JorgeA

+1 on that. I want to say "serves them right" for being MS apologists over the years, but I'd rather they kept speaking up this time... --JorgeA

tomasz86, Thanks, that was a revealing comparison. So what exactly have we gained, in terms of performance, in the last 12 years? --JorgeA

CoffeeFiend, For better or worse, I'm afraid he's still giving off hints that he wants to like Windows 8: Why anyone (and especially a power user) would prefer a crippled app like Metro IE to fully featured software like Desktop IE, is hard to fathom. That was an interesting analysis. Too bad that they chose to throw in the bit about PCs receding "further into the background," as if they were in danger of disappearing. This is especially curious considering that earlier in the article, they say that Windows PC shipments will keep growing through 2016, the far end of IDC's forecast. Part of the justification for tabletizing Windows has been the supposed impending demise of the PC. (For anyone who might point this out -- yes, I do know about toys being expected to grow even faster.) OTOH, given IDC's forecasts, if enterprises -- historically the biggest focus for MS products -- aren't expected to warm up to Windows 8, and Win8 isn't expected to take off on mobile devices, it's hard to see how IDC arrives at a projection of growth for Windows machines in the coming years, unless MS continues to offer Windows 7 as they did with XP after Vista was released. The discipline of the marketplace. If MS fails to provide its own built-in solution, the only thing to save MS from itself might be a homebrewed Win8 fix such as Asok is proposing. --JorgeA

Asok, That's a very interesting idea, thanks! I'll try it today. Just one question: Can I kill that vestigial process in Task Manager afterward, or not without consequences? --JorgeA

CoffeeFiend, That would be disturbing. Let's hope it's because they dangled a bunch of $$$ in front of him, rather than due to threats of any kind. Still, the trickle of criticism is turning into a flood, and as we've seen even major publications like PCWorld are pointing out the problems with Windows 8, so it's not like they're going to be able to keep the lid on. Historically, there's been a jump (as far as I can tell) in the price of Microsoft stock every time MS has released a new version of Windows -- even Vista. I'm starting to wonder if Win8 will break that pattern. --JorgeA

Another early warning to Microsoft. Item 1 is "default to Desktop," and item 5 is to "bring back the Start Menu." Cooler heads seem to be prevailing (at least among the tech media and public), even if not (yet) inside MS. --JorgeA

Just had to post this. I happened to glance at the number of current visitors to this thread -- never seen that many before!

jaclaz, Thanks for the idea. I visited their website and looked around, but their program doesn't seem to provide the ability to prioritize or change the order in which stuff loads during startup. I'm guessing that I would need something that would let me tell Win8 to load the Desktop either first or at least earlier in the sequence. In any event, the Win8 startup manager (now part of the Task Manager) doesn't show anything related to loading the Desktop, or to the trick that I described. Or at least, I'm not expert enough to know if it does. (Curiously, the startup list in good old Spybot Search & Destroy does show that Desktop shortcut -- so one could argue that Spybot is superior to Windows 8 in this regard! Unfortunately, though, Spybot doesn't offer a choice to delay or re-order the startup items, only to disable or remove them.) If I get the chance to, I'll see if there are any other freeware startup managers out there that offer the function I'm looking for. A couple of years ago I tried one that was available for Windows 98, but the startup process ended up actually worse than before I applied it. --JorgeA

Pure speculation. Apple tried to do something that's actually better than Win8's Metro i.e. Launchpad. It was basically "we'll let you run those smartphone-like apps on your desktop" which sounds kinda neat and fun (it's entirely optional! Don't want any of it? No problem, it'll stay out of your way). Not this "we'll force a smartphone UI on your desktop and push real hard for everything to become dinky apps" which is a completely moronic approach. Apple still failed, so I don't think MS' brain-dead approach will work any better. If Apple improves Launchpad it might turn into something half-decent for some users, whereas I don't see Metro ever not sucking real bad for most people. CoffeeFiend, That's an important distinction. (And I didn't know that Apple's approach failed, too -- I'm not up on their doings.) Thanks for explaining the difference between what Apple and Microsoft are doing. I understand now. Wow, it sure does. That's a remarkable statistic. So, what are the chances are MS will take the hint from this, and finally offer PC (vs. tablet) users a choice of UI to boot into? --JorgeA

