PsycoUnc

-wow, that IS a lot of work, getting rid of most/all LFN's, and updating registry links as well... wow ...I personally have the bad habit of cramming waaaay too much info into folder names, as to explain exactly what's in that folder, and even what's not! -I've often hit the "max path limit", even inside windows, that way! lol... shame... --but, yup, your method does sound like the best, safest way to go, avoiding even the possibility of bad linking... personally, again, all those itty-bitty-teeny-tiny file/folder names would drive me nuts... >;] (ps: I'm surprised this little side-topic hasn't attracted the usual "UPGRADE TO XP, YA DINOSAURS!" squawkers, yet... B) )

-good idea, just backing up what 98se2me replaces/changes... I always wanted to suggest that, but didn't wanna make that much more work for ya (btw, doslfnbk's license is slightly ambiguous: first paragraph says 30-day trial, but 2nd paragraph relates to freeware re-dist: " You are free to distribute unmodified copies of the complete DOSLFNBK package, provided your total charge is no more than $1. The total cost of a compilation (e.g. a CD ROM) including DOSLFNBK must be no more than $1 per package in the compilation. " --2nd paragraph doesn't specify that u must have purchased the full license, prior to re-dist... only specifies that ya can't charge more than $1, total... hmmm.... ) ...and pkzip, forget about it... maybe I looked in the wrong place, but unless I'm wrong, it mentioned OVER $1,000 for a license! sheesh... perhaps that's just a "commercial" license, not relating to freeware, dunno... but ya don't really need pkzip, anyway... just need doslfnbk... (or get one of the coders in these forums to blast up a quikie mini-replacement for xxcopy, I can already think of the simple logic for it, just not familiar with present day OS-coding...) >;] (btw, that latest "experimental" addition to 98se2me, is that still rated as "experimental", or is it now considered completely safe?)

-uh oh... XCLONE, which is used here to make the original windows OS backup, has the same flaw as most copy/zip/backup utils: it will sometimes swap the "~1", "~2", Short File Names (SFN's) of files/dirs! (this bug even eludes it's built-in "verify destination files" function...) -This will screw-up links (inside the Registry, too), sometimes causing instability, functional issues, errors, etc... Backups need to be reliable, always... XCLONE needs to be replaced... [-but good luck, I've searched/tested looooong and hard, for ANY copy/zip/backup progs which DON'T have that very same flaw, and only XXCOPY and DOSLFNBK dealt with that issue properly!... (and even doslfnbk has limits: very large sub-dirs, like Plus!, X-Setup, etc, need to be done separately, or cross-linked files/errors will result] -If you (MDGx) write the authors of XXCOPY, asking permission, they might give it, as per the documentation regarding freeware re-dist... -otherwise, the only (reliable) way I know of, is using doslfnbk along with pkzip "-n"... >;]

! UH OH, MDGx ! -your XCLONE fails the "~1", "~2" LFN/SFN preservation test, too! -any backup made with XCLONE will have the same potential SFN-swapping flaws! (in most cases, it won't be noticeable, true, but NOT all cases... it is NOT completely reliable, then, and really should be replaced...) >;] (edit: -if u really don't want to use xxcopy, then perhaps a combination of doslfnbk & pkzip "-n -e0" (store, no compression)... both those tools will work in either Windows or real-mode dos, and the combination WILL preserve the SFN/LFN relationship perfectly...)

