JorgeA

UltimateSilence alerted me (thanks!) to the following excerpt from the MSDN blog post rationalizing Metro: So, what six years ago Microsoft called beautiful, they now have a spokesman describe it as "cheesy." Amazing. I don't give a hoot whether a certain look is "dated," it only matters to me whether it works and (since I look at it all day) how attractive it looks. Anyway, how exactly is Aero "cheesy"? My dictionary gives two definitions for the word: (1) like cheese, and (2) inferior. Supposing that Aero is not like cheese, how then can the Aero design with its various refined elements -- transparency, Flip, shadows and other 3D effects -- possibly be viewed as "inferior" to the Metro design with its flat surfaces and square corners? That's like saying that a red Lego block looks superior to a ruby. Perhaps the real explanation is that the Central Committee has changed the Party Line, so all loyal Party Members must do a 180 and talk up the New Truth. Apropos of this, the following remark in the comments section: Another head-scratcher from the MSDN blog, with respect to the "trends that influenced the design of Windows 8": Never mind that worldwide desktop sales have actually gone up slightly -- the writer is either confused himself, or is deliberatly obfuscating the enormous differences between laptop computers and tablets. Sales of laptops have nothing to do with sales of tablets. Why? Because the experience is different. Try using screen touch on a laptop: it's only slightly less awkward than using a touch screen on a desktop PC. On a tablet (where the screen is truly on your lap, not raised in the air as with a laptop), the touching distance is much closer, the angle is much more natural, and the touch movement is easier to control. Such as, what? I have a financial gadget that updates me on the stocks I've invested in. What are you talking about, "failed to relate to the apps and services we care the most about"??? In any case, it's obvious that tens of millions of real PCs will continue to get sold each year around the world. Why embark on a redesign of Windows that makes it harder and more awkward to use the OS on a desktop (and yes, even a laptop) computer? If the idea is to respond to users' increasing embrace of social media, then all you need is the right Gadgets to put on the Desktop so that anybody who so wishes can follow the latest tweets, Facebook status updates, and other trivial cr*p (sorry). But no, you've basically killed off Windows Gadgets, presenting the Metro abomination as the answer to our suffering. In Vista and Win7, I can have the Gadgets I want showing while I get work done in two or three open windows. Under Metro, if I want to see the current weather or stock averages I have to interrupt my work and switch apps. How is that preferable? --JorgeA

UltimateSilence, Very good articles, thanks! Great digging work you did there. This is my "favorite" excerpt from the "Five Biggest Enemies" article: --JorgeA

That was an excellent rundown of the main problems with Metro, thanks for posting it. I'd be curious to see how Metro fans respond (didn't see much that was sensible in the comments when I checked). That is exactly what happened with Win8. They tried to make a desktop OS and a tablet OS into a single OS that sucks for everybody, particularly desktop users which happen to be their only market right now. Way to shoot yourself in the foot. Right on point. It's ironic that the Win8 slogan is "no compromises," because they sure as heck are asking their desktop customers to compromise their UX big time. --JorgeA

xpclient, Thanks a bunch for the links. I've been giving the Ribbon an extended (three-year!) tryout, in the hope that it'll get easier to use, but so far it's just not working out. Meanwhile, you may want to weigh in on this discussion where your post was mentioned. --JorgeA

CoffeeFiend, Wow, Paul Thurrott has completed his turnaround on Windows 8. Thanks for the link. I'd seen that screenshot of the new Windows Explorer, but it didn't hit me what MS was doing with it till Thurrott's discussion of Aero. I'd already noticed the squared-off corners and wondered why people were saying these things were getting changed/removed for the Release Preview, but now I understand. It's worse than even I had thought. Was going to say that we truly are back at Windows 3.1 in terms of the look, but even 3.1 had some convex buttons. I don't have a d*mn battery in my computer -- I don't need to "save" on battery power. Let me have the esthetic elements that make using a PC more pleasant, and let those who want to squeeze an extra hour out of their battery charges turn those features off. But don't turn them off for everyone! What ever happened to the concept of customization?? I've heard the rationalizations and the explanations for the strategy, but I still don't understand why MS wants people to use a golf-cart engine even if we have a Honda Accord of a PC (let alone a Lexus, or a Ferrari). --JorgeA

xpclient, This is a fantastic list, thanks for posting it!! I was going to suggest your putting it up on Wikipedia, till I saw that you're the author of the corresponding lists for Vista and Win7. There are so many things that bother me about Windows 8, but from the UX standpoint the ribbon concept is one of the most irksome: I used MS Office 2000 for six years on my Windows 98 tower. The menus were logically organized, and I got to the point where work flowed smoothly from one operation to the next. Then I got a new computer and Office 2007 with the ribbon. Three and a half years later, I'm still hunting and pecking for commands in the ribbon. It just doesn't make sense to me. One of the most annoying "features" is the one where you can use the mouse wheel to scroll from one ribbon tab to the next. I like to leave my mouse pointer near the top of the screen, out of the way of the document I'm working on. In Word 2000 you can put the mouse pointer anywhere on the screen and still scroll around the document with the wheel. In Word 2007, I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to scroll up or down in a document, say to change the font or typesize, and ended up moving several tabs away from the one I needed to be in. --JorgeA

