Mark-XP

@Dietmar, all the weights are initialised randomly, hence the output seem to be somewhat Gauss distributed with center around the average of the both inputs. Is this a deeper investigation of how a NN works (2 hidden layers x 2 nodes, recalculated (forwardfed) utilizing sigmoid function?

Yes @Dietmar, you're absolutely right! Did you know that today most new pharaceutical ingredients/agents for medicines are found by AI? The same for primes or chess: when the spaces of possibilities are sheer endless and the solutions very rare, the machine will beat humans. You probably know that Stephen Hawking warned about the situation when AI will begin to improve itself? A realy dystopian idea...

VERY nice job, @Dietmar! I'm honestly in awe of how you get deeply into the matter... stark! This last example is extremely useful in regards of how the A"I" is working: let the trainig run loop for only 10.000 times (not 100.000) and the output is absolutely astonishing (at least for me): 0 AND 0 = 0.002703633461159949 0 AND 1 = 0.028244357868107424 1 AND 0 = 0.02999418942102172 1 AND 1 = 0.9603305464776584 For (0 and 0) it is 10 times more secure about the result than for (1 and 0). I derive 2 things: First, it's learning capabilities are terrific, intimidating. And second: it hasn't understood the essence of the matter at all.

Yes @Dietmar, i agree to name it ,hanging' - and would like to adress it to the developer(s) as i posted above... (if you're ok with it). What's the Belgrad bibliothek? Can't find that with qwant. Edit: @Dietmar HA!! your Asrock z690 Extreme has an Intel i219-V on it - maybe you like to have a look in my topic which i created for it...

Hello @Dietmar, so you're obviously enjoying your hollidays, very nice ! Just a couple of remarks/questions: - What ,crash' do you mean? Jave running hot (infinite) after entering a new trainingElement? - What is "Neuroph Neural Network Bibliothek from Belgrad" - i can't find nothing. - I've got no resources problem at all with tiere on an Z77E machine with only 4 GB of RAM: it just uses 438 MB (-> pic.1) - However, i have problems to include the neuroph-docs in Eclipse-IDE: no Info in the popup when hovering the mouse over the NeuralNetwork class (-> pic 2) - i try to make an image recognition progi that can learn to seperate Men from women portraits. But that will take some time... have a nice day!

seems to work: String eingabe = ""; // Evtl. vorhandenes (trainiertes) NN laden: File f = new File("or_perceptron.nnet"); if (f.exists() && !f.isDirectory()) { System.out.println("Soll or_perceptron.nnet geladen werden: "); eingabe = scanner.nextLine().toLowerCase(); System.out.println(""); if (eingabe.equals("y") || eingabe.equals("j")) { System.out.println("or_perceptron.nnet laden... "); neuralNetwork = NeuralNetwork.createFromFile ("or_perceptron.nnet"); } } ... // while (true) { while (! eingabe.equals("save")) { } neuralNetwork.save ("or_perceptron.nnet");

Do i understand you well @Dietmar , you spoke with one AI about another? I find this so.. amazing SciFi, really extraordinary! And of course that is a bug in Neuroph, and we should imo report it, here. it could be done easyly by sending them the link with your java source (eg. this) and the link to my post above. Ok, that said, now i'll finally begin to study the documentations of Neuroph... Edit: Nice, on page 13 of "Getting Started with Neuroph 2.98.pdf" (inside neuroph 2.98 zip) are described the mehods save and createFromFile to save and load previously trained neuro-networks ...

Now this is interesting @Dietmar: i tried to ,teach' it to seperate odd from even: starting with '2' it estimates Hund and i inform him: that's correct. (Hund = even - if first answer is Katze we define Katze = even). After trainung with 3 additional valus (7, 55, 88 see picture) the Java runtime is running hot, but the prgram doesn't work anymore. That happens in both environments, XP and Win7 (with slightly different Java versions)! Are you able to reproduce?