no, this is still not possible. Booting directly to the desktop by skipping the metro-hell is only allowed for Server with Desktop Experience role installed. MagicAndre, That's too bad! But not all is lost: I'm using the method described on this page. The Metro Start Screen still shows up for a few seconds, but then it proceeds to the Desktop without interaction from me. The method is not perfect -- if I'm at the computer I can actually reach the desktop faster by clicking the Windows key from Metro. But the benefit of this method is that if I am doing something else (getting a snack, shuffling papers) while the machine is booting up, then when I get to the PC I never have to see Metro hell. --JorgeA

CoffeeFiend, Using ClassicShell, can you boot straight into the desktop, or do you still have to do that by hand once the system is done loading? Incidentally, you've said that your alternative to Windows (8) would be the Mac. I heard this today on the Security Now! podcast, and I'm curious to hear what you have to say: (empahsis added)And, to keep this post on-topic, there's this: The entire discussion is worth listening to, or reading. There's a number of things that address the needs of developers specifically (such as the loss of program features). Do a search for "sandboxing" on that page, start there and read to the end of it about halfway down the page as indicated by the scrollbar. What do you think? If Apple continues the trend, does it make the Mac a less viable alternative? --JorgeA

tomasz86, Instead of "Windows, Windows, Windows," shouldn't Ballmer be chanting "tiles, tiles, tiles"?? Because he and Sinofsky are pushing the "window" concept out the, ahh, window -- and dragging people back to 1980s tiles. --JorgeA

+1 on everything you said. BTW, as a Win98 fan I couldn't help but notice what looks like the Windows 98 logo in the background on that video... --JorgeA

Foxbat, Thanks a whole bunch for your reply -- it answered all of my questions! This is exactly what I was hoping for. I'll try qfecheck and see what it comes up with. --JorgeA

bphlpt, That's the OS that came with the computer when I bought it from Dell back in 1998. I still have the original installation disk, so when reinstalling I can re-create the exact environment Dell provided, including a number of Dell utilities and accessories. Some bloatware too, of course, but I can deal with it. In terms of being able to enjoy current technological capabilities, I have other PCs for that, so it's not like I'm missing out on anything just for the sake of running an old OS. --JorgeA

Of course, it's time to look for another AV solution. Well, I actively use the FE and only sometimes SE. RFMaster, Do you have a home network that includes a more recent OS than Windows 98? If you do, then you can try this suggestion. You can browse to the Eset Online Scanner and then use it to scan your Win98 system from there. If you don't have a home network, as you reported you will not get new updates for NOD32, but that doesn't mean your computer will now go unprotected. There are still some antivirus products out there that continue to work on Win98 and receive regular updates. ClamWin and Avast! 4.8 have been mentioned in this thread, and the anti-malware Spybot Search & Destroy works well on my new Win98FE system (fresh install last summer). There are a number of threads in the Windows 98 subforum (this one) that deal with solutions for keeping your Win98 PC protected. Try this one: and this one: You may have to abandon NOD32 since it will no longer be updated, and it might take doing a little research on your part, but I have no doubt that you can find an adequate alternative to NOD32 that will help to keep your computer protected well into the future. Good luck, and let us know how things work for you. --JorgeA

Microsoft is reportedly holding fast to its anti-Start Orb position: http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsoft-wont-add-start-button-for-windows-8 There were 212 comments already when I loaded the page. If the folks at MS have any marketing sense at all, as the deadline approaches they will suddenly let the Start Orb and Menu come back to life, and many people will be so relieved and delighted that they'll go out and pre-order Windows 8. --JorgeA