--those tools are good for backup copies, but if ya then want to zip/unzip (or maybe burn to cd) the copied dirs/files, you will need to add an additional tool, DOSLFNBK: ... -because of a REDICULOUS inherent glitch in win95/98/98se's file creation function: if ya unzip a backup, the associations between each file/folder's Long File Name and it's Short File Name (SFN, or "8.3" DOS name) will sometimes get messed-up: windows assigns the SFN's in a flawed way, assigning the "~1", "~2" during the re-creation of the files, NOT from the original file's information... this flaw will sometimes swap the SFN's for similarly-named files/folders, when unzipping or copying/moving, and that causes glitches/errors/instability... DOSLFNBK backs-up the LFN/SFN associations for a directory tree, then ya have to "strip" away the LFN's BEFORE zipping em up (so that when unzipping, windows won't screw-up the SFN's because of the LFN's), then when unzipping the backup, run DOSLFNBK /R to automatically rename/restore the LFN's to the newly-created SFN files... ... -it's not as hard as it sounds, but it IS the only way to ensure that each file and folder gets it's original SFN/LFN back properly... any files or folders which have the same first 6 characters (for example, in Program Files, the folders "Windows Media Player" and "Windows Update" have SFNs "WINDOW~1" and "WINDOW~2", and after zipping/unzipping, those "~1,~2" 's sometimes get swapped) are vulnerable to this "built-in" Windows flaw, which is the reason DOSLFNBK was created... (note: copying/burning files/folders to a backup cd messes with the SFN's even worse: ya really gotta zip em all up first) -so, before zipping up a backup copy, run "doslfnbk . /all" (works in both real-mode dos or inside Windows), then strip away the LFN's (several different methods to do this: in real-dos mode, any regular copy (not LCOPY) will do it, or inside Windows use "XXCOPY /N", the "/N" strips away the LFN leaving only the SFN for the copy), then zip it up, and when restoring, just unzip, then run "doslfnbk . /r" to restore all the LFN's... (if ya use PKZIP, it's "-n" option will ignore the LFN's, using only the SFN's, during the zip operation, so stripping the LFN's ahead of time is not necessary... but ya still need to use DOSLFNBK before & after the zip, to return the LFN's) -every (FREE) copy/zip/backup program that I've tried (and I've tested SO MANY, including Window's own MSBACKUP!) has the same LFN/SFN creation flaw (with the exception of backing-up entire hard drive partitions; but that's a PAIN), they WILL sometimes swap the SFN's between similiarly-named files/folders, believe it or not, and that can cause problems... the ONLY method I've found that ALWAYS works is what I've mentioned above... MAYBE some "pay $" backup programs will automatically do the DOSLFNBK-functions, properly, but I've tested just about every FREE copy/zip/backup util, and they've all failed! (-Made me tear my hair out in clumps, for a very frustrating 2-wk testing period last year... lol) >;]

"And all tools that deal with LFN/SFN file operations must comply to preserve both." -not true, when copying/unzipping is involved; -they SHOULD comply, they SHOULD have the functions of DOSLFNBK built-in, but they don't... even the win98se os itself (using Explorer to copy or move files) messes-up the LFN/SFN associations, occasionally swapping the "~1, ~2"'s as I've explained/shown before... and that includes all the copy/unzip/backup utils (with the exception of whole-partition backup utils, of course, since they don't create individual files, they just directly copy back all the sectors)... even the built-in "MS BACKUP" tool has this flaw; I've tested it, just like all the copy/zip/backup progs... it made me pull my hair out by the roots, for a very frustrating 2-wk period last year, when I was desperately trying to find a truly reliable backup method/tool... if ya need examples, it's easy to reproduce the flaw, for whichever util ya wish, just ask me for the details... ... -XCLONE vs. XXCOPY: --yes, for your 98se2me project, xclone is a better choice, I was just talking about a backup/zip situation, where ya want to make multiple copies of the os and compress them into a backup file (ya don't want to have just straight directory copies without zipping em up, too many files to reside on the HD for each backup, not to mention how do ya burn em to backup cd's unless ya zip em up first, cd's filesystems mess with the SFN's even worse... not to mention size... of course keeping a dedicated backup partition is ok, but eventually ya want to be safe and burn em to cd too) -for 98se2me, where there's just one backup copy of windows directory, it's ok to leave it uncompressed, since it's just one copy, maybe 7000 files, but again if ya want to burn the backup to cd, how do ya do it w/out messin up the SFN's? (in most cases, win98se will function *mostly* ok with a few screwed-up SFN's, but not always: one example, and this is how I stumbled across this problem, is "Windows Media Player" and "Windows Update" folders in Program Files: when zipping/unzipping, the win98se OS frequently swapped their SFN's, and then the winmediaplayer didn't function rite (because some links in registry/etc still used the SFN, not the LFN, of the folder in prog.files...). -that's just one example of why DOSLFNBK is needed for backup purposes, to make sure the SFN's don't get accidentally swapped during restore/unzip, and the xxcopy "/N" feature (stripping LFN's) is needed (or PKZIP's "-n", same thing) before zipping up the system dirs, so that when ya unzip em in a future restore, the SFN's won't be messed up by the inherently-flawed LFN/SFN file creations... -I suppose ya could keep that backup partition full of unzipped copies of system dirs (using xclone or xxcopy, whichever), and then just once in a while use those "whole-partition" backup progs to save/burn the whole partition to cd's, but I like to make individual backup copies of the 2 system dirs, each one zipped-up into one file, easily/quickly burned to cd, and just as easily/quickly restored, w/out dealing with entire partitions/backups... -MDGx: how do you yourself make backups to cd? -do ya just do the "entire partition" thingy, or some other method?

