Recommend a UPS?

[DigeratiPrime]

Looking into getting a UPS to solve the occasional power dropout for my home server. Electricity isn't my forte so I am looking for advice.

I was comparing the APC Back-UPS and Smart-UPS and from what I can tell the difference is the latter also has an integrated line conditioner. I have heard that the power supplies in computers though aren't that sensitive and don't need a line conditioner, though it should not need to switch to battery whenever the voltage input varies and thus last longer.

I also would like network management if possible, however going with APC would require a UPS with a "SmartSlot" and separate purchase of a "Network Management Card" and PCNS software. Their product seems good but ridiculously expensive, so I am looking for alternatives.

[EDIT] Server description:

AMD Phenom X4 9850

BIOSTAR TForce TF8200 A2+

(4) 1GB DDR2-800 RAM

(4) 1TB 7200 RPM HDD

(2) 1.5TB 7200 RPM HDD

(2) Intel PCI-E Gigabit NIC (EXPI9301CTBLK)

Seasonic M12 II 500W

[ripken204]

what is your price range?

[DigeratiPrime]

I'd say from free to $200 USD if I think it will be worth it in the long run. I might also be adding another server identical to the one described later, so I might need another UPS or a really good one.

[ripken204]

well for $200 this is a good one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16842101067

but i am wondering if you really need one like that, i have a couple APC UPSs that are no more than $100 for my computers: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16842101311

Now it really depends on how much you are going to put on the UPS.

If it's just that server then the cheaper one will work just fine.

Also keep in mind that you will only be getting like 10min of protection.

So really the first thing you need to do is to figure out everything that you want to hook up.

[DigeratiPrime]

Its just the server no peripherals or monitor. 10 minutes of protection is probably ok.

Ideally I would like enough time to shutdown or hibernate several hyper-v child (guest) partitions and the parent (host), that will require some sort of monitor though, and APC wants $100 for that PCNS software. Or if I could get a notification via email or similar that would maybe give me a chance to do it myself, or at least give me a clue why its offline.

http://www.apc-forums.com/thread.jspa?threadID=3169

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techsp...se_sku=SEPCNSHV

Or if I could get the UPS to just run a command then I could work with this:

http://blogs.msdn.com/virtual_pc_guy/archi...al-machine.aspx

I will hook up a kill-a-watt meter later to find the watt usage under different loads.

BTW I edited my first post to add to network cards I forgot to mention, not that it should change much.

[CoffeeFiend]

the latter also has an integrated line conditioner

APC also has models with that feature.

I have heard that the power supplies in computers though aren't that sensitive and don't need a line conditioner

Good power supplies can handle brownouts, minor fluctuations and the like pretty well already.

I also would like network management if possible, however going with APC would require a UPS with a "SmartSlot" and separate purchase of a "Network Management Card" and PCNS software. Their product seems good but ridiculously expensive, so I am looking for alternatives.

That would notify all your Hyper-V clients (assuming you install it in all your OS'es of course), but it's a bit extreme for a simple home server, and not cheap indeed.

10 minutes of protection is probably ok.

I would try a typical shutdown sequence, including stopping your usual number of VMs running. It might only take 3 or 4 minutes. Depending on power draw, you might be able to go for a lesser capacity model too (1250VA would likely do just fine), saving a few bucks.

that will require some sort of monitor though, and APC wants $100 for that PCNS software. Or if I could get a notification via email or similar that would maybe give me a chance to do it myself, or at least give me a clue why its offline.

And that is your biggest issue by far. Picking a plain old UPS is very simple. But here it depends on what will happen when your Win 2008 box gets the shutdown command (does it shutdown or "pause" VMs first?) or do they just stop? Or would the APC soft let you run a command instead? (haven't used it in quite a while, too lazy to look)

Anyways. Don't forget you'll also have to buy new batteries every 3 years or so (give or take a little, depending on brand, usage and so on), which sometimes cost almost as much as the UPS does. I remember a few years ago, where it was cheaper for us to buy replacement APC UPS'es than to order replacement batteries from them... That's the main reason why I don't use UPS'es anymore. There's lots of people who seemingly wouldn't run anything without a UPS, but I hate having to replace a large battery like every 6 months...

[DigeratiPrime]

From what I understand a switching mode power supply as in a computer, already adjusts "itself" based on the actual load from its components and is therefore also able to handle variations in the power source. My reason for considering a line conditioner or line interactive UPS with built in buck/boost is so the battery lasts longer. The APC Back-UPS seem to be stand-by units without this capability.

I think I will need the ability to run a command since the host does not automatically shut down the guests (with IC) in Hyper-V (Server 2008 R2); the only way is a WMI script. The alternative is to install proprietary client software on every OS that listens to the UPS on USB (messy) or LAN (expensive).

I would like an event log so I could know if the UPS had a fault and shutdown the server, I could setup an task for the corresponding event to email me, so I could use WOL to turn on the server again.

I do have the host BIOS set so 'POWER After PWR-Fail' is enabled, but I don't think it will turn on automatically after the UPS receives power again. Thus the UPS should probably wait if power is off for more then a instant before shutting down the server. Ideally this would be a definable threshold, since load and battery capacity can vary.

