Refund

[DonDamm]

@nightthief - Yes, Office 2007 works okay under Vista, but try sharing tasks over a network with other machines such as you might have in a real office. Ooops! Notifications don't show on the Vista machine! And that's using MS own software like XP with Office 2003 on the other machines. Intuit now tell their customers not to use QuickBooks, a widely used program by SMBs across the country, on Vista as it just doesn't work! I'm sure MS is working on it as I heard they finally bought Quicken which the justice department disallowed years ago. Oh well.

And basic Photoshop works fine as well, but try some of the more intricate things, stress the program a bit and you'll run into glitches. I'm sure these will be worked out in time, too.

However, if you were a business, you'd be foolish to adopt this platform right now. It costs a fair amount and delivers less, and quite a bit in many cases.

I haven't even touched on the embedded and enmeshed DRM fandangle. To work it must monitor every file on your machine and what you do with it. This has to and does affect the overall performance. You can mask this with better hardware and tricks like SuperFetch and ReadyBoost and whatnot, but the bottom line is that Redmond has decided for you what you can and can't do with your machine in many cases. And it's only going to get worse. The whole video sub system is intentionally crippled if you don't have what they deem as "secure" connections all the way through. To date, o monitor on the general market complies! Or graphics card. That mfeans all that HD content you want to watch is intentionally crippled by your system whether you want it or not just because you might make a copy of something on your hard disk!

Do you really want to support this nonsense? Yes, Vista will be a fact of life as it is sold with new machines and we'll have to keep up with it vagaries if that is our business, but personally I'm looking to install Ubuntu as my server and only run Vista or XP in a VM. The new VMware v6.0, though still in beta, is really really fast under Linux. It will blow you away. I'm running Vista with 1GB in a VM right now under 2003 Server and it is pig slow. But under Linux there is hardly a hesitation.

The driver situation will only get better for Vista as it did for XP, but Vista really gets in your face, and sooner or later you're going to cuss at it. It is pretty though! :^) (Is that the only reason to adopt it?)

[kartel]

There is no vista sp1, its a rumour

[[deXter]]

There is no vista sp1, its a rumour

It's not exactly a rumor, its just unofficial news. Unofficial because Microsoft hasn't formely announced it yet. But the Intel CEO, Paul Otellini, accidently did.

[nightthief]

Yes, Office 2007 works okay under Vista, but try sharing tasks over a network with other machines...

And basic Photoshop works fine as well, but try some of the more intricate things...

The whole video sub system is intentionally crippled...

I haven't even touched on the embedded and enmeshed DRM fandangle. To work it must monitor every file...

I have been working with computers since the early 70's, having cut my teeth on an old PDP-11 and the Altair. I am a hardware engineer by trade, a programmer by necessity, and a hacker by choice. There are very few applications that I have not put my computer system to. As such, try to refrain from talking to me as if I were a neophyte.

My own network consists of seven systems. Three are running Vista Ultimate (two with Office 2k7 and one with 2k3), three are running XP (one with Office 2007 and two with 2k3), and the final one - my server - is running Win-2k3. I use a variety of applications on my network, including the Office Suite with Exchange on my server. The compatability issue you mention has nothing to do with Vista, but is a result of mixing and matching Office 2003 and 2007.

As for Photoshop, I am far from being a regular user I regularly use multiple layers, alpha channel composition, numerous filters, channel substitution, masking, custom brushes, color correction & normalization, and much more. I have never encountered any "glitches" as you claim I would have.

Your comments about the Video system are just as innacurate. While metadata specifying permissions and security have to be accessed for every file, there is virtually no difference between how they are implemented in Vista and how they were in XP & 2003. On all three systems (and even older version of NT such as 4.0 and 3.51), the security metadata associated with every single file on the computer must be accessed every time the file is. The "burden" you claim DRM to be is a myth. Likewise, you are in error when you claim that DRM exists because Microsoft wants to control what you do. While the latter may or may not be true, the implementation of DRM was imposed by the content providers. Microsoft had a choice of either implementing it as the license for interoperability with their media requires, or simply refusing to support it at all - and thus locking all of the Vista users out of being able to use such titles. Quite frankly, Microsoft would have been foolish to take the latter route.

