JorgeA

I am not sure to undersatand this as well. You install a launcher (the one you like it best), then you connect it to one of the stupid Windows 8 "buttons" or whatever they are called, and you have the equivalent of a "Start menu". jaclaz jaclaz, OK, that might work. One could place the launcher's Metro tile on the first screenful, to minimize the amount of scrolling. I'll have to test all of the launchers you linked, to see if there is one that will list programs that are not installed -- at least a couple of them seemed to suggest that they look for "installed" programs to populate their list. One other note: The Metro Apps list seems to provide listings only for programs that are on the OS drive. I am using a "not installed" program that resides on the original (Windows 7) partition, and Metro doesn't know anything about it, even though it's currently running on the Win8 desktop! --JorgeA

Andre, Thanks for the link to the interview, like CoffeeFiend I'll take a look at it later. Meanwhile, see this quote from Steve Jobs (RIP): "...they don’t want a car with six wheels. They like the car with four wheels. They don’t want to drive with a joystick. They like the steering wheel." Check out the paragraphs above and below that one, too. Insightful. Regarding Ubuntu -- doesn't it have a similar problem as Windows 8, in that things get done via big touch-oriented buttons? --JorgeA

Joseph, Good point -- you may be the first person in the world to think of this issue! Maybe they figure that, by then, too few people will even remember Win9x. Or, since there won't be any actual windows, maybe the next Microsoft OS will be called "Tiles." Then subsequent editions could be called Linoleum, Porcelain, and so on. --JorgeA

I don't see it being completely eliminated anytime soon. CoffeeFiend, From your lips to Sinofsky's ears! I've done so much reading (and podcast listening) on Windows 8 in the last few weeks, from both official and unofficial sources, that I can't point to particular places where I've come across it, but the idea is definitely out there that the intention is for the Desktop to be eliminated altogether within one or two further generations of Windows. Of course, when the final release comes the reception given to Metro in Win8 could be so poor as to leave Microsoft with nothing better than to stop alienating its customers, and to refocus on improving the capabilities of its OS's in a desktop setting. Hmm, maybe a Windows 8 SP1 that allows the user to obliterate Metro... or at least to never have to see it again. --JorgeA

Several factors: -if MS commits suicide by moving to a horrible Metro-only environment, then I'd rather abandon ship sooner than later -why would we waste time developing for a platform that we're all going to abandon? Especially when your software only runs on that one OS no one wants of anymore -why would we waste time developing Win32 software when MS is pushing it aside, while pushing heavily for users to use sandboxed dinky phone-like Metro apps instead? And even ARM devices now (which won't run your apps either) -why would we want to stick with Windows when it's crippling its desktop, pushing aside the software that makes it king (including yours), etc. -MS is forcing on us many technologies we don't really care for, while not supporting the existing stuff well enough (again, WAY too much stuff to list). I'd call this a tragic mistake, much like Metro. If developing for your platform sucks, we will go elsewhere. This is critical. It's the reason many platforms died (OS/2) or that some aren't growing (Linux), while others are seeing tremendous growth (OS X, iOS, Android). etc. I'm just not sure what I'll be using next. There's lots of options (C++, Objective C, Java, etc) but none that's particularly great. CoffeeFiend, Thanks very much for explaining. I understand better now. See my reply to jaclaz for the other issues we're talking about. Just one other thing -- from what you said, I take it that developing programs for Linux sucks isn't exactly peaches and cream? --JorgeA