LOL, very apt! The thread has evolved from a "user's viewpoint review" to a general discussion of Windows 8, but that's OK. To quote CoffeeFiend, things only get worse with Windows 8: Microsoft is doubling down on Metrofying the Desktop. Design elements that I thought were merely signs of how unpolished the beta version was (such as the squared-off corners of windows) turn out to be deliberate decisions. So "it's not a flaw, it's a feature!" What the MS employee describes as "clean and crisp" is what all along I've thought of as, "flat and plain." Interesting that they should have chosen a screenshot from Windows 1, because that's what Windows 8 is looking more and more like. Hardly a "premium" or "modern" look -- I get the sense that they want Win8 to be able to run on an 80386... --JorgeA

Yes, I do realize that. I'm sort of in the market for a current PC anyway. Relative to waiting till (for example) 2014 when the discount no longer applied and I would have to pay full freight for Windows 8 Professional, then this could turn out to be a money-saver. Again, this is assuming that the price of Win8 Pro would ultimately be higher than the price of Win7+Win8Pro downgrade. We'd also have to verify that the new PC would, as different hardware, still be able to play the shows that we already have recorded. On the other hand, it does give me pause to know that I'd be contributing to improving the sales figures for Windows 8. So it's a close call. --JorgeA

UltimateSilence, Hmm... This may sound shocking, given everything that I've been saying all along, but this time-limited offer of an inexpensive upgrade to Win8 may actually get me to purchase one single license. A couple of factors are at play here. Let's assume that the upgrade to Pro brings me one of the necessary steps closer to getting Windows Media Center on Win8. And let's assume that WMC for Windows 8 will have the same lifecycle as Windows 8. And finally, let's assume that the EPG (electronic program guide) isn't going to be provided forever, but rather only during the officially supported lifecycle of the product. If all three of these hold true, then it might make sense for me to buy one license so that I can extend the supported life of my DVR PC by three years. That PC lives in WMC anyway, so exposure to Metro silliness will stay at a minimum. Again, this is assuming that, as now a separate add-on, Media Center doesn't end up with its own (truncated) lifespan. There is NO other reason, though, for me to consider buying a computer with Windows 8, let alone installing that OS on any of my existing computers. I'd rather go without new Windows updates starting in 2017 (Vista) or 2020 (Windows 7). With any luck, by then Microsoft will have been chastened and brought back the possibility of leading a Metro-free life in the Windows ambit. --JorgeA

LOL +1 on that! IMX most folks who buy a computer treat it pretty seriously. It's not a tablet or a phone: they've got one of those, too, and THAT's the one that gets treated like a platform for trivial stuff. Each kind of device has its own reasons for existing, but the geniuses at MS seem to be blind to that. --JorgeA

Tripredacus, Incredible but true... That's one rationale for making all your devices run on the same interface -- it makes the sales totals look bigger. --JorgeA

UltimateSilence, Here's my exact reaction when I clicked on your illustration of a Vista-inspired web page: "Oh, wow -- that's gorgeous! Look at those buttons. They have DEPTH..." Thanks for sharing. --JorgeA

@submix8c @MagicAndre Thanks a bunch! You've given me very good ideas to work with, and some homework to do. Much appreciated. --JorgeA

UltimateSilence, No kidding!? I never realized that, wow. Back in 2006-7 I wasn't nearly as attuned to tech developments as I am today, so MS's adopting the Vista look went right past me. B) <-- in this case not cool, but blind! --JorgeA

Hear, hear. But things are even worse than that: Metro style is starting to take over Microsoft's websites, with those full-color rectangles and plain flat arrows. I just updated my Norton 360 to version 6, and it too is blemished by that flat, plain look. Talk about a spreading computer "virus." --JorgeA

Also, it still counts as a Win8 sale, so it'll be the best selling OS ever (according to some twisted math like they've done for Vista) *sigh* You're right. Still, I would take that over not being able to get Windows 7 at all once 8 comes out. Back in the day, did anybody publish reliable statistics as to how many PCs that came with Vista installed got downgraded to XP? I'm sure that there will be some way to estimate how many Win8 systems actually make it to regular use, vs. how many are sold. --JorgeA