As for your claims of a complete dearth of hardware support for DRM, you really need to check your facts. Both the Radeon x1650xt graphics card in the box I am currently typing on and the Ben-Q monitor attached to it are fully HDMI/HDCP compliant. With the exception of some minor bugs in the current ATI Catalyst video driver, HD video plays without a problem. Not only is this hardware compliant, but so are my 8800GTS card and the Dell monitor it is running. In fact, there are both a handful of cards and displays which support HDCP. Even more, those people who don't have such hardware, can simply bypass the DRM requirements using the current release of AnyDVD.

The one place I will give you credit is in your statement that most Businesses should not adopt Vista & Office 2007.

I do agree with you on the conclusion, but find your reasoning grossly innacurate. Vista offers a considerable boost in productivity for those who have learned how to use it. (And, yes, I have been using Vista for quite a long while - having played with the Alphas and then converting my primary machine to run Vista exclusively starting with Public Beta 1.) Among Vista's many improvements are the streamlined user interface, intelligent use of rendering hardware, instantaneous searches, AI guided cache and memory management (Readyboost, Superfetch, ReadyDrive), and a very robust security subsystem that protects the system against crashes and malicious code. As for stability, my current uptime is now at 187 days, 14 hours, and 22 minutes.

The only reason I agree with your conclusion is because of the economic equation. Due to the newness of Vista and Office 2007, all current schooling is still focused on the XP/O2k3 system. As such, neither employees currently working for a company nor the potential employes they might hire are going to have the skills for the new paradigm. This necessitates retraining on a mass scale, a time-consuming and expensive endeavor. Moreover, until users become proficient with the newer sysems, productivity losses would be guaranteed. Businesses are far wiser to avoid a switch at this point, leveraging the expertise they already possess for XP/O2k3, and wait on switching until such time as the home & enthusiast markets (and any formalized training which arises) provide a reasonable level of proficient users.

Edited April 21, 2007 by nightthief

[DonDamm]

Well, excyooose me! I wasn't talking down to you and apologize if you felt so. Thank you for the bio. It's clear you have more experience than I do, but I stand by my post within the context of what I was saying. Of course, the issue with Office is because of mixing and matching 2003 and 2007. But that is the point. This wasn't my client but a friend in West Virginia, but it was a real world problem that caused many headaches. Tasks are an aspect of Office many never delve into.

As for the hardware, I live in Austria and while there may be one or two out there, none of the main online electronics outlets or computer stores here sell monitors with HDMI conectors, and even the LCD TVs which claim to be HD-ready just aren't. Most people I know don't have the spare cash to spring for an 8800GS card either. And it would be well to mention that nVidia are having great problems getting their drivers to be fully compatible and they've now decided to charge money for them! That's good or bad depending what side of the fence you're on. The fact is that most of the HD content will be constricted on a Vista system with most of the hardware that folks have now. That means to access it, they'll have to invest in new hardware beyond just more RAM and a heftier chip. Many buying a new machine won't realize this until later. They'll be shut out until they spend more money. At least if they want to use Vista, because as I said, Vista will constrict the video stream. Using AnyDVD is only a partial solution and certainly not the most desirable one. People like you know about it, but most of my customers don't and they are the ones who end up paying.

Yes, I've known about the security descriptors and file access for quite a while, but DRM goes far beyond the Hollywood content providers. The TCP neé Platinum is slowly but surely putting the pieces in place that will severly hamper the use of your own machine. I have nothing against the concept of protecting content per se, but I do have great misgivings about the overall concept based on copyright laws which need to be revisited to restore some of the original intent. That is another issue entirely, but it does play into it.