? -that only happens the very first time it's run, to install it, in my experience... after it's installed, it never happens again, no nag, no extra keystrokes, and it also has additional switches for more automation of any prompts/defaults, too... (here comes more xxcopy praise : I've found xxcopy to be extremely simple (the /clone switch does pretty much everything ya need), and very fast (if HD is defragged, often get 20mb/sec true copy transfer rate, and that's with 5000-10000 files copied; not bad at all)) I think we're confusing terminology here: LFN compliant means it preserves the "long" filename, but does it ALSO ALWAYS preserve the SHORT (8.3) filename which is associated with the LFN? Windows itself does not, when copying files/folders in explorer; -Are u familiar with that classic win98 flaw, I call it the tilde ("~") flaw? This is what I'm talking about, keeping the 8.3 name & the LFN properly associated (if ya copy 2 or more files that have similar short names, like MICROS~1.TXT, and MICROS~2.TXT, at the same time to another directory, it sometimes SWITCHES the short (8.3) filenames, depending on which file it happens to create first... -same thing happens when unzipping files, the short name's "~1,~2", etc, are completely arbitrary, NOT necessarily the same as when ya zipped it up, they (8.3's) are numbered by the new file creation order only... it's a famous flaw, the reason for which DOSLFNBK was created (and is probably much better explained at it's web site) -and, with my testing, every zip/copy/backup prog (FREE, anyways), have failed to keep the proper association between 8.3 names & LFN's in some cases, making them useless for reliable backups (and believe me, I was SHOCKED when I discovered this, about 1 or 2 yrs ago... I couldn't believe it was so prevalent, so flawed, everywhere! ) >;]

-yup, that's exactly what I use, xxcopy /clone AND "/N" -to strip off the LFN's before zipping up the dir (otherwise, the zip programs will often mess-up the 8.3 filenames when unzipping (swap the "~1", "~2", etc)), which is why I need to use doslfnbk to back up the LFN's/8.3 filenames first, before stripping using xxcopy's "/N"; then I zip it up, and after unzipping use doslfnbk /r to restore the LFN's to the stripped 8.3 filenames, properly... [-after EXTENSIVE searching & testing of just about every FREE backup prog/util and zip util, this is the only method I've found that ALWAYS preserves the PROPER 8.3/LFN relationships (other than full-partition backups, of course... but that sux )... -if anybody else has found an other, FREE, prog/util/method, and has tested that LFN/8.3/"~" MS-win98se flaw PROPERLY with it, let me know, please... ]

-DOSLFN and DOSLFNBK perform different functions... doslfnbk backs up & restores all the LFN's/8.3 filenames in a dir-tree (whether in windows or real-mode dos), doslfn just allows u to read/work with lfn's in real-mode dos, but doesn't perform any backup/restore filename functions... -I've lightly perused your backup progs list, but it isn't mentioned if/which ones also preserve the lfn/8.3 filenames PROPERLY... (I've tested MANY free backup progs, including some on your list, and none of em passed the "~1, ~2" lfn/8.3 preservation test... same prob exists with zip utils: ya have to first save the lfn's, then change all the filenames into 8.3 format only (using xxcopy /N, or pkzip /N, etc) for the compression, then restore the filenames after de-compression... -otherwise, the "~1" and "~2" 's will sometimes get switched (same bug happens when ya use Explorer to copy or move a bunch of files; the 8.3's are NOT preserved, and sometimes get swapped, leading to bad links, system errors/instability, etc) (...the "save entire partition..." utils will probably work, preserving the names properly, of course, but saving an entire partition at a time is a bit extreme, for routine backup purposes...) -thx for the help, but it looks like I've got the doslfnbk limitation sorted out, splitting off 2 or 3 sub-dirs (of too many files in each) during the restore function... when I get the time/motivation, I'll continue testing your backup-utils list, see if any of em do really preserve LFN/8.3's properly... >;]

-MDGx, I noticed you removed a lot of font updates, because "Internet Font Packs, XP SP2 + 2003 SP1 install newer builds"... ? -the only Internet Font Pack I've seen is supposed to be only for win95... ?... and yanking the fonts out of xpsp2/2003sp1 probably isn't the easiest thing to do, for some of your less-technically-oriented fans... -do u have any personally-built font packs, or at least the scripts to do it, or maybe links, etc? Would be nice...