http://www.pegtop.de/start/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/asuite/ http://www.aignes.com/psmenu.htm http://www.ugmfree.it/SyMenu.aspx http://blaze-wins.sourceforge.net/index.php http://colibri.leetspeak.org/ .... jaclaz jaclaz (and @CoffeeFiend), Thanks for the links, but I am not sure that I got my question across clearly. It's nice to know that these application launchers exist, but all of them (except for aSuite) involved installing the launcher program. The question is: If and when the Desktop is completely eliminated, then how are we going to be able to open and use programs that DON'T have an installation procedure? Case in point is aSuite. It was the only one that, when I clicked on it, simply opened ready to go without needing any further processing (installation). From the Metro screen, I could type the program name and click on the .exe file. But nothing seemed to happen -- I was switched to the Desktop and nothing looked different. Eventually I found aSuite as a hidden icon in the notification area, and was able to launch it. But, because it's not an "installed" program, it does not appear at all in the Metro listing (no tile, no item under "Apps"). So, if (when) there is no longer a Desktop, as Microsoft seems to be aiming for, then how is a program like this going to survive? The poor guy who wrote the program is going to have to start complying with whatever requirements Microsoft makes, in order to gain the permission necessary to get listed in their "app store." * * * More notes on the Windows 8 experience: To get a taste of working without the Desktop, I carried out the entire program lookup+download process via the Metro IE10. It was befuddling. Clicking on your links, I was taken to the correct page, but there was no indication whether this was a new tab or a separate instance of IE. Therefore, when the download was finished and I wanted to return to the MSFN page to click on the next link, clicking on the "back" arrow in IE took me only as far as the linked page (sometimes it was necessary to click through a couple of additional pages to get to the actual download page) -- but not to the MSFN page where I'd started from. It took a right-click to discover that ALL of the Web pages I'd been on were still open, listed, or whatever. In the Desktop IE10, as in previous IE versions, you know exactly where you stand and what you need to do to get back to where you had been (the Back arrow? a different IE window?), but in Metro IE10 everything is blended together and you have to look through a bunch of icons that can look very much alike. Moreover, when downloading, there is NO indication of where the file is being downloaded to, let alone a choice as to where you prefer to download it. If they ever do get rid of the Desktop, this is going to be a nightmare. * * * Finally, with respect to a "not-installed" program like aSuite that doesn't show up on the app list, typing "aSuite" on the Metro screen leads to a listing of 106 associated files that you then have to pick through to find the .exe file. And if the program should happen to include more than one .exe, you may have to grope your way around till you hit on the right (main) one. In the Desktop, once you find that correct .exe file in Explorer, you can easily place a shortcut on the Desktop. Remember, we're talking about programs that do not go through an "installation" process. Is there a way to create a tile in Metro for a program that hasn't been installed? I haven't found one. --JorgeA

CoffeeFiend, An intriguing point. I'm not a developer, so I'd be curious to know why developers would abandon MS. Is it because of the constantly changing programming environments and lack of consistent support that you describe? Let me throw out two questions here that that you (and @jaclaz ) are in a better position to answer. Some of the programs that I use are programs that do not get "installed" in Windows. They don't appear in the Start Menu/All Programs or have icons anywhere on the taskbar. Instead, they sit quietly in their directories until I navigate to them and double-click on the .exe file. Now, Microsoft seems to intend for the Desktop to disappear completely within one or two further generations of Windows. At that point, it looks like the only ways to open a program will be through a Metro tile, by typing the filename to do a search, or by looking it up in the "app" list. But as far as I can tell, programs that are not installed don't get Metro tiles and don't show up in Metro Search, and the app list contains only "installed" programs. So, What will become of programs that do not get installed? And doesn't this mean that every developer wishing to write Windows applications will have to start jumping through whatever bureaucratic hoops MS sets up in order for the public to use their programs? --JorgeA

Andre, Well, this is definitely an improvement over what we had seen before, but I will wait till the Consumer Preview is publicly available before offering new commentary. I'm not hopeful that actual functionality (as opposed to the "cool" novelty factor) will be generally as good as Windows 7 or Vista. Thanks very much for posting these screenshots. For those wishing to see more, here is a bigger set. BTW, Hewlett-Packard has the right idea: a tablet UI that you can turn on and off as needed, and it'll stay out of the way if you turn it off. If only Microsoft were as wise... --JorgeA P.S. Like you, I consider Vista my favorite OS. In terms of sheer elegance, it's the high point for Windows IMHO. The Win7 taskbar, for example, looks flat and plain compared to the convex Vista taskbar.

that will be their undoing Yeah, the tablet tail is trying to wag the PC dog. --JorgeA

