NoelC

Yes, overtly that seems a fair statement. But there are subtleties that result in my saying "it's better to keep current for intangible reasons", especially once it's tweaked and trained to your liking. People often look for neon signs, concert sound, and being beaten over the head, when there are really subtle whispers on the gentle breeze that can speak volumes. More often such folks are my fellow Americans. Dhjohns, I'll look into that program if I get a few minutes to play. I wonder whether there is some taming that could have been done to make Civil 3D 2013 run on Windows 8.1. I've been able to make an awful lot of things work that some folks say are incompatible. For example, I have every version of Photoshop running on Win 8.1 back to Photoshop 6.0 (the one from the last millennium). -Noel

I had installed Win 10 Enterprise x64 TP the day it first came out, installed all my apps, tweaked it up, and had a nicely running system. But it never would pass an SFC check. Nor would DISM fix it via the traditional means. Updates to the latest builds as they came out made no difference in this issue, though otherwise the system performed nominally. It was stable. More recently - a few days after the installation of build 9879 - it started demanding activation, even though it had already been activated with the product code provided by Microsoft. Every few hours it would pop up a full-screen message requesting I visit the PC Settings App and activate. No reactivation nor reentry of the product code would succeed. Because of Microsoft's ridiculous dumbing-down, the message is "Windows can't activate right now" and gives no idea why. What's in the Event Log is no better. So I just tossed that VM and installed a brand spanking new system using the Win 10 (non-Enterprise) ISO image for build 9879. Sure enough, the servicing database is corrupted right out of the box. https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/getfile/578528 That's just shoddy work. -Noel

Spin it any way you want. That's fine. Frankly I'm glad I don't have quite such a negative outlook on everything as you do. You should strive for balance. Everything requires some risk. Fear of risk is healthy, but not when it's the only guiding principle. Someone with a helluva lot of experience has said here that he didn't find Windows 8 worth upgrading to, but 8.1 barely so, then confirmed the decision was the right one based on experience. Take that for what it's worth. Your mileage may vary. Needs certainly do. I plan to evaluate Win 10 and determine if it's suitable for adoption to be the system upon which I base everyday usage. If I find it to be worthwhile, I will. Otherwise I won't. Simple as that. I can run it any time I want in a VM. But I'm not going to ignore it. That's a sure path to ignorance. -Noel

I just got a mental image that they have a key they press when the boss approaches that pops up But then to do their normal work (surfing, catching up on news, etc.), they hit escape and return to Perhaps this is why a virtualization solution is now included in Win 8 out of the box. -Noel

It's not really different. Probably there have been more times when Win 8 has been screwed up by updates than Win 7 to be honest. But that won't keep; the balance will shift as time goes on. You could have a good older host system setup - say based on Win 7 - and run VMs for all the target systems you need - including those NEWER than the host system. That's actually what I did before adopting Win 8.1 while WIn 8 was current. It's a little more complicated, but not anything that can't be worked out. But it gets more complicated as time goes on and ultimately becomes impractical. Just think about extremes - few folks would think running NT4 right now is a good idea, for example. I wouldn't even consider XP. When I did the upgrade to Win 8.1 I did a detailed risk/benefit analysis based on what I do and need, and it showed that in general I'd save more time than I'd waste - and while there's always some risk of the unknown, it's turned out to be true: After getting it set up right I've spend little ongoing time/effort on Windows 8.1. I've been quite productive this year, actually. I did my own testing, and even some days-long "immersive" trial runs using a Windows 8.1 VM (VMware is great), so I knew what I was getting into. When I had everything working at an equal level to what I had in Win 7, I knew it was time to switch. A year has gone by and I'm glad I did. In the spirit of "lemons to lemonade", I packaged my knowledge in a book that also makes me a bit of money. There will be a Win 10 edition as well. Regarding other intangible reasons to stay current... It's hard to say right now what system the driver makers put more effort into supporting. Win 7, because it has more users, or Win 8.x because it's the latest? I think I sense more of the latter - e,g., for display drivers - but certainly not MUCH more either way. Of course, this ties in with a strategy of upgrading to newer hardware. And again, it's going to go more and more to the latter. Performance has been a mixed bag. You'd think it should be better, given all the hype, but mostly it's (a little) worse in Win 8.1, though a few things are a little better. You would think a newer system would be able to do things like take advantage of newer instructions (e.g., SSE2), but in a practical sense Microsoft seems to have either accidentally screwed up or intentionally hobbled a number of things - Explorer file operations for example. Delete ONE file and see a progress bar? On a modern system running from SSD? Their Marketing people still of course claim everything's faster and somehow get away with it. Stability... Well, what can I say. Windows 7 ran continuously for weeks between install-initiated reboots, and so does Windows 8. Zero glitches is now the expected norm for a well-managed system. I'm glad it has finally come to this. Improvements in utility have simply been stalled, because of this "side trip" Microsoft has made with their Apps. Someone forgot to inform the team that it actually has to be good for people to actually adopt it. So here we sit with the desktop, new versions of maybe a few desktop applications by development teams who keep plugging away while Microsoft figures things out, and despite Microsoft's attempts to make us dislike it, the desktop is really the only place to be. My decision to use Win 8.1 would be different if it hadn't been for a few good 3rd party applications that fill in the holes (Classic Shell, Aero Glass, etc.). And so we plod forward, treating Windows Updates as though they're more suspect than ever, and trying to find the good amongst the dark side... -Noel