+1 to that. If Tripredacus is right and it's possible to downgrade even after Win8 is released, then I won't have to rush out and buy the souped-up PC I've been eyeing, for a while longer yet. --JorgeA

CoffeFiend, Thanks for the comments, it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing from someone who has heavy-duty professional requirements. ...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow. To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word. FWIW, in case it changes anything the exact way they put it was: Yeah, that would be a killer. Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread, and yet as you point out they've been giving the OS away for years and they're still at -- what, only 1% market share or something. We might say that Linux stands at the opposite extreme of what Microsoft is trying to do with Metro: esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle. Classic Windows was a good middle ground between Metro simplistic and Linux arduous. --JorgeA

submix8c, OK, here's how I'm looking at it. We're still getting updates for Vista automatically via Windows Updates. But as soon as they're downloaded, they get installed (integrated) into Vista. What I would like to know is if (after installation) these downloaded files continue to exist as separate files somewhere in the folder structure, so that I can copy them to a DVD or thumb drive. If the way Microsoft handled it with Windows 98 is a guide, then we can predict that as of April 2022 (five years after the end of extended support in April 2017), Microsoft will start erasing Vista updates from their website, just as today you can no longer access the Windows Updates page for Windows 98. Therefore I'd like to have a DVD or thumb drive containing all of these updates, so that if I ever need to reinstall Vista from the factory DVD, I can still install SP2 and all other updates. Hope this makes my question clearer. I'd never heard of Autopatcher.com, I'll look into it, thanks. --JorgeA

Hello, Last week I purchased, on clearance from a major retailer, a tower machine that came preloaded with Windows XP and included a set of both XP and Vista Business x86 DVDs. (Yes, the purchase of a Vista machine did take place in May 2012!!) After getting the factory XP installation all caught up with updates and security software, I created a new partition to install Vista. That went well, but as you can imagine there were a ton of updates, including Service Pack 2. We discovered last year that Microsoft doesn't keep previous updates for retired versions of Windows available forever, as we can no longer access Windows Update for Windows 98. The time will come when Microsoft pulls this same plug on Vista, and then new Vista installations won't be able to get SP2 and all the other updates that came out since the DVDs were published. So, my question is: Now that these updates have been installed, is there some way to tease their files out of the system in order to put them on their own CD or DVD, so that years down the road, if necessary I can add them to a fresh Vista installation even after Microsoft stops offering the updates? I suppose that one way around this would be to image the drive after the bulk of the updates are done, but of course we're still getting five more years' worth of security fixes. Should I simply keep reimaging the Vista drive, or is there some not-too-difficult way to add these files to an optical disk (or a thumb drive) as they arrive? I'm just not sure if they're too far integrated with Vista now to retrieve as independent files anymore. Thanks for any ideas or suggestions. --JorgeA

If it were ever implemented, that Longhorn feature could come in very handy in certain scenarios, professional or otherwise. I could see, for example, comparing a foreign-language manuscript to a translated version, to see if all the elements match, or a previous edit to the corrected version side by side. It would cut down on a ton of manual scrolling if the files were to scroll up and down in tandem. There would need to be a way to turn off the tandem scrolling, though, as in some cases you DON'T want the other window to change as you move around in the first one. But in some cases the function could be a real timesaver. Nice find, UltimateSilence! --JorgeA

jaclaz, I can relate to everything they said in those links! Thanks for posting them. --JorgeA

tomasz86, Wow, no kidding!? You can simply copy the IE10 files over to Vista, and it will work? That sounds so MS-DOS. This is amazing. But, doesn't IE10 have to get "installed" in some way? I can see the method working if you launch IE10 directly (from a shortcut that you manually created, or in Windows Explorer), but what happens if you click on a link in a Windows Help file, or on a link in an e-mail? In those cases I have to think that Vista would use the "official" installed version of IE, right? Very interesting! --JorgeA

Catching up on my podcasts, I came across the following exchange in "Security Now!" with Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte. CoffeeFiend may find it especially interesting, as he's suggested that, post-Windows, Apple would be his first choice. (Emphasis added.) The following provides some background: Comments? As Steve and Leo say at another point, soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go. --JorgeA

Like a horror-movie monster that won't quit till it overrruns the whole city, it looks like Metro style is invading the Desktop. Check out these screenshots: The Desktop buttons, checkboxes, scroll bar, and spinner are all taking on the flat Metro look in the Windows 8 Release Preview. The text explains that the intent is to lessen the visual shock of switching back and forth between Desktop and Metro. As implemented, of course, the result is that Metro style is taking over the Desktop. So, for those (mostly in other forums) who've said that you can always just stay in the Desktop -- well, Microsoft intends to force-feed users the unleavened bread of Metro even in the (formerly) visually rich Desktop experience. --JorgeA