@Dietmar oh yes, it runs nicely! (After having added the 3 neuroph-core lib's sleepwalking safely (in the night) i struggeld hours in eclipse to add the other 3 libs the next morning...something went very wrong) Ok, i roughly understand the concept of the sigmoid-Fkt. (as a threshold function to decide when a neuron should "fire") in a neuro-net, and it's well limited, but tbh. i havn't understood it's meaning for search for primes. Maybe you have a good example or link? Huundd and Mietzie seems too ,fuzzy' for me. I'd like to find an application of this in rather binary situations; like i wrote before: decide if a portrait shows a man or a women. (Like it's just done in medicin: AI decides if flesh-texture is cancer or good-natured).

@Dietmar, thank you very much again for sharing this truely interesting stuff here! I must say the Neroph framework is an impressive tool (especially in regard of the small size of the package!) but the results of "tiere" - tbh - isn't overwhelming either. I'm very curious for the libraries neuroph-imgrec... does it really mean "image recognition"? i have to read the docs... a system that could learn to seperate women (portraits) from men (portraits) would be sensational! For the moment unfortunately i have yet to struggle hard with the eclipe IDE, please look at this ridiculous behavior of the help window when i hover the mouse over the class Scanner, to get some info: it tells me black on black background :

The point is: they (MS, Google, meta and others) won't never rebuild uman's brain in total, only small parts, and with all the rest (with needs, fears etc.) they have nothing to do... hopefully we'll have (political) powers in the future, that will have an ethic-view on this development... Currently stuck to integrate javax.visrec.ml.data.DataSet, thank you @Dietmar with the idea to change to maven... i'll be back Edit: it's such a mess, i struggle to import the libs you mentioned: it stores visrec in a new folder javax but the error persists... Edit2: OK! Now i've learnd how to integrate visrec-api correctly

The problem resides in line 15 (also in latest eclipse/Java environment on Win7); NeuralNetwork<?> neuralNetwork = new MultiLayerPerceptron(TransferFunctionType.SIGMOID, 26, 20, 20, 3); @Dietmar, could you please check if your tier-project imports something like org/slf4j? Edit: as far as i can see, all the knowlege you teach the AI in a session/run is lost then, and in each session it has to be trained newly from the scratch?! Wouldn't it be nice to implement - as a next step - to store all the learned things in a db? Edit2: i've found latest SLF4J API Module (2.0.7).jar, imported it to tier-project but error persists... error is solved! Edit3: next error, line 19 (DataSet trainingSet = new DataSet(26, 3);) causes ClassNotFoundException: javax.visrec.ml.data.DataSet . Try to resolve this... @Dietmar did you have this issues too, or is Netbeans simply better prepared than Eclipse??

Hallo nochmal, @Dietmar, i was too curious: integration of neuroph-core seems ok, but first attempt to run your example ends with some errors, there's an unknown org/slf4j/LoggerFactory here... we'll see tomorrow, have to sleep now...

Hi @Dietmar, latest (youngest) portable Eclipse/JDK combo i found (until now) is Eclipse 4.7.2 / Jportable 8u131. I could indeed reanimate my Börsen-chart project (unfortunately yahoo doesn't provide any marketdata any more).... Now i download the neuroph package (many thanks!), but then first want try to integrate it in eclipse (which i'm a little bit familiar with - netbeans would be another new IDE to learn and struggle with... ). Very curious about to experience AI live on my pc... until later! Edit: and the whole AI is packed to only 10 MB? Wow!!!

Many thanks @Dietmar, i downloaded that package! Since i'm somwahar compulsive, i first have to try to reanimate my old project with eclipse and best portable. In Win7/64 i have a success both, Eclipse and Java (OpenJDK64) portable. It's nice to see Oracle's Java running caged within another process (see below). Now i have to see what's (versions) possible to run portable in XP/32, and later try out Netbeans - at the moment i'am not able to complie your Tierbeispiel.java above in eclipse/ant: imports from org.neuroph not resolved... until later!

