awkduck

USB Freezing - For me, I'd still like to know if boot-up freezes, when you (1) boot to dos first [pendrive plugged in], (2) unplug then re-plugin the pendrive, (3) and finally boot windows with the "win" command. If it does not freeze, then it helps "more certainly" point to the issue I have been describing. I also believe, SweetLow is waiting for an answer dealing with Dos. If you don't know how to get MsDos only boot, there is a file C:\MSDOS.SYS. You can edit it, and under [Options] change BootGUI=1 to BootGUI=0. If it isn't there, then add it. This will boot you to Dos only. You simply type "win" (without quotes) to start Windows. You can then change it back to BootGUI=1, to re-enable loading Windows on Boot. I don't know the full story, on the different version of the USB driver. They may all have the forced hand-off. But if not, it might be good to know which one you installed. Maybe even verify that you are actually "now" using the new USB driver (device manager). If you just right click and install from an inf file, the old driver is still probably being used (just an example scenario). I know less about the Dos Drive Removal tool, by SweetLow. But, if indeed a duplication is causing your freezing, then you may need to install that also. Since SweetLow is already in this thread, you are lucky. SD/MMC - I really doubt that your driver is installed. Almost all of these SD/MMC drivers, for machine 2005 and newer, use NT services. I don't think this will work in Win9x. I don't even think the registry entries are compatible (for services). I've altered the registry keys to be Win9x compliant, but the Winnt system files are not present or the Win9x system files are not compatible (with the driver files). So, I have never gotten them working. Maybe someone else has? These driver are most certainly meant for a newer version of Windows, and might not (most likely will not) retro fit. The driver looks like it is installed because it's device name, associated to your hardware ID from the inf file, is displayed under "Device Manager". But the driver is not actually functioning. So you have the right driver for the hardware, but the wrong driver for this version of Windows. Sometimes you can get lucky; I haven't seen much luck with SD/MMC drivers. Keep in mind "Device Manager" will say this device is functioning, but it isn't doing anything. Sometimes you can even examine the installed files, listed for the device in "Device Manager", and nothing will be listed. Often times, when installing Win2k+ drivers on Win9x, the driver files do not even copy to the system. And yet, "Device manager" will say the device is functioning properly. This is because there is no fault being issued to "Device Manager" as these drivers are not configured for Win9x. Heck, even the right drivers used with the right hardware, and version of Windows, don't always work. And they still report they are working properly. Also keep in mind, unless your SD/MMC slot is just a SD-to-USB convertor, USB drivers do not pertain to SD/MMC devices. So SweetLow's USB driver's will not initializes the SD/MMC drive slot. This SD/MMC issue can be frustrating. But often on these near post Win9x era machines, the Cardbus slots work with Win9x (not always). If that is the case, you can get a PCMCIA SD/MMC Card. The generic driver (for PCMCIA SDcard Adapter) that comes with Win98FE worked for me. But there is no guarantee. I've used (so far) up to a 64Gb SDcard. FYI, on Win98FE I have the same Boot issue, with inserted pendrives. I am also using SweetLow's USB driver, but the NOWMI version that comes with it. I still have the boot freeze issue, but have been doing the work-around I mentioned earlier (only when I need USB audio). If I don't need USB audio, I've been using Grub2 to kick the BIOS drivers. I have yet to use SweetLow's Dos Drive Letter Removal tool. So, if I get a chance, I'll see if I can correct it on my machine, and then pass along the knowledge. If you beat me to it, I won't complain :)

Joaquim, if you are still interested in help, we may need more information than this. Like, -what is this "card"? (the usb drive?) -have you installed the USB driver? You said nothing happened when you plugged in the card; but we are talking about freezing, at boot when USB drive is still inserted. Was that meant for a different topic?

It is probably something to do with your browser. The link worked for me, but I got a warning about the link not being "https", while using Firefox. An older Seamonkey browser downloads it right away. So, the link is alive.

You are right. Both need to be addressed/understood.

So, unless I am wrong about the cause, this is what Joaquim should try. It would be a nice clean fix.

