn't say much for the poor PCs and users of same that receive advice that I've read on other popular computer forums to either upgrade if they can, 98 is unsafe on the net, or advice on just getting to Windows Update right away and get whatever measure of performance and security by using that service. Unfortunately Windows Update was abandoned for 9x WHILE Windows 98 was supported. Updates were never fixed that were broken and less and less important security and bug fix updates that were released for XP were backported to install on 9x.

The folks giving advice are still directing users there, and only some suggest Gape's Service Pack. Often they give links to older, obsolete versions of that Service Pack as well.

As much as I enjoy the cozy environment here, those folks (millions of them?) really need to get themselves over here and get their systems security patched and optimized. Unless they enjoy using the sort of bug infested, spyware infiltrated, hopelessly slow computers that herbalist and other technicians have likely encountered out in the field.

But who's going to let those folks know about this place if so many tech advice articles and forums either diss 98SE or offer uneducated advice that may have been sort of acceptable back 7 years ago but is not applicable today? Microsoft is no longer the place to go for Windows 98SE support, but still that's where most are directed to.

That Windows 98 Still Alive Campaign was a nice idea, but it didn't seem to get enough notice. No one expects a raising of market share. But those that still have this 9x thing should be directed to options that will get the most possible out of it.

[Offler]

Windows Immolator project has one goal - to build up some kind of distribution based on many updates here. This project was previously (moths ago) for my personal use while i have not seen no reason to make it available for more users. This changed...

System stability and potential is still growing and as i see it will grow for some time

now to some solutions:

1. Immolator is based mainly on freeware software if it comes to applications. Those apps are new and updated. Many of these software are on sites as filehippo or softpedia and are promoted like this, or are under GNU.

2. If there is some pressure "newer is better" we may use it as an psychological weapon. We may say that upgrades we have selected are new, or may renew you system... or kind of...

3. Public forums and initiative on wiki-like sites may be affected by some users who disagree with our opinions about powered Windows 9x. In good case they just say what they think. in bad case they erase so much as they can.

we can be 24 hours online and keep wikipedia sites in state which reflects reality, or we can create our own site. which can be localized and have so much information as possible.

4. forum really do a great job, but in many cases upgrades are not compatible between them or do the same job as other. I think this may make trouble for non skilled users.

[Eck]

Unskilled users need to be skilled at one thing: reading. And maybe: posting questions in a legible manner.

That's about it. Each project is described nicely by the authors as to what it contains and anyone who reads the information in the various sticky posts and others should be able to decide which packages are for them and which would be redundant if used together with other packages.

Anyone sticking to a no longer supported by the manufacturer operating system should be aware that they will now need to get minimally skilled, as the resources and updates for that operating system as well as any technical support are now only provided by volunteers giving of their free time. This is much like users who choose to use free software that is unsupported (although much is, a user has available some which is not). They must adjust to not being able to yell at the creators if something is not understandable or they haven't easily gotten to work something they'd like to.

They will need to learn where to ask, who to ask, and to do some reading on their own. No one expects technician levels of knowledge to be necessary and it isn't. Only a minimal amount of research into their particular needs is necessary and our volunteers should not be required to cater to their target users in the same way that they would be expected to if they were selling a new, fully supported operating system and update packs.

So I believe that if one wants or needs to use Windows 9x systems, they are in the realm of an advanced, experimental user nowadays. This is the case because the makers have flown the coup. If they want it super easy they need to purchase a currently supported computer pre-loaded with a currently supported operating system and the same with the software and hardware they'd like to add to it. Then they can contact someone and have a legitimate complaint if something is just too hard to understand or doesn't work as advertised.

It's time to RTFM!

[Offler]

i think that you are right in some things. Win9x systems are evolving in some way as linux or freedos. No support, just feedback and group of skilled programmers able to change everything

if you say that nonskilled users are not our goal you are partially right, but what about potential developers?

Right now i am very confused when i am trying to find something where i can help with - i am just betatester and scripter, and i can barely help with any development.

[dencorso]

[...]

Right now i am very confused when i am trying to find something where i can help with - i am just betatester and scripter, and i can barely help with any development.

Every form of help really helps. And there are so many aspects of Win 9x/ME that are undocumented that careful testing and investigation helps a lot in the developing of any needed patches. And the testing of the patches that are eventually created is also fundamental to ensure they perform as they should. Your own contribution in the Win 9x/ME topics regarding more than 512 MB of RAM are a good example of helpful material. I, for one, have no doubts that you are continuously contributing to keep Win 9x/ME alive and kicking!

[Eck]

Amen!

We've all got to be appreciative to contributors as it's all just folks trying to make a better experience for the operating system we use.

So, no need to be cold or mysterious but just like the free software world (although we must be careful as Windows is NOT free software and we really can't fully tear it apart and release something different with it or we'd get closed down real fast. We can fix the patches and add to it, but can't rebuild it.), it is invariably going to be confusing. Lots of contributions from many sources and various different approaches cannot and should not be avoided.

It'll be fun, but certainly not one single approach with a "press this" button to please everybody. It's not going to happen. Don't forget, we can't even fork any of this. It's a proprietary operating system with proprietary software. We can only enjoy different folks approaches to make the best of what Microsoft and various others have provided for it.

This way it'll live on for quite some time for many, perhaps eventually only virtualized since there will be a time when only old computers can be run by it natively.

[BenoitRen]

No support, just feedback and group of skilled programmers able to change everything

Everything? Linux and FreeDOS users have the source code. We don't.

[dencorso]

Everything? Linux and FreeDOS users have the source code. We don't.

Hence, we gotta "use the Force, Luke!"

Seriously, now: where there is no source, one has to:

repeat

begin

Formulate Hypoteses;

Test 'em;

end;

until (it works!).

So it's all the more challenging, and lots more of fun (and of frustration).

And it takes a long time... But every new success shows it can be done,

and this forum has lots of good examples of it. So let's cheer up, please!

Edited February 24, 2008 by dencorso

[Offler]

i found this statistics...

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

this shows operating systems logging on internet. but there is another statistics:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

IE5 can be mostly used only with Win9x system where IE6 was not installed - except some old winNT. that means 1.5 percent of computers are in the target of our work, even when OS statistics are not so accurate. althought on win9x can be installed Firefox, Opera, or IE6 - and those browsers are available also to other systems...

[BenoitRen]

How many times do I have to repeat this? Those are statistics for one sole website! A website that concerns only a small subset of the web surfing population, namely those actively developing websites.

[Offler]

i dont say that there is few people. i say that it is quite a lot of people. i just wonder that i didnt found such statistics on google zeitgeist...