I admit not to having felt I was breaking any rules (noting that I wasn't the starter of that thread), but clearly a rule's existence and the application of the rule are two different things, and they serve two different purposes, as is quite often seen in the adult world. Beyond my own sensibilites, I was also thinking of several other quite brilliant folks, one of whom I've literally seen stop contributing entirely on the Microsoft forums because of his frustration with their forum. Xper, if you or any mod wants to delete this thread as inappropriate, I'll understand completely - in fact I encourage it. It has stirred up unhealthy conversation. I'm sorry for running afoul of the rules police, and I now stand better educated on rule 8b, subpart 2. -Noel Edit: Fixed a grammatical error.

This seems like one of the more tangible cases of where the mostly intangible value of "keeping current" can be seen. I guess Microsoft isn't putting too much effort into testing updates any more for anything other than with Win 8 and probably on their tablets (touch first, after all!!). It's a shame. -Noel

Certainly a lot of folks share your sentiment. I know a majority are still sitting on Win 7 and playing "wait and see". I do find value in adopting current tech when it's mature - as Windows 8.1 now is. Windows 8 became mature about a year ago and was worth using (I did a big return on investment analysis before adopting it). I'm proud to say I've not run a single Metro App on Win 8.1. Never needed one. Since putting 8.1 on my workstation I am probably not really a whole lot MORE productive than I was with Win 7, but I'm certainly not less, and I'm current. It's important for my software development to embrace current systems. Win 7 was perfectly stable, so is Win 8.1, and I imagine Win 10 will be too, at least after the initial kinks are ironed-out. I may wait until Service Pack 1 to replace my desktop system, after doing a deep analysis as I have for all past version releases. But this thread is about using Windows 10's desktop, because no matter what Microsoft wants us to believe, the desktop is far from dead. If they know what's good for them they'll return a lot of functionality they deleted (I was going to write "prematurely deleted", but I've seen no evidence that there's anything better than the desktop on the horizon). So... EVEN IF it's just Windows 8.2 by another name, do you see yourself ultimately adopting it, knowing that there will be good 3rd party augments such as Big Muscle's Aero Glass? -Noel P.S., Regarding the value of "keeping current"... It's almost intangible but, for example I have heard the latest Windows Updates broke things badly for users of Windows 7, while Windows 8 users were unscathed.

Out of curiosity, what is the problem being highlighted - that the buttons are not equidistant from the edges? Doesn't that have more to do with the design of the application itself? Or am I missing something painfully obvious - as I often do? Edit: Never mind, I see the discontinuity now in the dark outline, after looking closely. -Noel

It's a forum. Everything should always be open for comment, as long as it's positive. Xper has adeptly turned something I mistakenly perceived as a negative into a positive here. -Noel

I dunno, I kind of like the bigger drop shadows. Microsoft has a habit of rolling out visual changes gradually, as though to "wean" users from what they had before, and making the last jump at release time. We can't know where they're going yet. I just hope they don't screw things up so badly that we can't compensate for them. -Noel