Foxbat, Thanks very much for the information -- it sure did help. I went through the whole thread, and it's a challenge to tease out what's actually included in the SP2, considering the stuff that was included and then taken out, or were maybes and then not specifically excluded. But it does help to know that SP2 consists mainly (or largely) of official post-SP1 updates. Maybe I'll just download it and see if it includes a text file with a contents list. So, if I understand this, on a fresh Win98 install you could do SP2 and end up also with everything that's in SP1? How about if you install SP1 by itself first -- if you then do SP2 later, will it know to pass over the SP1 files or will it try to install those all over again? Then there's the question of knowing what issues, exactly, the various fixes and patches are intended to address. Would be useful to have a dedicated page for each one, like Microsoft used to have. In fact, since I'm not a developer, this is one area where I might be able to contribute something to MSFN: gathering up info about the different files in the SP2. I know that for a while I used to print out and save the individual web pages for Win98 MS Updates as the updates were released. I did this in case my system got messed up after installing an update, so that I had the uninstallation procedure. I know I don't have printouts for all of them, but maybe I can scan in the ones I do have and somehow track down comparable info for the rest. BTW, do you know if in Win98 there's a way to determine which updates you have installed on the system, like the Update History for XP and later versions of Windows? I have a working system that has just about everything that was released up until support ended in 2006 (except for various international language packs), so if there's a way to find that out then I can do a more comprehensive search. Much appreciated. --JorgeA

Thankfully some people already figured out how to make programs compiled with the latest VC++ work on XP & 2003. Then again I don't see anyone moving to VS 11 in the near future, much less using the .NET framework 4.5 which brings so little besides incompatibility, the usual price tag and an overly depressing gray theme wtih CAPS. I just got a chance to read the linked article, and although I'm no expert in these matters I do see where the "forced obsolescence" angle comes in: The workaround sounds pretty imaginative, and I'm glad that people are finding ways not to get railroaded into using OS's they don't want. Thanks for the link. --JorgeA

yes, select the "Vista Aero Skin" in the ClassicShell options. Cool, thanks! I actually like the way that the Vista/Win7 menu works, whereas ClassicShell is more like the way Windows 98 works. But that's fine, too -- either of them is way better than Metro Start. --JorgeA

Well put! --JorgeA

In the screenshot you showed a few posts back, the start menu appears to have a Metro-style look (typeface and background). Is it possible in the newest ClassicShell to make it look like the regular Start Menu? Just trying to limit exposure to Metro ugliness as much as possible! --JorgeA

If you have a network that includes a more modern system, you can use the ESET Online Scanner to scan your Windows 98 machine via the network. That's what I do for my Win98 (FE and SE) machines. The Online Scanner stopped working on FE a year or two ago, but it does seem to run networked when I run in through my Vista (IE8) system. It still worked directly on the SE machine last time I tried it some months back. --JorgeA

I'm looking at MDGx's page containing the Windows 98FE SP1 and unofficial SP2, and I'm hoping that MDGx or someone else who's familiar with these will be able to clarify this for me. The thing is, both of these listings (for SP1 and SP2) are said to install "ALL previously released Hotfixes, Patches + Updates" (MDGx's emphasis). So then, what's the difference between them? What does the SP2 contain that the SP1 doesn't? Is there a comprehensive contents list somewhere? I imagine that the .EXE to download might (?) contain a description of the contents, but the time to learn what's in a package is before making the decision whether to download, not afterward. Would also like to know what the relation of these SPs is to the "Essential Free Upgrades + Fixes" that appear further down the page. Are they included in either SP, or are they supplementary files? It's wonderful that MDGx maintains that site and makes all of this neat stuff available, but it would help to have a bit more information as to what's what. I've been to the site a number of times over the years, but I always come out of it feeling like I've been hit by a tsunami of loose data points, so I've never actually downloaded anything from the site. Now I have a fresh install of FE that can't be updated because Microsoft sent the Win98 update page down the memory hole, and it would help to have this kind of information so that I can make a reasoned decision. Thanks a bunch for any guidance you might offer. --JorgeA

Thanks, vinifera -- that makes sense. Glad you could add historical background to the conversation! --JorgeA