-COOL! it worked! -we don't have to make separate backups, and all previous backups are still useable! -during the RESTORE ("/r") function, just exclude ("/s") the problem dirs, then re-run doslfnbk /r with the sub-dirs specifically, one at a time, like thus: doslfnbk . /r /s Plus! /s x-setu~1 doslfnbk Plus! /r doslfnbk x-setu~1 /r -it works, no scandisk errors! all files properly renamed, byte-by-byte comparison is good... only thing is, ya need to find out the problem dirs first... they each do contain a LOT of files, so that's probably it, gotta split the restore function to less than x names in a sub-dir-tree at a time... the documentation does mention something like that...

(sry to continue off-topic here, I'll finish this quickly...) -WORKAROUND for DOSLFNBK bug: (VERY time-consuming, yet effective) 1) backup whole dir (my case: \Program Files) 2) copy & restore backup to empty temp partition (ex: swapfile partition) 3) scandisk, fix crosslinks/etc... 4) -find the offending sub-dirs (\Plus! & \X-setu~1) by looking at SCANDISK.LOG, and create a new backup EXCLUDING those sub-dirs, then back them up separately. 5) test the new backup by restoring to temp, scandisk (should be no errors this time), and byte-by-byte comparison to orig. -nasty, but it works... and is the only way to get uncorrupted backup... (unless someone out there knows of FREE backup/zip tools which PRESERVE 8.3/LFN's in win98se? -or maybe not free, but CHEAP? (<$20?) ) >;]

! CRAP! the "/h" DOES MISS FILES! -in my case, it missed about 800 files, which is roughly 1 out of every 10! ... so back to square one: NO DOSLFNBK RELIABILITY! ... ...-so, again, anybody know of a RELIABLE, FREE, replacement for DOSLFNBK? (or of a FREE backup or zip util, which preserves the 8.3/LFN's in win98se?) (actually, at this point, I'd be willing to PAY (a little) for something that works!)

-uh oh... "/h" saved 800 FEWER lfn's than without "/h", in same dir! (with /h: 8200 lfn's saved; w/out /h: 9000 lfn's saved!) -this CAN'T be good... (unless the bug in the non"/h" function also causes too many lfn's to be saved... ?) siiiigh... the saga continues... testing testing & more testing to come.....

***-doslfnbk "/h" note: *locksup* system BAD when too many files (couldn't do entire C: drive; had to do /windows & /progra~1 separately...)

-WOO-HOO! fixed it! -if ya use "/h" (high-level disk access) during the doslfnbk BACKUP phase, the restore phase won't create filesystem errors! scandisk was clean! I'll test it further, but for now I'm happy!... >;] (ps: this doesn't help for ALREADY-CREATED backups, tho... those are lost. )

- RAM: -I also use memtest86... ran it for long time, no errors... - HDD: "SMART" shows 100% fitness, 100% performance, no probs... (and same error is reproducible on both drives, every time... and drives are < 1 yr old...) - overclocking: I don't (can't ) overclock this mobo/ram/cpu... - connections: checked/reseated all; same -too many files/dir tree: the 2 backed-up folders (windows, program files) are only half the size (number of files, each) as other backups I have, and doslfnbk never has a problem with the others... it's strange, it's always the same 2 files being cross-linked, but the files that they are crosslinked WITH changes every time... and they are in totally different directory trees, totally different file names... but it's 100% reproducible... and scandisk done just before doslfnbk is always totally clean... it's definitely doslfnbk bug, I'm just suprised I've never run across it in the past, I use it quite frequently, for some time now... I'll test it on another 98se puter today... ..and the 2 files in question aren't "special" in any noticeable way: filenames aren't very long, full path not very long, no weird characters, not large, etc... (one is an x-setup plugin, the other a windows theme file) -thx for your help/suggestions, petr & mdgx... (-btw, Ghost isn't free, is it?)

