NTFS vs. converted NTFS?

[tak]

Okay.

This may sound really, really stupid, but~

I've been thinking about backing up my Win32 installation. Usually, in Gentoo, I can just tar (think, GNU's default solution to ZIP/RAR/whatever) up the entire 2-3GB system, and really pack it down. When I restore, I just boot from a LiveCD, un-tar the archive, boom, system restored. So, I thought, perhaps I could do this for Windows, since I can R/O access the NTFS partition from Gentoo? Mount the partition, tar the files, and the archive resides on the Linux side. So, LiveCD + tar.bz2'd system --> untar == yay!

The problem is, I can't write to NTFS partitions from the Linux side, only FAT16/32. I'd have to un-tar the archive to the partition, boot from the partition (using GRUB, so no problems regarding the boot loader) and convert it from there.

So. That leads to my question - is there any difference at all between a converted FAT --> NTFS partition and an original-created-by-win32-NTFS partition? I can't think of any, but I read somewhere that "converted is slower" or some rubbish like that.....

[sleepnmojo]

I would say no, but I always go the pre format route. Why don't you use the winPE method, and untar/bz2 from there? It should be able to write to the NTFS partition, and restore everything.

[tak]

Why don't you use the winPE method, and untar/bz2 from there?  It should be able to write to the NTFS partition, and restore everything.

Because I'm stubborn like that The Gentoo LiveCD is small enough that I can shove it onto an 8cm CD.

The problem with the WinPE method, as far as I can see, is that I wouldn't have access to Bash and tar, which I need. Plus, I don't have access to a copy of Microsoft's Windows PE....

Does anyone else have any insight into the whole NTFS vs. converted-NTFS thing?

[Marsden]

NTFS is NTFS... does not matter how it is done...

[tak]

Okay.

I just did a little bit of researching.

Seems that FAT32 --> NTFS fragments the MFT, according to things from multiple sources.

[link]

There are disadvantages to converting your drive rather than creating it as NTFS in the first place. The conversion process could fragment the Master File Table reducing performance. Additionally, NTFS permissions are not applied to the partition holding your operating system when you convert it instead of formatting it that way in the first place.

Bleh. Guess that's a problem. Maybe I'll try Captive NTFS to write to disk and live with the slow speeds, unless anyone else has more insight into this....

[jcarle]

You can convert the FAT or FAT32 partition to NTFS. This leaves files intact, although the partition may have somewhat more fragmentation and slower performance than a partition formatted with NTFS. However, it is still advantageous to use NTFS, regardless of whether the partition was formatted with NTFS or converted.

Source: microsoft.com

There are disadvantages to converting your drive rather than creating it as NTFS in the first place. The conversion process could fragment the Master File Table reducing performance. Additionally, NTFS permissions are not applied to the partition holding your operating system when you convert it instead of formatting it that way in the first place.

Source: felgall.com

IMHO, it's always best to format fresh then to convert. It's the same mentality as that of upgrading an OS vs fresh install. Fresh is always better.

EDIT: Looks like I posted the same thing tak did. oops.

EDIT: Why don't you use Norton Ghost?

[George27]

If you use the convert ntfs switch, generally speaking, xp runs sluggishly. As pointed out the mft is fragmented and the sector size needs to be changed (increased to 1026, I believe, I might be wrong), so you need some sort of partition tool. You need to use the /Cvtarea switch to keep the mft together. The default size of the mft is 12.5% of the partition size.

And I'm just writting out the instructions on how to do it :

"Use the Fustil command to create a contiguous placeholder file equal in size to the mft you want to create. This file must be created in the root of the drive to be converted. Such as: fsutil file createnew c:\testfile.txt 1250000000 (based on a 10gb partition)

You can use any file legal name, for the final parameter, substitute the proper size for the placeholder file in bytes.

Run the convet command using the following syntax:

convert C: /fs:ntfs /cvtrea:testfile.txt "

I got a free upgrade from Dell to XP and they recommended an upgrade installl. I really didn't know the first thing at the time on doing a clean install and did it the way they recommended and it really stunk up the performance. Also the checkdisk utility didn't work you always got an error message that was unfixable using the /f switch.

[JoeMSFN]

Searching in "ref.chm" under

FileSystem = ConvertNTFS

I found this link .

It states

MFT and NTFS Conversion Optimizations

For best performance, it is also important that the MFT be stored in a contiguous location on disk. The new /cvtarea flag for the Windows XP version of CONVERT (described later in this article) allows system manufacturers to implement a manufacturing process that results in a properly located contiguous MFT for NTFS volumes.

Also I know I read earlier in this thread about "WinPE". If you check out BartPE builder. It only requires

Requirements to build:

1. The files from your Windows Installation CD-Rom.

      Supported Windows versions are:

          * Windows XP Home Edition (must be slip streamed with Service Pack 1 or higher)

          * Windows XP Professional (must be slip streamed with Service Pack 1 or higher)

          * Windows Server 2003, Web Edition

          * Windows Server 2003, Standard Edition

          * Windows Server 2003, Enterprise Edition

Also doing a search for cygwin, it turns out PE Builder uses cygwin1.dll

I've installed that once (lots of the package, not just the dll), and I know it has UNIX commands, perhaps even the ones you require/desire.

I'm not familiar with either of the above techniques, but I have made a BartPE disk, and it worked. I also remember reading about the optimizations for FAT32->NTFS conversions. Thought I'd add this to help give a searching point. Looks like MFT optimization is what you have to worry about. But maybe BartPE with some cygwin stuff might help.

[pthomas]

The problem that you are having with writing to the NTFS file system resides in the kernel that the live CD is using. Most of the Gentoo live cds are pretty robust, but I do not think that any of them have WRITE support turned on for the NTFS filesystem.

By default the live cd will have READ-ONLY access compiled into the kernel, but beyond that, you may have to get either an updated kernel that has NTFS write support compiled in, or compile a kernel with NTFS write support and create your own custom Gentoo Live CD.

The easier way if you like the Gentoo Live cds for flexibility...try knoppix linux. Its a bootable linux distro like the Live CDs but its a fully working linux enviornment that boots off of cd and doesn;t mess with the hdd. I believe it has NTFS write support built in by default as long as you boot off of the 2.6 series kernel.

Give knoppix a try, it sounds exactly like what you are looking for and more:

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html

Using knoppix 3.6 or later will allow you to write to the NTFS filesystem.

Enjoy,

Paul

[secowu]

•s

i think,origial ntfs is better for working. i like it.

but where i can download pe?