I've also been looking for different UPS manufacturers, here are the ones I've come across if anyone is interested:

APC, Tripp Lite, Powerware, Liebert, Belkin

I know it seems I am asking for a lot, I am just trying to figure this out. I still need to look closer at replacement battery's and prices.

New details:

74 seconds to shutdown host and 3 guests

264 watts peak on disk spin up - CoffeeFiend you were right about the dramatic difference mentioned in my RAID topic

180 watts when all drives active and cpu maxed.

[CoffeeFiend]

My reason for considering a line conditioner or line interactive UPS with built in buck/boost is so the battery lasts longer. The APC Back-UPS seem to be stand-by units without this capability.

That only provides longer battery life during brownouts (and again, not every APC model is a standby unit). And in case of brownouts, you're most likely going to shut down anyways. The few brownouts I've seen (past the odd 1 second or so that might happen when someone starts a large compressor nearby or something similar) might last a half hour or so. Personally, I wouldn't spend too much on this, if not just based on how uncommon they are in general.

New details:

74 seconds to shutdown host and 3 guests

264 watts peak on disk spin up - CoffeeFiend you were right about the dramatic difference mentioned in my RAID topic

180 watts when all drives active and cpu maxed.

Based on that load, a small 500VA UPS would last nearly 10 minutes (plenty to shut down, even if the batteries aren't 100% and that you're running more than 3 VMs). It should be able to cope with the startup and it's inexpensive.

As for the start current, yeah. BLDC motor start current is always pretty high (84W extra, that's like an extra 7A right there). But at 264W, you're reading past the worst part of the peak already, where it plateaus for about a couple seconds. If you wanted to see the nastier part, you'd have to look at it with an oscilloscope through a 0.1Ω shunt on the 12v rail or such. It's just too quick to measure otherwise. There are ways to decrease it (e.g. using PWM, ramping up the percentage at startup over a few ms), but that would mean a slower drive and no one wants that (yes, I work with motors a fair bit)

P.S. I keep forgetting about looking for that HDMI cable to test 780G @ 1920x1200... And every time I look for it, I never manage to find it although it can't be too hard to find (was on a shelf somewhere, had to empty that place to change the water heater). I'll have a look tomorrow.

[gUiTaR_mIkE]

I use the APC Smart-UPS SUA 750 and love it, plus it has saved my bacon a few times when here in California the power

dipped as low as 102V to as high as 133V as well the token outages - this UPS didn't flinch and neither did my equipment

@ about 38% load. I'm not sure all the features of the free version of PowerChute Business Edition but I do believe you

could run a command to shutdown, send email etc. It also has a logging feature, it is true it is not cheap but you have to

decide is your investment worthwhile - you could stand to loose a lot of valuable data as well hardware.

When it came time to replace the battery I think I might have cried, this is the only caveat with a UPS device, battery

replacement can be expensive (and iffy) and your replacement will likely be from Korea and only come with a 1 yr warranty.

I used BuyUPSOnline for my replacement battery for my SUA 750 and also purchased a refurbished Smart-UPS that comes

with a full 3 year warranty, I am really happy so far. The APC tech recommended I use them over anyone else, they are

APC's certified repair facility. I only mention them because a good UPS can cost a bundle, you should have a look at some

of their refurbished rack stuff they may have something you like.

I can only vouch for my 1 battery and 1 refurbished UPS purchase, 2 years later all is well, like I said the recommendation

came from an APC tech. I did pull the UPS apart, looked it over and tested it and I was happy. I think most batteries are

from 3 main sources and your new APC battery (in your new APC UPS) could likely originate from the same place your

replacement comes from - just rebranded.

[DigeratiPrime]

CoffeeFiend I think your point about brownouts being rare and not a major factor for the overal life of the UPS are probably true. Also I knew oscilloscopes we're going to come up sooner or later As for the AMD chipset I will probably pass on them because I tend to need RAID 1 on boxes, and I cannot find any significant info on AMD RAIDXpert. I am rapidly becoming an Intel only guy as far as chipsets go.

gUiTaR_mIkE thanks for the info on PCBE and link to a certified APC refurbish dealer. Also I think the APC Smart-UPS 750 is my current top pick and I see a few places selling batteries for it for around $40 too.

I found that PC Personal and Business Edition both write to the Event Log, so if I know the Event ID I should be able to create a task to both send an email and run that WMI script. Also not sure but Vista/7 might recognize a UPS if connected through USB and still log events without any APC software installed.

I confirmed that with APC units if the line power comes on after the PC shuts down and the UPS is off then the UPS will turn on and soft power on the PC if the BIOS supports it.

I've also come across a rumor that ATX Power Supplies with Active PFC are less efficient if the UPS output is not a pure sine wave and may drop off when the UPS switches from mains to battery; not 100% sure about this.

[CoffeeFiend]

As for the AMD chipset I will probably pass on them because I tend to need RAID 1 on boxes, and I cannot find any significant info on AMD RAIDXpert.