You should try the painful workaround, I mentioned earlier. If it works, it identifies the issue more clearly. Disable booting to Windows, from MSDOS.SYS. Reboot the machine, with the pendrive in. Once you are at the Dos Prompt, unplug and then re-plug in the USB drive. Then type win, and see if you boot normally. If you do not freeze, as before, then it can be "loosely" called a USB hand-off issue. Although, similar behavior (between two or more different machines) doesn't mean it is the exact same issue; it has to do with the BIOS USB drivers being released. Being unplugged, in MSDos, releases the drivers. Then windows can boot normally. I want to clarify, I am saying BIOS drivers; but this is really misleading. I just haven't taken the time to give a full on description. It has more to do with BIOS/firmware design. Some may consider this issue a bug; since other systems boot just fine, with a USB drive inserted. But often the machines with this issue were never meant to be used with Win9x. So you really can't call it a bug, but rather lack of backwards compatibility. It isn't always 'entirely' a hand-off issue. BIOS may have assigned the wrong geometry or drive type, to the device. BIOS my have detected a USB thumb drive, as a USB supper floppy or zip drive. With the different variables in BIOS design, there are different behaviors and fixes. There is probably a Dos tool, to 'potentially' configure the state of your USB device (and other settings). I just haven't looked. A person could boot to Dos, then autoexec,bat could run the tool, and then load Windows. But, I've gone on awhile about this, risking the part of a fool. Should wait and see if this is actually the problem or not. I wouldn't mind being "thumbs down" wrong about this. Especially, with my own machines. Even more especially, if it meant I could fix it differently.

I know you can "sometimes" fix this by using the Grub2 bootloader. You initialize Grubs USB drivers, before boot; rather than boot with bios drivers, still enabled. But I've had this actually cause the issue, you are trying to fix, on machines that booted fine (with USB drives still inserted). On one machines it fixed the issue, but prevented USB audio devices from functioning correctly. This same trick has fixed, and caused, USB drives being detected incorrectly (type[thumb drive seen as a super floppy or zip drive]/geometry). There is a painful workaround. Set your machine to boot directly to MsDos. Then remove the pendrive, and type "win". This is only useful if you keep forgetting to remove the drive before you boot/reboot. It might help to echo a reminder in autoexec.bat, about removing the drive. Grub2 can be a real trip to wrap your head around. It may not be your best option; especially with the risk of failure. But It has worked, from time to time. An even more tedious possibility, is modifying MSR registers to alter the state of the USB devices. You could end up with the same set of problems I've mentioned with Grub2. But it would give you a more direct control over it. But finding the data sheets, for you machine, might be hard. And your data sheet may offer no options for adjusting the USB device state.

The picture does not show everything, you have installed in network components. But if the TCP/IP protocol is not installed, you won't be able to browse the Internet. Once/if installed, you may have to configure a Static or Dynamic (DHCP) I.P. (and potentially the subnet) address. If I remember correct, you can do that by selecting properties on the TCP/IP protocol. In properties you can select and or set the IP address and acquisition mode. If you are using a static IP address, you will need to manually enter in a DNS, other wise text URLs will not return an numerical address for connection. You may need to reboot. There is a way to acquire the address without reboot, but I don't know if those command line tools are installed by default; nor can I remember which one to use. I seem to remember Win95 having something other than the well know "IPCONFIG". But after rebooting, you can check the same properties, for a assigned dynamic address. There is no need to check for a static, since you assign it yourself. You can test for connectivity by using the command line tool "PING" (if installed). Commonly you ping your router and or modem; then aim for the internet, like pinging google. If you get a message like "host not reached" (or something similar) then you probably need to check you configuration. Otherwise, you should receive millisecond measurements of your ping's return. If anyone one remembers more about installing the command line network tools, please chime in. I remember my Win98se systems seemed to always install them. But my Win98FE, Win95A, and B didn't do so. I had to manually install them. And the different available command line tools (network) are getting fuzzy, in my memory. Mostly, the earlier network tools. It might also be wise to find an older free copy of TCP Optimizer (compatible with Win9x), unless you know where and how to configure those things yourself. At the very least, search for an online guide for tuning the your system for modern internet speeds. Otherwise, even small downloads can seem painfully slow.

Good luck. Hope everything works out.

I believe that is correct. It is my understanding that this patch could potentially make things worse, or "at best" not really make a difference. But I can't claim, with 100% certainty, that it won't help; instead with just an awful lot of certainty.