BIOS: -is updated to latest... (board is <3 yrs old...) faulty wiring/PSU: -the crosslink errors are too specific (during many repeated tries) for random power probs... (plus other even more demanding HD/filesystem operations do not cause errors; this is very specific) corrupted sys files: -tried it in several diff. OS setups, + realmode dos; same virus: -used 3 diff. scanners, no probs... (also, again seems a bit too specific for virus) ----MDGx: -are u aware of any other progs/utils that perform the same function as DOSLFNBK? -or any (free) backup tools which DON'T screw-up 8.3/LFN's in win98se? (ps: sry for my overly-enthusiastic posting; I've had a VERY bad week, and this crap isn't helping matters... )

??? WEIRD... -anybody ever have this problem w/scandisk? I sure haven't... -scanning 2nd HD (both HD's < 1 yr old, 120gb each, p4 system <2 yrs old, NEVER probs w/scandisk b4..., win98se + sesp2.01 + 98se2me on both, 512mb ram, etc...), scandisk finds CROSSLINKED files, when told to go ahead and copy the cluster to each file, scandisk LOCKS ("unresponding" in task manager; HD light flashing every second nonstop; "end task" kills it no prob) ??? ??? -haven't done anything funky w/2nd drive, it actually has a recent fresh win98se install on it, switching back & forth between it & 1st drive in BIOS-boot (swapping IDE boot-numbers), always have done that w/out probs, for long time now... ? -tried restoring a pre-sesp/pre-98se2me backup, and same thing happened... ??? I'm gonna try DOS-MODE scandisk, see what happens... ---UPDATE: -ok, dos-mode scandisk didn't lockup, but it kept finding more & more crosslinked files, one at a time, and taking a couple minutes to find em each... STRANGE... never had crosslinked files ever before! on ANY system of my own... screw it, used Ranish (244) to delete & reformat that partition (had 4 partitions on that drive, only the 1st part had any probs)... good thing I backup religiously?sp? (from one HD to the other, too)... sigh... wonder what the h*ll it was... ---!UPDATE2: ! OH MY GOD: I copied a backup to that newly formatted partition, ran scandisk again just in case, and GUESS WHAT! cross-linked files again (tho no scandisk-lockup this time)! -the backup wasn't even zipped, just a straight windows explorer copy folders, from one HD to the other! (and scandisked both HD's, all partitions, BEFORE doing the copy, no probs!) ! -that means, there's a problem with win98se's copy-folders! Again, I've never had this happen before, and I copy folders A LOT, for many years... the only system thing I've recently changed is mdgx's SCANFRAG.EXE (?)... I'll have to restore (again) that old pre-sesp/pre-98se2me backup, reformat that bad partition, and try copy-folders again, w/scandisk after.... SHEESH! twilight-zone crap here... (ps: full antivirus scans too, tho I never get infected; very careful/protected) ---UPDATE3: (full AV/spyware scans: negative) : aww, crap... I traced it down... It's DOSLFNBK... I use that with my backup folders, to preserve the classic 8.3/long filenames problem... scandisk done BEFORE doslfnbk had no errors; AFTER doslfnbk, cross-linked files problem... SIIIIGGGHHH... I never had this prob w/doslfnbk before, this is new.... but it occurs regardless of sesp/98se2me/scanfrag.exe installed, now... I can't believe this... that prog. was the only thing that enabled TRUELY RELIABLE 8.3/LFN's backups, in win98se... (all FREE backup progs still had the classic 8.3/LFN problem).. now I have NO reliable (free) backup method.... DESPAIR

-oops, never mind, looks like it IS my 2nd hard drive, not your SCANFRAG.EXE... sigh... (great, now what... lol) [! UH OH... -MDGx, your SCANFRAG.EXE locked up on me... ] >;]

-it would only be one more backup set, 13 files, <6mb (since the 2nd set would keep getting overwritten, as it does now, while preserving the orig set), plus it seems a bit more complicated your new way... and allows for more potential user error, as far as possibly overwriting the orig 98se backups. The only additional user interaction my way would be during uninstall of option 3, asking user if he wants to restore the orig (pre-98se2me w98se) set, or the most recent (probably redundant ME) set...