Andre, That makes perfect sense to me. But then, I'm not a MS developer or executive... I have only "dipped my toes" into the Linux ocean, so while I know these names, I'll need to look into what Gnome 2 is exactly, or what the implications are of removing it. The Zorin developers say they are committed to maintaining their OS into the future. If it's still alive and kicking when (if) the time comes to make the switch from Microsoft Tiles 1.0 (Metro isn't really "windows"), then that may well become my new OS. It looks like they will be updating Zorin to incorporate Gnome 3. With any luck, the change won't mess up the "Windows" look-and-feel too much. --JorgeA

Andre, OK -- that's how it's set now, a DWORD value in the Parameters section. Still not coming up with anything. I'll look for that feedback tool, thanks. --JorgeA

5eraph, Thanks for the tip. I tried it -- no dice. --JorgeA

It seemingly doesn't exist yet, so that would be a no. It should be once it's available though. CoffeeFiend, You're right -- I should have written "it won't be available for download by just anybody..." I'd thought that you needed to sign up to get the beta, and then when the time came MS would decide whom to send it to. I'm curious to see if the beta fixes any of the problems that so many people have identified, but if I had to sign up to get a copy I doubt that they'd see any reason to choose me, as I'm just an end-user. I had based my belief on this page, but then there is this one that says anybody can get it (scroll down to the end). --JorgeA

That's what we're all wishing for. That would make Win8 a decent OS (being able to disable Metro and keep the start menu). But at this point it seems very unlikely. We'll know for sure when the beta comes out sometime this month. CoffeeFiend, That would be nice, though from what I hear we shouldn't hold our breath. That beta -- it's not available for download by just anybody like the Preview was, is it? Yeah. Personally, if MS insists on being obnoxious I'm already looking ahead to a Linux solution. --JorgeA

CLIPPY, my love, there you are!!! Wow, vestiges of Microsoft Bob are STILL floating around?! --JorgeA

Exactly. They chose to force a horrible touch-based interface on all desktop/laptop users, making it suck badly for everyone, just so if we end up buying a Windows phone (because those are popular, right?) we'll already be familiar with the interface. If anything, I think it's just going to hurt them. Yeah, you'll buy a phone which has the exact same interface as the one you very much hate that's already on your PC (they might as well try selling phones by saying they have Vista on them). Or perhaps it's supposed to be for tablets (yes, let's make everyone suffer, for tablets' sake) which probably won't run your existing apps (ARM-based tablets won't) which aren't meant for a touch interface anyway, etc -- and as such offers little to no advantage over an iPad or Android tablet. CoffeeFiend (and @MagicAndre), So, youi're saying that it's not possible (or maybe not practical) to have a Windows 8 that contains both the Metro and Desktop interfaces, yet allows the user to choose which of them will show on their screen when they boot into Windows? If it has to be "one or the other, but not both," then of course I prefer the Desktop, but I wonder if there isn't room for compromise? How about making Metro like the DOS box -- an environment that stays totally out of the way but you can open it when you want it? --JorgeA

Andre, I don't have much experience editing the Registry, but I tried both (1) creating a new ZeroPowerODDEnabled key under Parameters with its own DWORD, and (2) creating a new DWORD value within Parameters. Neither change seems to have made any difference. Also tried switching their values between 0 and 1, and still no listing for the optical drive or disc. Which of the above methods (1 or 2) should be the correct way to modify the Registry for this purpose? --JorgeA

jaclaz, Thanks for pointing out the distinction. Originally I had typed "Windows vs. DOS programs," but then changed it to "DOS-like programs" for that very reason. BTW, speaking of graphical nonsense, many years ago (I think it was about 1987) when CompuServe used to publish a monthly print magazine, I remember reading an article about a research study showing that PC users had a higher average IQ than Apple users. Immediately I thought that it must have something to do with the command-line interface vs. the graphical user interface... Wow, how DO you find these things? I'll have to try this out. --JorgeA