Mostly because no one uses that piece of software to create arrays (well, it's also to monitor them). You just set it up in the option ROM that comes up after the BIOS, just like with any another RAID solution I've seen (it uses a Promise option ROM e.g. the OROM has a Vendor ID 1002/Device ID 4392 on my M3A78-EM). There's very, very little difference between that and all the other software RAID offerings (they should call it "me too RAID" ) It's licensed by Promise tech. Several DLLs installed by RAIDXpert say "Promise Tech" in their resources too. Can't be much worse than any of the others... In fact, I've seen reports of people pulling their RAID arrays from a AMD-based RAID, plugging it on a Promise card and being recognized / working as-is.

I am rapidly becoming an Intel only guy as far as chipsets go.

The box I'm writing this on is a OC'ed C2D with Intel P35 chipset so I'm not exactly a hater. But I just didn't see the point of going with the old Socket 775 and a FSB based design, when on the AMD side, the boards were cheaper overall (mostly because 99% of mATX boards for Intel CPUs are absolute trash, and usually crippled in many ways e.g. only 2 DIMM slots), had great onboard video (more cost savings), and are going to be compatible with modern quad cores for a while (AM3 is coming though), and AMD had some nice low power chips (45W TDP). A similar Intel board would've been an extra $50 or so, and then another $50 or so for a decent basic vid card, only to be stuck with a discontinued architecture... And i7 is just too bloody expensive.

As for the next box I'm building, it'll also be AMD, also because Intel cripples its non-high end CPUs i.e. no VT, whereas AMD-V is found even on $50 CPUs (Win7's XP compatibility mode and Hyper-V both require it). It's the exact same scenario as far as ECC RAM goes (supported by many $70 AMD boards, and not on most $150 Intel boards). Chipset wise, I've been very happy with AMD's offerings, just like Intel's. I only wish I could say the same about some others though (like via or nvidia).

BTW, Matrix RAID seems to be pretty bad for bugs lately, see this one (annoying timeouts in event manager, PC taking forever to wake from sleep, drives not resuming from sleep, tasks that can't even be killed because of it, installers choking on the "calculating free space" stage, emptying trash bin basically not working, etc), and see also jcarle's epic fail thread. Intel makes good chipsets, but they're hardly perfect.

As for Active PFC, I doubt it will make much of a change.

BuyUPSOnline has some crazy deals. It just sucks having to pay the whole international shipping (and customs clearance) though

[DigeratiPrime]

Well I've gone ahead and ordered a refurbished UPS, I hope the deal isn't too good to be true.

APC Smart-UPS 750 SUA750 for $109.99 shipping was only $12.

http://www.refurbups.com/SUA750-APC-Smart-UPS-750VA-USB

[gUiTaR_mIkE]

I see a few places selling batteries for it for around $40 too.

True, I use the RBC5 and $40 to $50 seems about right. Why I cried is I need to upgrade my UPS to handle all my

computer based recording gear and I began looking at some of the 2000VA to 3000VA rack units and the battery

prices are crazy, and the fact they have only a 1 yr warranty when it comes time for a replacement

...if the UPS output is not a pure sine wave

I wanted to say that if you look at most if not all mission critical environments, pure sine wave is recommended over a

simulated (stepped) wave. Like I said earlier if your hardware and data matter use the preferred method, but you can

start a fight with others who don't care. This also brings to mind the quality of the power supply, again another area

where most PC enthusiasts simply are in the dark. To them all power supplies are created equal and to them a variation

of (+-).4 or .5 volts is unimportant - not to your equipment it isn't.

Point being...A well designed power supply that can maintain the proper voltages and has only slight voltage irregularities

along with the necessary power cleaning facilities accompanied with a UPS of the same caliber is a must if your hardware

and data matter.

I was in a Digital Audio / Recording class a while back and had a talk with my teacher about what he used to protect his

equipment at home, he has an elaborate Mac system, a crazy quad core setup, 2 32" HD monitors and so on, he has about

$3000 invested in protecting his equipment. I wish I could remember the name of the UPS he is using - expensive - and I

had never heard of it but knowing him I bet it is top of the line.

BTW, the $3000 is the price of a combined method for battery back up in the event of a power outage but the lesson is he

felt his investment in hardware / software / data deserved it.

I can see you posted as I'm writing - I'm sure your purchase will be a good one

[DigeratiPrime]

Well I wanted to write back on how things have turned out. I did receive the UPS on Tuesday the 28th but I had some strange problem with it. I connected the battery and mains so it started charging, it seemed fine so I went out. I came home about 3 hours later and it was dead, not sure why... I called and they overnighted me a replacement and it's working fine thus far

I connected it to a Windows 7 x64 RC (7100) PC via USB and it was recognized immediately: it appears in the system tray like a laptop battery and in the device stage. Installing PCBE Single Node Agent lets you access its Status, Logs, and Configuration though a web interface using Java. I will be trying it on my server over the next few days.

[EDIT] Screenshot showing 36 minutes of battery backup

[ripken204]

good to hear

Edited July 31, 2009 by ripken204