Will USB work on a WinFWG 3.11 PC?

[jds]

I don't know which particular flavour of 'usbaspi.sys' is 'usbaspi1.sys', however, my recommendation is the Panasonic version, which from memory is available on their web site in a archive named 'f2h_usb.exe'.

Then your next choice is which disk driver to run on top of this. My recommendation is one of :

1. 'di1000dd.sys' - supports fixed media format (MBR) only, provides an Int 13h interface.

2. 'nj32disk.sys' - supports removable media format (no MBR) only.

3. 'aspidisk.sys' - supports both media formats.

Generally, I use #3, except if I need to use 'fdisk' on a fixed media format drive, in which case I use 'di1000dd.sys'. Actually, that's a lie, because if I need to use 'fdisk', it's usually because the MBR is broken, in which case 'di1000dd.sys' will usually crash anyway. So I use my own tools to read/write the MBR to/from a local (temporary) file and Norton's 'diskedit' to play around with the partition table within the local file.

Now, here's an extract from my 'config.sys' :

[DOS_USB]

REM - Panasonic's universal USB-controller driver (formerly Novac)
device=C:\ASPI_USB.DRV\PANASONC\USBASPI.SYS /v /w
REM - Adaptec's ASPI disk driver (supports with/without partition table)
device=c:\ASPI_USB.DRV\Adaptec\aspidisk.sys

You need to check where your crash occurs, is it with 'usbaspi.sys' or 'di1000dd.sys'?

One tip - The Panasonic 'usbaspi.sys' driver works very well with most (but not all) USB hubs. So much so, that the compatibility with various drives is almost 100% if you connect via such a hub, rather than directly via a root hub.

Finally, there's no reason to dismiss WFW3.11 as a possibility here. It should work.

Joe.

[jaclaz]

So at this point I'm not sure if it's because I'm doing something wrong (putting in the wrong driver files, or placing them in the wrong order) or because the card will simply never work in that PC. FWIW the BIOS is so old that it has zero awareness of USB -- there's not even an option to enable "Legacy USB" -- although I've read somewhere that this should not be an obstacle to using USB off a PCI card.

Any ideas?

Guess why I was talking of PLoP and "BIOS extensions"?

1. Your BIOS deos NOT know *anything* about USB.
   
2. Your BIOS does not know *anything* about that PCI card.
   
3. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _<-insert here somethign that wil add info about that card to the BIOS reported info
   
4. DOS trusts (blindly) info that comes from BIOS.
   

You do understand how *something* is needed on the dotted line?

Now could this be PLoP? Cannot say, you need to try and see.

jaclaz

[jds]

* Your BIOS deos NOT know *anything* about USB.

* Your BIOS does not know *anything* about that PCI card.

jaclaz

* His BIOS doesn't need to know anything about USB. In fact, it could complicate things if it did.

* His BIOS doesn't need to know anything specific about his PCI card. The fact that it has PCI slots means the BIOS will know enough to assign appropriate resources (IRQ, I/O, memory addresses) to the card. From there, it's up to the 'usbaspi.sys' driver, to know and support the card's chipset.

Joe.

Edited August 17, 2011 by jds

[JorgeA]

Joe,

I didn't get a chance today to look more closely into jaclaz's idea about PLoP (I admit that its purpose is still fuzzy to me), but then notice of your post arrived and what you said about IRQs caught my eye. I'd been wondering if an IRQ conflict might be the cause of the problem.

Unfortunately, this BIOS allows me to manually assign only IRQ 9, 10, or 11. By default it's set to 10. I tried 9 and 11 (the only other option is OFF), and the system crashed both times, requiring a power cycle.

I may try a USB driver other than usbaspi.sys, because for whatever reason it's not doing the trick. (In case it matters, I'm using the Panasonic version 2.20. It worked great for me when I installed Win98SE off a USB stick onto a little laptop designed for Win95. But that laptop has an integrated USB port. Also, the di1000dd.sys driver is NOVAC version 2.0. But this one won't be an issue till I get a driver that will help the PC to find the USB host controller.)

One last data bit. The BIOS version is AMIBIOS ©1992 by American Megatrends, BIOS Version A05. (I bought that PC from Dell in June 1994, with Windows for Workgroups 3.11 pre-installed.)

Maybe I should post the Win98SE boot disk's CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files for inspection. If it might help, maybe I can also redirect the screen output to a text file so that I can attach it. But only if you guys think it could help.

--JorgeA

[jds]

Jorge,

You should not manually assign IRQ's for PCI devices, only ISA devices, and even that would be only for non-PnP ones.

What you may need to do, is set some BIOS setting to "non-PnP O/S" or some such. This would tell the BIOS that it's its job to assign resources for PnP devices, particularly PCI cards. Not sure if this would also handle ISA-PnP device resources, typically that is handled by a small utility after boot.