Andre, Thank you for this information. If I open Windows Explorer in my Windows 7, and the ODD is empty, when I click on Computer in the left panel the drive does show up in the list of drives in the right panel. If I then insert a disc, the listing will change to give the disc's title. In my Windows 8, there is no listing for the ODD anywhere. Inserting a disc makes no difference: the ODD doesn't appear anywhere. Therefore, when I saw the quote (which I assume comes from Microsoft)... ...I just had to laugh! As I said before, it's ridiculous that, for Windows 8, average users would have to resort to Registry tweaks in order to recover basic functionality. Now, as to the Registry item: I don't have that line in my Registry. It goes as far as HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\cdrom\Parameters\ but then the only thing under it is Wdf. I found no reference anywhere to ZeroPowerODD. (In case it helps, I have Build 8102.) Notes on Windows Update: Clicking on the Metro tile for Control Panel to check for updates takes you to a screen that merely tells you that there is an update available -- there is no useful information about the update (other than the file size -- not even the name!) to help you decide whether you want to download it right away. Looks like another attempt to get users to unquestioningly download whatever comes down the pike. If you want actual information on the update, you have to go to the "classic" Windows Update window. To get there from the Desktop takes six actions: click on Start --> Control Panel --> scroll down to "More Settings" --> click on it --> click on System and Security --> click on "Check for updates" under Windows Update. In my Vista Desktop, it takes three actions: Start --> click on Control Panel --> click on "Check for updates" under Security. --JorgeA

jaclaz, Excellent analysis, right on target. Microsoft does seem to be trying to be all things to all people. Can't blame them for that. But if they are wise, they'll achieve their goal by offering both the Metro and Desktop interfaces and letting the customer decide which of them we're going to default to. Very interesting to hear about your office experiment with Windows vs. DOS-like programs! I've always wondered: if they had figured out (or created) a simple way to use 64MB (or 512MB or 4GB) in DOS, then would Windows today be a niche market like the Mac. Was it really technically impossible to engineer DOS so that it could address large amounts of memory? --JorgeA

cluberti, That's reassuring -- at least it's not a general problem. Could it be an imperfect download or installation? Anyway, it looks like I'm not the only one having this issue. In addition to the one MagicAndre linked to, there's this one. @MagicAndre: I looked at the specs, and FWIW my Win7/Win8 PC's optical drive has a SATA interface. --JorgeA

I also talk about the same: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/de-DE/windowsdeveloperpreviewgeneral/thread/91d5edaa-d3e5-4494-9c63-5259f081d8f9#adab80ec-3c3b-41a6-839b-5f11ec0fc453 Andre, Thanks very much for the link, I read it. Here's a question -- Do you think this CD/DVD issue is a "design flaw," or a "feature" of Windows 8? Maybe optical disc recognition simply didn't make it into the Preview. But if the problem is actually a "feature" and people have to start tinkering with the insides of a PC case just to get standard, factory-installed devices to work, then without question Windows 7 will be the LAST version of Windows that I use. Until they fix this (among many other things). --JorgeA

Joseph, I'm afraid that you are going to be totally correct on this. Not just a way to milk more $$$ from Windows users, but also yet another step in the dumbing-down of the PC, in this case channeling users to prefabricated sources for approved programs. --JorgeA

Thanks, I'll have to check on that. The DVD drive is internal. Why would that change make any difference, considering that the same drive works in the same computer in Windows 7? I wonder if it might simply be another feature that's missing from the Developer Preview. Just to make sure -- note that I'm not talking about booting from CD/DVD, I'm referring to reading a CD/DVD when in Windows. Yes, I know. I was testing to see what Win8 does when you give it a file type that it doesn't know about: you get pointed to a (Microsoft) app store. BTW, one of the many optical discs that didn't get recognized was Office 2000. I wanted to see if that suite would still work in Windows 8. Confirmation will have to wait. --JorgeA

Some further notes: 1. In the Win8 preview, putting a CD or DVD in the optical drive has zero effect for me -- that is, not only does the autoplay window not pop up, but the disc isn't even listed in Windows Explorer. (The same discs show up fine in the same PC if I boot into Windows 7.) 2. On the other hand, USB flash drives are found right away. Playing a movie in Windows Media Player (again in Win8) gave me audio that was quite a bit behind the video. (The same file, when played on our TV -- the TV has a USB port -- was much better synchronized, though not perfectly.) 3. There is no Word or Microsoft Works installed, so out of curiosity I tried to open some DOC files off the flash drive. Though I was in the Desktop, a Metro-style popup appeared, inviting me to visit the app store for a program that could open the file. This is in contrast to Windows behavior up till now, which is to ask, in a neutral way, which program I'd like to use to open the file. --JorgeA