Here we are in the Aero Glass forum because we're not particularly happy with Microsoft's idea of what our desktops ought to look like, right? From what we've seen of the Win 10 UI so far, we know that several fundamental changes are afoot regarding look and feel. With the exception of my preferred reduced chrome size metrics, this is what the stock Windows 10 theme looks like out of the box: Now with Win 10: 1. Borders, except at the tops of windows, are being eliminated (well, really minimized to 1 pixel). I personally can't stand this - if for no other reason than the places you're expected to use the mouse to control window sizing are now invisible. That being said, I have always liked thin borders - just not this thin. 2. There are now big drop shadows (perhaps the single biggest thing Microsoft has done to improve the desktop over Win 8). 3. Other than the drop shadows, Win 10 seems to want - so far - to continue to embrace the flat, lifeless appearance to the common controls that Windows 8 started. Maybe they'll change it, maybe not. The differences between controls, etc., are being made even more subtle. There's a reduction of lines of pixels between parts of windows. I guess you could call it minimalist or oversimplified. Microsoft might call it "clean". In some ways it's not unlike being a bit snowblind. But I digress... 4. With Win 8 Microsoft left behind rounded corners, which I find further help with visually differentiating windows. I personally like (minimally) rounded corners and won't give them up. I've been using WIndows 8.1 since it came out, and because of its shortcomings I developed a theme atlas that I feel improves what you could call the "lack of character" that characterized the Windows 8 desktop. It was just too plain, and completely lacking those drop shadows. After taking the time to understand the mechanisms used to composite the theme atlas resources, I created a custom theme atlas that corrects many of the shortcomings (most specifically, the lack of Windows 8 drop shadows). For me this theme atlas has stood the test of time: Win 8.1: Given my fondness for the above, and the new challenges of Win 10, I've been trying to create a theme atlas that I will feel comfortable with when moving up to Windows 10 for daily use. In order to feel that comfort I will need to keep several attributes of the look and feel I had with the prior versions of Windows, while I'd also like to embrace a bit of the change. Some design goals: Minimal change to make the desktop more pleasant to use. Reduced metrics similar to what I'm already used to.Some change to embrace Windows' new design concepts.A pleasant, integrated appearance to help visually differentiate window chrome from client areas.No need to support multiple colors (in my case) because I like blue.Avoidance of full theme replacement to maximize reliability. Here's what I've come up with so far. Unfortunately, it's not as flexible for other folks to use as the theme atlas I did for Win 8.1 before, since I've had to reconstitute faux borders in the drop shadow resources, and my preferred color is in there. It works with one particular set of colors and transparencies - those I find most to my liking. There are a couple of additional problems with this approach - which does not change the theme: The borders are actually partially transparent, not translucent. Big Muscle's Aero Glass is only working on the title bars. At the small border size this isn't a practical problem, but they don't look quite as well-integrated as those that are truly translucent, such as in my Win 8.1 example above. Also, because of the way Microsoft processes the drop shadow border resources the edges aren't as pixel-sharp looking as they ought to be. But I find them acceptable. What do you think? -Noel

That's certainly reasonable. I'm glad it wasn't because of perceived content issues, it really was a good discussion. You've made me feel a bit better. Under those conditions I might have explained the reason and opened a successor thread as a courtesy. But you're right, people are free to open new threads in the sub-forum - giving it a whole project subforum was probably a move long overdue. Thanks for your explanation. -Noel

The forum administrator (xper) has chosen to lock possibly one of the most popular threads (318,716 views) I've seen on this forum. That came as a bit of a surprise to me. Through the past couple of years we've seen tempers flare a few times on that subject. It always cools down and people resume talking tech. You are, of course, free to run your forum the way you see fit, but... I have contributed a few things for folks to read here. That said, the Aero Glass product was what drew me here in the first place - and that thread was largely responsible for bringing me back. Without it... I may be more likely to find other things to do. I realize the participation of any given individual means little, but just keep in mind that there are always other web destinations for folks to choose from. You have a good core of contributors here. It'd be a shame to see them go elsewhere. Happy holidays to all. -Noel

It's times like these you have to ask... What advantage is it to Microsoft to keep Windows 7 going? For what it's worth, in the spirit of the thread... I used my Win 8.1 system pretty hard doing software development and testing today, without the slightest problem. -Noel

It's a fair question. I don't see the transparency myself. Before I did not know you were speaking of Windows 10. Sorry about sounding a bit short. -Noel