The BIOS will exclude any IRQ you've manually assigned, when it's working out available resources for PnP devices.

Joe.

PS. Also check for a BIOS update for your MB.

Edited August 17, 2011 by jds

[jaclaz]

* His BIOS doesn't need to know anything about USB. In fact, it could complicate things if it did.

* His BIOS doesn't need to know anything specific about his PCI card. The fact that it has PCI slots means the BIOS will know enough to assign appropriate resources (IRQ, I/O, memory addresses) to the card. From there, it's up to the 'usbaspi.sys' driver, to know and support the card's chipset.

We are talking two different "languages".

I am talking of booting, you are talking of accessing "post boot".

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

Maybe this is where the confusion lies. I'm not trying to create a system where I boot the PC and then tell it which OS to load -- if I want WFWG 3.11, I'll simply avoid putting in a boot floppy, and let the computer boot normally off the hard disk. What I wish to do (if possible) is to create a floppy-to-USB boot sequence where the boot floppy would load and then direct the computer's attention to the USB stick, where I could then install a new OS and it would reside there.

But the first requirement is to get the PC to recognize the existence of the USB PCI card -- without that, everything else is moot. I read the PLoP documentation tonight, and I am just not sure that it will help me to do that. Will PLoP find a USB host controller where usbaspi.sys didn't? This line is the closest I could get to an explanation.

Any thoughts?

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Jorge,

You should not manually assign IRQ's for PCI devices, only ISA devices, and even that would be only for non-PnP ones.

What you may need to do, is set some BIOS setting to "non-PnP O/S" or some such. This would tell the BIOS that it's its job to assign resources for PnP devices, particularly PCI cards. Not sure if this would also handle ISA-PnP device resources, typically that is handled by a small utility after boot.

The BIOS will exclude any IRQ you've manually assigned, when it's working out available resources for PnP devices.

Joe.

PS. Also check for a BIOS update for your MB.

Joe,

Thanks for the information, it helped to guide my research.

I came across this page which suggests using a driver named DWCFGMG.SYS. My PC was built before PnP came into fashion, and there is no mention of it in the PC model's manual.

What do you think?

--JorgeA

[dencorso]

Will PLoP find a USB host controller where usbaspi.sys didn't?

Well... it should. It was written for that.

In any case there's an older thread that I think you might find into, so please do read this post and several of those following it. The thead is a long one, but starting from the post I've pointed you to, there shouldn't be too many to read.

[jds]

Joe,

Thanks for the information, it helped to guide my research.

I came across this page which suggests using a driver named DWCFGMG.SYS. My PC was built before PnP came into fashion, and there is no mention of it in the PC model's manual.

What do you think?

--JorgeA

Well, all PCI devices are PnP, so an MB supporting PCI must support PnP, I should think. The web page you referenced says "In the mid-1990s, PC vendors began to update their motherboards with a PnP BIOS", which is about the age of your MB, so that seems consistent. Don't forget to check for an updated BIOS, just in case of bugs in its PnP support.

Now, I'm not familiar with 'DWCFGMG.SYS', and this may perhaps be for ISA-PnP support, but certainly the brief description suggests some sort of PnP support anyway. A search of the web reveals it's associated with 'ICU.EXE' from Intel, however, the URL "ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/icu/" no longer points to anything. However, 'DWCFGMG.SYS' can be found in 'Driver20.cab' on the W98SE CD-ROM.

Once you get this all going, I'd suggest ditching the floppy and have a boot menu in 'config.sys'.

HTH,

Joe.

[jaclaz]

jaclaz,

Maybe this is where the confusion lies. I'm not trying to create a system where I boot the PC and then tell it which OS to load -- if I want WFWG 3.11, I'll simply avoid putting in a boot floppy, and let the computer boot normally off the hard disk. What I wish to do (if possible) is to create a floppy-to-USB boot sequence where the boot floppy would load and then direct the computer's attention to the USB stick, where I could then install a new OS and it would reside there.

But the first requirement is to get the PC to recognize the existence of the USB PCI card -- without that, everything else is moot. I read the PLoP documentation tonight, and I am just not sure that it will help me to do that. Will PLoP find a USB host controller where usbaspi.sys didn't? This line is the closest I could get to an explanation.

Any thoughts?

--JorgeA

No, no confusion, as said two different "techniques" or "approaches".

What you wanted to do (and jds is helping you about) is:

• boot the IO.SYS on the floppy
  
• from the booted from floppy environment load the rest of the system from USB device
  

What I suggested you trying was another thing :

• boot the PLoP on the floppy (or add it as an option to the boot menu of your internal hard disk)
  
• from it load the IO.SYS and all the other files from USB device
  

"Your" way you will have floppy access after boot (besides dutring it), "my" way (provided that it works ), you won't, and if it works and you add it to internal HD you won't need the floppy at all.