Hallo @Dietmar, coincidently i'was struggeling hardly the last days to get running a Java Dev setup here on my XP/32 bit machine. 12 years ago i've done my last (private, nice) Java project, with eclipse 3.5 (Galileo) and JDK/JRE 6.18! Nowadays it seems hardly feasable to create a portable, 32 bit setup of eclipse/Java, a true nightmare... Currently i'm stuck with combi Eclipse 4.9 x32 [Portable] and OpenJDK Temurin Portable 32-bit - unfortunately the latter seems to not work on XP-32... Now, latest netbeans portable that i find is version 8.0... Did you get your Netbeans 16(32bit) from here? Hopefully i can finally manage to get a working Java-IDE here the next days and join and participate your interesting topic here, until now it sadly was more a monologue hope to be able to change that soon...

Hello @NT-Five (not to confuse with @NT Five ) and welcome to the Forum! The MSI H61M-P31 should be an ideal platform for any XP multimedia etc system... - eventually an NVMe seems slightly exagarated, at least for me standard SSD are suffucent in speed in any situation. - You can find different SATA/AHCI drivers here and find out which one fits best for your situation. the Patch Integrator 3.4.0 is applicable for any personal XP-inst.Iso: you either may rename your iso to "Windows XP Professional SP3 x86 - Integral Edition 2022.9.9 (Vanilla).iso" temoraryly and substitute the one inside or you manage to extract the drivers and include them to your .iso with nlite. Best wishes for your project!

Now i thought a little about the situation and remembered, that the i219-V is working well on the Win-7 (64) partition of the system disk. Having learned a little bit about the .sys drivers i took a look at the Win7-Version and that made me somewhat pessimistic: since in Win7 e1d62x64.sys the are 5 occurancies of B5 15 (id of 1219-V). in ,our' Version we've got only three. (In the 32-bit e1d6232.sys i counted even 6). So i conclude that there is done a bit more (in the Win7 driver) to get it working. Hence i'm less otimistic about the feasibility of this ,project' and beg you, Sir @Mov AX, 0xDEAD, not to waste too much time and efforts with it! Nevertheless, here is the Win7 (32) versions of the driver (for a swift view): e1d6232_Win7.sys

Thanks @Mov AX, 0xDEAD! And for sure, here it is: e1d5132.219.sys

Many Thanks @Mov AX, 0xDEAD: meanwhile i tested the 15B8 [(2) 219-V] patched e1d5132 but it ended with error code 10 again. Now i'll analyse your (disassembled?) code and read the linux approach you mentioned above. At a first glance: we do not know if the 15A1 (i218) driver of b_w really ever worked! (if anybode here has a mb with a 218-V...) But i'll try to implement and test your idea later! Edit: i inserted 2909 (155A -> 15B8), reverted 2910 to as it was (1559), reverted 21370 (to original 1559) but did 2137C (15A1 -> 15B8). The result unfortunately remains the same: Code 10. Now @Mov AX, 0xDEAD, what means 28362 then (may i kindestly ask )? Since we let the two changes regarding id 15 59 unchanged, maybe the manipulation here is wrong or unnecessary too?

Since filesize doesn't change, i tried to calculate the the checksum change manually: 3 * (A1 - 59) + (A1 - 5A) = 11F is exactly the difference of the both checksums at 0x138 (3E C5 - 3D A6) . Very nice @j7n, it even seems i do not have to utilize PE tools... And: Sorry Master @Mov AX, 0xDEAD, i hadn't yet reached the level neccessary to understand your wise reply above...