From private messages, I was able to tell Joaquim is referring to rloew's "Win9x 512Mb Nvidia patch". I believe there may be another patch, someone could be referring to. One specific to updating video device bios/firmware so that cards not compatible with the Win9x drivers (at all/hardware too new) could possibly work. This patch (rloew's) is extremely unlikely to help with the "black out" issues. It is a 2 path option patch. (1) driver patch - patches the driver limiting it to the use of 256Mb of video ram; thus preventing issues when the driver attempts to use beyond the 265Mb reported by the hardware. (2) hardware patch - updates the video device bios/firmware to report to the driver the full 512Mb of video ram, to the driver; thus preventing the driver's attempt at writing to the later 256Mb of ram, that isn't correctly allocated. !!!!Note: I may be getting the technical explanations of this patch incorrect, but I only gave the patch manual a brief skim. I think my description is near enough to express why this patch shouldn't change the "black out" issue. By all means, improve my description; I welcome the corrections. I would highly discourage updating the bios, unless you were sure it solved whatever issue was believed to be solved by doing so. As for patching the driver, sure. I doubt it will help. But in the spirit of desperation, I understand. These are the directions, as provided in the patch manual.

Joaquim, I don't think "anyone" has gotten regular drivers for HDA to work on Win9x(95,98,ME). The only driver with support, that I know of, is Walters Driver. You could use a USB audio adapter. Windows has built in drivers for that.

Which devices have the conflicts? Did disabling acceleration stop the black outs? There is a possibility an updated DirectX could help. I've had no experience with the specific drivers you are using. So, I can't speak to the probability of this being the issue. Unless you prefer not updating it, you could try and let us know the results. You audio device seems to be a Realtek HD Audio. It can be a bit of a struggle getting those to work. Deomsh does some work with Walter's HDA audio driver. There are several threads here, where you can examine the process of getting it to work. It may work right away. Did you search for more information on the video patching? There are some discussions here, about it.

Okay, so this is completely different. I've had some "edge of support" drivers do what you have described, due to poor DirectX backwards compatibility. You could disable video acceleration, and test if the black outs still happen. If they stop happening, then it could be a DirectX issue. It should be noted, that a video driver can work perfect on one machine and then malfunction on another (same/similar video hardware). Especially, if it is an integrated video device (laptop). Are there any conflicts listed in device manager? Is there anything not installed in device manager? This may be a less likely issue, but I've had a few Nvidia chips behave this way, before they kicked the bucket. Probably nothing, but be weary if the machine is running hot. If it is hot, maybe examine your configuration and see if you are in need of a CPU idler (Rain/Waterfall/CPUidle). In laptops the heatsink for the GPU is often on the same heat rail as the CPU. Might be good to make sure the fan area is free of dust. Also, if it is hot/warm, avoid using the device in warmer rooms. Like I said before, this may have nothing to do with your issue. Just mentioning it as a precaution. But if the thermal grease hasn't been replaced, keep temperature in mind. Most of my older ATI/Nvidia featured laptops, eventually die related to the GPU. Could be due to poor upkeep, on my part, or poor cooling designs.

It is kinda neat. I just wish someone like DM&P would put out a legacy device. Their CPU packages/SOCs still include ISA etc. They could make a laptop, with the potential to include or add old SBlaster/Adlib support of some kind (includes AC97 or HDA, i think?). If I had the time, I would try to order one of their chips and build one myself. They are plenty fast enough for even some modern tasks. I think they do have a bottle neck in the bus, but it wouldn't bother Dos or Win3/9x much. Their MiniPCs, on ICOP eshop, are fanless. You would just have to slow it down, to run the older Dos games. I guess I don't know how well their included video supports all dos modes. I doubt it has much in the way of video acceleration. But with PCI and ISA support, you could build a laptop with one PCI and one ISA slot. The laptop chassis would just need to have connecters for the audio and video, included in the isa/pci card bays. It's a pipe dream, but lets see what the universe does.

Hi @Joaquim, I was curious about when, or what happens, that causes your black screen. I remember some time ago, you had tried using the s-video out of your laptop. The issue back then was that the s-video out did not support the graphics mode attempted (a Dos or a DirectX game [can't remember which it was]). It was a documented limit, even with the right drivers (a win9x limit, if I remember correct). It has been a while, but I think it was that s-video did not support DirectX. Maybe also that some Dos games were picky about fullscreen output, over s-video. Is this something similar; does it involve a fullscreen command prompt or the s-video out?

@jumper Yeah, that is pretty low.