If you prefer I was replying to the question:

How can I boot WfW from a USB disk?

and not to :

How can I boot WfW from a USB disk through booting from floppy, loading DOS, load a USB driver in DOS, then load the Windows 3.1 from the USB disk?

PLoP is written EXPRESSLY to detect and access a USB (or PCMCIA) device the BIOS knows nothing about.

Whether it will work on your particular hardware/setup is to test and see.

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

In any case there's an older thread that I think you might find into, so please do read this post and several of those following it. The thead is a long one, but starting from the post I've pointed you to, there shouldn't be too many to read.

dencorso,

Thanks very much for the link, that was informative if not (sadly) very fruitful.

I tried a whole bunch of usbaspi.sys versions: 2.00, 2.06, 2.15, 2.20. 2.24, 2.27, and 2.28. None succeeded in finding a USB host controller. I also tried the Symantec aspiehci.sys driver, and that one reported "adapter not found" or something like that.

@jds: Dell does have an updated BIOS for that model PC. However, it's like a sarcastic joke -- Dell recommends that "the customer review specifics about the update to determine if it applies to your system," and then goes on to give absolutely no details as to what the BIOS update is intended to change or improve. So I hesitate to do anything with that, given the infamous risks of a botched BIOS update.

@jaclaz: I'm going to look more closely at PLoP. The instructions for use (such as there may be) don't seem to be self-explanatory. But as I said, I'll take a closer look.

This old PC has two hard disks in it. The first one (1GB) is full to the brim, the second one is a full copy of the first, plus IE4 and 5 and a few other files that have been added. It has about 1GB of space left (2.1GB to begin with). I could erase everything on that second drive, but in order to keep using IE5 I'd have to delete a bunch of stuff off the first drive so I could move IE (and the swap file) to it. Then I could install a newer version of Windows on the second HDD and make that the master drive. As old as it is, that PC does seem to meet the hardware requirements for Win98. But, ultimately, this may be the more practical way to go.

What do you guys think?

--JorgeA

Edited August 20, 2011 by JorgeA

[dencorso]

I think those HDDs must be so near the end of their lifes that I'd rather not mess with them. I've got a 1275 MB Seagate Medalist ST31277A sitting on a shelf because I consider it too old and too little to do anything with it (it was produced in the 49th week of 1997). I've just bought 3 used HDDs, one 20 GB, one 30 GB and one 40 GB for US$ 10 the lot. The 20 GB HDD died in 3 days of testing but the other two survided and are now in use. Except for the time and patience invested, they cost me very little and are much bigger than your HDDs. I'd go for a 20 or 30 GB HDD, if I were you. Then I'd clone the partition of the 1 GB disk into it as one of its partitions and still have plenty space for three more. Then again, only you can decide whether this would be worth the effort. Of course, if you can get PLoP to work, all I said above cannot beat using PLoP with no hardware changes at all.

[jaclaz]

@jaclaz: I'm going to look more closely at PLoP. The instructions for use (such as there may be) don't seem to be self-explanatory. But as I said, I'll take a closer look.

With all due respect , you are making a fuss out of nothing, WHAT is so difficult:

http://www.plop.at/en/bootmanager.html#noinstall

Run from Floppy with a disk image

A floppy disk image is a file that contains every sector of the floppy disk. You cannot copy the image file on a floppy disk like a common file. It's required to use a special program that writes sector per sector of the image file to the floppy disk sectors. There are many programs available to do this.

Download the current boot manager plpbt-5.0.13.zip. Extract it to get the floppy disk image plpbt.img.

How to create the floppy:

DOS: You can use diskimg.com with diskimg -d a -w plpbt.img

Windows: Write the disk image with the program rawwritewin to the floppy disk

Linux: dd if=plpbt.img of=/dev/fd0

I have RARELY seen in my life such simple, direct, easy and comprehensive set of instructions.

Of course, if you need a map , I can draw one for you .

jaclaz

Edited August 20, 2011 by jaclaz

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

These "instructions" you link to (and those ARE the ones I was referring to) say ONLY how to create the floppy disk image -- not HOW to actually use the program afterward. So I create the image, and then what?!

jaclaz, I've been running a chess club for nearly two decades. I am fully conscious of the fact that not every new person who comes into the club is as proficient as I am in chess, or as familiar with chess culture or with the details of playing in tournaments. I want them to enjoy the art/sport of chess as much as I do, and I want to encourage them to pursue it and to keep learning. Therefore, I take pride in welcoming newcomers and offering as much explanation as necessary so that everyone can feel comfortable being at the club and participating. If I were to treat them with the sarcasm that you have just shown me, our members could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

So spare me the cute little emoticons, they do NOT lessen the impact of your cutting words. And those words are NOT appreciated.

If you intend to help, then do kindly help. Otherwise I am not interested in what you have to say.