Again, I meant no offense to you in anyway and only wanted to comment on my own experience in relation to what you said. I also said that most of the problems with drivers and such will be ironed out over time. You might glean from that that I'm not an MS basher by trade or hobby. I'm glad your system is stable for you and that it has not caused any of the problems others seem to have had. We benefit from your input.

[XPerties]

I am a hardware engineer by trade, a programmer by necessity, and a hacker by choice.

Such ileet skills and a hacker by choice. I fear you. :ph34r:

hahahahha, I just had to be a smartass toward you on even making a comment about you being a hacker by choice. Only a kid would make such a comment. That gave me a great laugh tonight.

Edited April 22, 2007 by XPerties

[nightthief]

I am a hardware engineer by trade, a programmer by necessity, and a hacker by choice.

Such ileet skills and a hacker by choice. I fear you. :ph34r:

hahahahha, I just had to be a smartass toward you on even making a comment about you being a hacker by choice. Only a kid would make such a comment. That gave me a great laugh tonight.

Thank you for demonstrating how knowledge has degenerated over the years.

What you term a hacker (ie a person who breaks into computers, etc.) is properly termed a phreaker or breaker. Neither are hackers, although the press certainly enjoys maligning the term.. 'Hacker' is a term which originated in the early 70's and has absolutely nothing to do with such illicit activities. If you care to be "smart" instead of simply being a "smartass," you can take the time to learn the true meaning of the word. Here's something to get you started: (link).

As for me being a kid, I only wish I were again. I'm not, however, and the last 47 years haven't been exactly kind. Still, I've learned a lot more in my days than you apparently have - starting with manners.

[XPerties]

I am a hardware engineer by trade, a programmer by necessity, and a hacker by choice.

Such ileet skills and a hacker by choice. I fear you. :ph34r:

hahahahha, I just had to be a smartass toward you on even making a comment about you being a hacker by choice. Only a kid would make such a comment. That gave me a great laugh tonight.

Thank you for demonstrating how knowledge has degenerated over the years.

What you term a hacker (ie a person who breaks into computers, etc.) is properly termed a phreaker or breaker. Neither are hackers, although the press certainly enjoys maligning the term.. 'Hacker' is a term which originated in the early 70's and has absolutely nothing to do with such illicit activities. If you care to be "smart" instead of simply being a "smartass," you can take the time to learn the true meaning of the word. Here's something to get you started: (link).

As for me being a kid, I only wish I were again. I'm not, however, and the last 47 years haven't been exactly kind. Still, I've learned a lot more in my days than you apparently have - starting with manners.

"demonstrating how knowledge has degenerated" - First off your term hacker, that you feel I might think...... are false. The term "hacker" is not for discussion here. What is up for decision is how you felt the need to come to the thread and lay your "I'm so cool because I'm a programmer by necessity, and a hacker by choice". By even making a statement like that only shows the aggressiveness you are in search of to portray yourself as higher than others who might offer you another opinion because guess what - Opinions are like as******, everyone got one! Your opinion which was a drawn out explanation of Vista and how great you think it is only fired back at others in a attempt to belittled their experience.

I made some comments about my views on vista and when others fired back at me you did not see me stand up and fire back at them. My experience with windows products and in the internet/technology world will out seed most on these forums. Considered I was a founding members of MSFN and once ran the forums as a Admin, my experience here alone stands for itself but you will never find me trying to pull rank over someone who disagrees with me over a stupid "Vista is great, no it's not" thread.

Again, only a kid would say they are a hacker. The word hacker is taken in two ways on the internet....

1. It's taken as the definition you spoke of above.

2. It's taken in a childish "OMG I'm so cool" platform.

In the future remember MSFN is about sharing and helping not portraying yourself in a larger than life aspect.

[Shark007]

This TOPIC has outlived its usefulness.

* CLOSED *