-MDGx: -ok, I was bored -here's a little batch file you can call to do the backing up for each individual file (and it'll save some typing in your backup batch file, too, since it does the work for ya). A sample filename: %windir%\EXPLORER.EXE: CALL (batch) %windir%\EXPLORER EXE (note the SPACE, not ".") (batch): IF NOT EXIST %1.%2 GOTO DONE set %ex=".98a" IF EXIST %1.98a SET %ex=".98b" copy/Y %1.%2 %1%ex% >nul :DONE -I've tested it, it works... (edit: actually, looking more at your batch file, looks like u might be able to move more to the mini-batch file, too... save more repetition... I'll re-post once I've tested it)

MDGx: -winoldap error: it's no biggie, 98se2me is the only prog that gives the winoldap error, and only when you changed the reboot code back to the way it was before (when it also errored). -must be something to do with executing that reboot command, within a batch(dos) prog... -Also, somehow, the error "goes away" after running it a couple times (strange), it coincided w/my action of copying that config.dos file into windir, but that was probably just coincidence... I haven't bothered to verify/research that, since the error goes away and it doesn't seem to cause any probs... If I get exceptionally bored, I'll research that reboot code/batch thingy, see what I can find out (I've always been extremely good at experimentation/figuring stuff out, when motivated... it's the only exercise my severely-rusting 159 iq gets these days >;]) -btw, I run scandisk at least once/wk, just to be safe, and it never finds probs (unless a bad shutdown, which is VERY rare nowadays, thx to YOU! ) -and yup, I do run old dos games and progs sometimes, no errors... and I keep my startup/background progs very clean/lean (hate background progs)... -device manager: -no probs/conflicts (as per SysInfo, as well), other than the USB, serial, etc. I've deliberately disabled (20 second boot-up gain, and extra IRQ's/resources), which haven't caused any probs in 2 yrs... -option #3: -ok, I'll get out of the habit of running it every time a new version comes out... -and I'll make sure to uninstall #3 first, every time I do run it (or, again if I get bored, maybe I'll add some additional protection/generational backup code to your #3, make sure it keeps the original 98se files safely backed-up... already got an idea, rite now: if it IS the first time it's run, give the backup a slightly diff name, like *.98a, and subsequent times, make it *.98b, to make sure at least the original 98se files are safe... that'll work... and use the .98a files during uninstall, too, to get the orig. files back)

--just my personal opinion here, but I really like the old (trippy) blue logo best... B)

-MDGx, about option #3 and customizing the windows explorer toolbar: -? when I use option 3, I can customize, but w/out #3, the "Customize" drop-menu-option (or right-click on toolbar) is missing... ?... is the ME-Explorer the only one which allows you to customize the toolbar? Or have I forgotton how to "unlock" that option? I've been searching, and no luck... (frustrated) (I can move things around, but can't get rid of buttons or add em, unless #3 is employed...) -oh, btw, that Winoldap page fault error is back (your Shell..exitwindows... again), and this time I had the Shell...2048 already in config.sys, and my autoexec/environment was not big (working with new clean w98se install now) (note: gape's sp reboot does not error; perhaps use his way?) -EDIT: WINOLDAP error: may be coincidence, but error went away after I copied config.dos (shell...2048) from my old install windir to new install windir (it didn't have any config.dos in there); -only problem is, I tried removing that file again, to see if the error would return, but it DIDN'T...!...?... now, I can't reproduce that error, just like with the old install, it just went away... ?... -maybe, does having config.dos in windir somehow get copied into the registry, so that if the file is removed, the reg still keeps the data, preventing the return of the error? I didn't do anything else to either install... weird... (again, I don't think the error caused any damage; puter still rebooted, just looked like your .bat file didn't wanna quit, for the reboot...) ps: -I can't get rid of option #3! I didn't know that, when trying out your new versions of 98se2me, we need to FIRST UNINSTALL OPTION #3, not just uninstall 98se2me itself, otherwise the backup files made during option 3 get OVERWRITTEN, preventing an option 3 uninstall! -now, I gotta go grab those dozen or so files manually, copy them over to *.w98, then uninstall #3 again, rite?