They skipped 9, and 10 is in early previews. If you're not an incurably curious early adopter like some of the rest of us you can just ignore it for now. Most of the 3rd party tools to make Windows 8.1 better also make Windows 10 better. -Noel

That's possible. I probably don't have any transparency dialed-in for that. Speaking of which... Weren't you going to make inactive window coloration (other than the transparency) subject to a setting in the registry? I've never been able to make any difference in the inactive frame color; I'd like to make it darker. I'm supposed to be using the ColorizationColorInactive registry value for that, right? -Noel

Presumably for the build shown on the screen. The current one doesn't seem to do the proper accent to make it translucent. Figures, Microsoft is moving further and further from Aero Glass, despite most of their toes already being strewn around the room... -Noel

Wow, either we have a heck of a language barrier here or someone never learned any manners. Anant, do the necessary reading to understand how to get a partially transparent start menu yourself. Hint: Start by researching which of the various start menu replacement tools offer options to use the glass attribute. -Noel

Yeah, basically. This is behavior that can be set directly through the UI, via the "Ease of Access Center", but there's no way to get exactly the values I coded (which match my best-ever-made LK250 keyboard). The values don't respond to the normal control panel settings; apparently this functionality is added to do things for people who are pushing keys with things like forehead sticks. But it's capable of throttling the key rate back, so it's useful for the moment. I imagine the next major drop of Win 10 will have it fixed, and (just guessing here) a brand spanking new Metro control panel that will let you configure almost as many things as you can configure today with the Win32 control panel app. -Noel

By the way, for what it's worth the (beta version) Aero Glass GUI tool made by Big Muscle (and downloadable from his site) can effect a change without restarting DWM. I know that's not a direct solution for you but it shows that it's possible. -Noel

I'm thinking a background glow that's a middle gray and maybe a bit more opaque might do the job and make it work for both colors of title text. I don't have a lot of time right now, but at some point I'll look into making a unified version. Ribbon-enabled windows (Wordpad, Explorer, etc.) continue to be a problem. It would be nice if somehow a patch could be made to get them all to use a title glow that's unified with the other windows. Alas, Microsoft doesn't seem to be moving in the direction of more desktop unification, though. -Noel

All updates (including the optional bugfix rollup) went in and my VM passed initial testing. I'm going for the whole enchilada on my workstation now. Rebooting... Edit: It came back up okay with the updates installed, and the system passes initial tests. My benchmark applications actually show a few minor improvements in performance, which is interesting because the general trend after updates has been in the other direction. Aero Glass is unaffected by the December updates. It continues to work just fine. At this point I have nothing bad to say about the latest updates. Of course, as time goes on we'll know more about long-term stability, but they're actually working fine so far. -Noel

As you've probably noticed, Win 10 build 9879's keyboard repeat rate seems jammed at the fastest settings, and doesn't respond to the control panel. I've developed registry settings that employ the "Filter Keys" feature in the Ease of Access center to slow things down. With this registry file the start of auto-repeat is slowed to 440 milliseconds, and the keys repeat at a more reasonable rate of something around 30 per second. http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/Win10/Win10FastKeyboardRepeatFix.reg Here's what's inside the above: Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Accessibility\Keyboard Response]"Last Valid Wait"=dword:00000000"Last Valid Delay"=dword:000003e8"Last Valid Repeat"=dword:000001f4"Last BounceKey Setting"=dword:00000000"Flags"="59""DelayBeforeAcceptance"="0""AutoRepeatRate"="20""AutoRepeatDelay"="440""BounceTime"="0" The following registry file disables "Filter Keys" and returns Windows to the default settings. If you employ the above, after the next build drop I suggest running the following and see if Microsoft has fixed the problem (they've acknowledged it and said it will be fixed in a future build). http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/Win10/Win10KeyboardRepeatReturnToDefault.reg The above contains: Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Accessibility\Keyboard Response]"Last Valid Wait"=dword:00000000"Last Valid Delay"=dword:000003e8"Last Valid Repeat"=dword:000001f4"Last BounceKey Setting"=dword:00000000"Flags"="58""DelayBeforeAcceptance"="0""AutoRepeatRate"="500""AutoRepeatDelay"="1000""BounceTime"="0" If you're at all skeptical about running .reg files from other folks (as you should be), I encourage you to download them and look inside before running them. -Noel