Thanks a LOT @j7n , and welcome to the topic! So in the modded e1d5132.sys (for the i218-V) we have the four differences: 2910: 3D 59 15 -> 3D A1 15 21370: F9 59 15 -> F9 A1 15 2137C: F9 5A 15 -> F9 A1 15 28362: F9 59 15 -> F9 A1 15 What's so interesting: 15 59 was the primary identifier of the i218-V, and 15 5A primary identifier of the i218-LM in the driver offered once by intel in a ProEmbSW12 Embedded-driver-package (which was later removed as stated earlier here, point 7). These 4 identifiers were apparently changed to 15 A1 - the identifier of the i218-V (v2) according to the e1d5132.inf! Now, in fact of knowing nothing about the .sys driver, i could change the e1d5132.inf (from 15A1 / i218-V (v2) -> 15B8 / i219-V (v2) ) replace the Bytes A1 15 to B8 15 in the 4 locations of e1d5132.sys (i218 id -> i219 id) recalculate it's checksum, update it and try my luck... But prior i have to get the tools and do some preparations... (this type of hacking is rather new for me)

Many thaks for your reply, Sir @Mov AX, 0xDEAD! But did you mean: e1d5132.inf has more differences (as the .sys does not contain any "218")? e1d5132.sys is program-code, what is it's source? the e1d5132.inf ? And the checksum (stored in e1d5132.sys) is of the .inf ? How is it calculated? Sorry for the many questions, (after decades of SW-developing) I'm absolut newbie to this specific topic and it's hard to find comprehensive descriptions in the www...

Yes, thats's exactly why i think the GM108 based MX130 should run (after extension of .inf)... and btw: no risk no fun

Hello! Many of the newer motherboards come (ore came) with an Intel I219-V GbE LAN on it (alt least until they were replaced with the newest 2,5+ GbE chips). Having had achieved a nice XP installation on my "new" GA-Z170-D3H and a Win7 install beside - with the properly working "(2) i219-V" LAN device there - i started searching the web for infos related to the I219 and XP. First stumbled across this site - point 7 - where Embedded-drivers for the i217-V were listed. [The link (on upload.ee) has expired however, i've got this pack and could upload it here... but not necessary, see below] Togeher with a promising hint: "If exactly your network card is not in the driver (e1d5132.inf) explicitly, it must be added by replacing the DEV_ID of the neighboring, close in name. " Quite optimistic with that, i isolated the Pro1000 driver files and modded it for my '(2) i219-V' / 8086_15B8 (same identifier as in Win7), started the driver-installation, it kind-of-worked, but it ended up with an error: > PCI bus 0, Device 31, Function 6: Code 10 - The device can't be started. Astonishingly enough: Some users have seen exactly this error with the i219-V in Windows 10 too! (https://www.google.de/search?q=i219-V+Windows+code+10) Now, let's take a look at the situation in Windows7 where the i219-V works nicely on the same board: The i217, i218 and i219 Win7-drivers can be easily found on the web (eg. here ). I found out, that in the relevant e1d6232.inf all the devices I217-V, I218-V and the I219-V are treated absolutely identically. And they all share the same 'Registry Settings' section well. So i searched further and found another page (https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=46865&start=20), where user b_w (hello b_w, are you here too??) offers a *modded* driver - for the "Intel Ethernet Connection (2) I218-V". Examinating the e1d5132.inf there, i found it modded (for his 15A1 / (2) i218-V ) the same way as i did it for my 15B8 / (2) i219-V described above. But halt! In the driver folder of that driver.7z there is a modded e1d5132.sys too! The difference - compared to the original e1d5132$.sys - are 2 bytes, at position 0x138 and 0x139. But also with this new, modded e1d5132.sys the driver installation ends with the same error 10. So the .sys driver seems to correspond with the devices in the .inf driverfile?! At this point i had to make a break, for the first... and decided to start this topic. Please note: 1) This Intel i219-V LAN can be found on quasi every second mainboard (or even more) - getting it working in XP would imo mean e big leap for their XP-usability. 2) 1) implies, that newer Mini-ITX HW (with an i219) could be considerbale for an XP-build as in this case no extra PCI-LAN is necessary, Additional links: - The i219-V Product specificaten page i219 product brief: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getcontent/333229 i219 datasheet: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getcontent/612523 - The i218-V Product specificaten page Datasheet and Product-brief for the i218