Which resources? I know you don't mean ram. There are greater limitations, if you are not in 386 enhanced mode. I also remember that having virtual memory enabled, limited you to 512mb of memory. When that is disable, I could see the machine's 1.5Gb (alternative Dos Memory managers). Not that Windows could actually use it. I've read that 256mb was the maximum managed (actively used) before the memory manager would become unstable. But applications like Adobe Premiere (v1.1) required 8mb of ram. And I certainly have ran more then one application, of such demands, simultaneously (cooperative multitasking). But, I do recall the Graphical Display resources being an issue. Also, I think there was an issue with allocating over 64mb of ram (similar issue [but not the same] with DrDos7 multitasking). It would be neat to have a 32bit Dos multi-tasker (like WfW[32bit]). Something like Dosemu, but instead on Dos, using Dos Drivers. Japheth (HxDos) has done excellent work for Dos. It would be interesting to have preemptively managed Dos VMs, supporting environments like Japheth's extender. It could be a hobbyist nerd's playground. Sbemu and VSBHDA are slowly approaching the potential, for forking into an "A.L.S.A. for Dos". It might prove nice targeting a modern(ish) browser, towards an open sourced environment like this. Especially, since HxDos has implemented some of the Win32 environment. If one designed the UI correctly, HxHos is not a Window Manager (no floating Windows), you could implement or port a browser to HxDos' Win32 environment. With VSBHDA, you might even have audio. There is even, now, Javascript for Dos; not that it could be used "well" in a Dos WebBrowser.

I've heard rumor of FreePascal/Lazarus having a Win16 target. This doesn't mean it would be easy, but it is one option.

@SweetLow Excellent work! I've been intending to write something like this, myself. I may still take a whack at it, for the educational result of the challenge. But, who knows how long it would have taken me to start? I'm spread too thin, lately. Looking forward to taking your work for a test drive. You've done some neat things. But this one is an attention grabber. Would have tried it sooner, but my main browser is terrible, on github. Seems that a lot of the things you work on, have been things I've see people discus a desire for (at the usual Win9x places).

There are some I have been meaning to test (with KernelEx). SSuite Office Personal Kingsoft Office Suite Free Softmaker Office The newest versions will most likely not work. I wish I could give you some version numbers and links (probably archine.org links or something). I'm pretty sure I've had the best luck with Softmaker Office.

Flesh this out a little bit more. Is this a old Windows install (harddrive transfer, from different computer), or a new fresh install? Does fully updated mean unofficial service packs, or a personal collection of updates? Have you installed USB Drivers, prior to the chipset? LoneCrusader has a unofficial Intel chipset, for newer machines.

I've never tried it, but the "PC-Dos Viewer" looks like Pc-Dos' version of a help/information tool. Maybe try it out.

I have to apologize, jumper. On my part, the thread has become a little muddy. loblo was correct. The orphaned folder should have still been accessible (and was), to the application that created it. It just didn't appear to me that it was. I made a poor assumption, about why the application could not insert the key into the setting file (stored in the orphaned folder), or read the key from it. I used the WinME SHELL32.DLL and SHLWAPI.DLL (and a handful of other files) to test, if the folder "being created/accessed correctly" would solve the issue. But that was just a temporary experiment. I tested on WinME first, and the folder was not orphaned; but I couldn't get the application to run (no test of key file functionality). The application not being able to run, was probably just a problem of me having no real experience using/updating WinME with KernelEx (the Working KernelEx settings from Win98FE were not enough). I'm pretty sure the ME install was completely original, with no system updates. I didn't really want to update WinME, for this simple test. So, the WinME files where used, on Win98FE, to test what I could not test on WinME. The issue is the application failing to process the key, in or out of the setting file, even while having access to the proper CSIDL (provided by ME files). I didn't have an issue with the fact that ME files would be unstable, on Win98FE. I knew this from having played with Win98SE files, on Win98FE. I just needed the CSIDL functionality long enough, to see if it fixed the problem. It did fix the orphaned folder issue, but not the overall issue. While it would be nice to have extended CSIDL support, I can handle not having it. Again, I just wrongly assumed the missing CSIDL was the cause of the issue. Also, if I've misunderstood something, as I sometimes do, I'd gladly eat some words.

I get it. We all have to problem solve, in a way that makes sense to us. I do apologize, that I couldn't help more. I know I have used the service pack 3, without the issue you've described. I wish I could remember more, about the one time I had ran into an issue. I suppose, I do things more in a revision history kinda way. For example, "what change broke things?". But it isn't a direct "fix this specific machine approach", but rather a "fix the cause approach". But the direct "fix this machine approach" will find the answer to the cause, just as well. I'll keep my eyes on the thread, and see if I can help in anyway. I don't think the following will help, but its just something I ran into, from the SP3 site. That's the option with the "(98lite Users Only)" tag. I didn't see your issue anywhere in the service pack forum, but I did not read it from cover to cover. It is possible you could find a clue there. You may have already looked. Also, there is a list (and links), for service pack releases, on the first post.