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To get WinServer2003 or not to get - SOLVED


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I must say, the discussion is bringing out a lot of interesting points. What especially jumps out is the difference in scale between my IT perspective and dear Crahak's. Crahak has provided an excellent description of what a full fledged IT solution would look like in a more IT driven company. In our case though, it's not really the direction we'll be taking.

And then maybe the costs of an [extra?] IT guy to take care of it
:hello: I am the company's IT guy. Maybe a bit new at it, but there's a start for everyone. ;)

In response to

allrightie, i read the initial post a few times just to be sure i had everything.
And
again, no one can reliably guess how much load they'd put on servers based on so little infos - at least if we knew the type of business or something...
, please take a close look not only at my first, but also at my second post, as it will answer a lot of your questions.

Just to sum up my 2nd post, I had described:

  • The network diagram. Also, the version control system will handle concurrent file access. I'm already looking into tortoiseCVS.
  • Domain apps that require 32-bit windows.
  • Mail and web server ... not just yet. Remove exchange, IIS and SQL Server from scenario.

Gathering things from what crahak, fizban2 and fdv said, here is a nice study: :thumbup

2 scenarios:

Scenario 1: Complete IT setup

  1. Purpose: Mail, Web, file and application servicing.
  2. Hardware:
    • 2 servers w/ specs from crahak (1 x 1800$ -- we already have 1)
    • UPS: Uninterruptible Power Supply (700$)
    • Backup tape drives + 5 Tapes (500$ + 5 x 60$ = 800$)

[*]Software:

  • 2 x Windows Server 2003 SE w/ 10 CALs + 5 CALs (2 x (1200$+200$) = 2800$).
  • 2 x Expensive tape drive software (2 x 2000$ = 4000$)

[*]IT training: Books, time, personnel => $$$

Total: 10,100$ + $$$

Yowsers! :crazy:

Taking in fdv's idea of a red hat box on computer 2, we get

10,100$ - Server machine, OS & license costs (1800$ + 1400$)

=> 6,900$. Still ...

Scenario 2: Basic IT setup

  1. Purpose: File and application servicing.
  2. Hardware:
    • Intel Pentium 4 3.00 GHz, 1GB RAM, 235GB HD space (0$ -- in our possession)
    • UPS (700$)

[*]Software:

  • Windows SBS 2003 w/ 5 CAls + 10 CALs (700$ + 800$ = 1500$) OR MORE LIKELY Windows Server 2003 SE w/ 10 CALs + 5 CALs (1400$)
  • BrightStor Backup Software (0$ -- in our possession)

[*]IT training: Books, time, personnel => $$$

Total: 2200$ + $$$ :yes:

In the future, I'd probably add another machine as web and mail servicer running on an Open Source platform.

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The network diagram. Also, the version control system will handle concurrent file access. I'm already looking into tortoiseCVS.
That's a versionning system alright. But I doubt that's what you really want. CVS is primarily intended for text files (source code) - not binary files. It could be somewhat problematic in a few ways. And CVS is a old-ish system (why not use SVN instead at least?). The other issue is although TortoiseCVS is a lot more user friendly than having to type CVS commands, I'm not sure it's going to be really good or user-friendly enough for the end-user... They just might not understand or use it. And TortoiseCVS is a CVS client - you'll still need the backend. You'll need to learn CVS yourself pretty well if you pick that (or even to evaluate it) and its shortcomings (can't rename files, etc).
Domain apps that require 32-bit windows.

I still fail to see the relevance of this. Is there even a server i.e. "back-end" part to this app? Sounds like a plain desktop app to me (that has NOTHING to do with your server scenario). But then again, I've never seen the app itself...

Seemingly option #1 is too expensive (which was my point)... Understood.

Scenario #2 may be the other extreme though. That machine should be able to do a whole lot more than just serve some files to a handful of people... (i.e. if their needs are "modest").

As for adding another box running on an open source platform, it's an option, but don't necessarily think it's always the cheapest/first option to pick. Look at the alternatives and *total* cost - and needs/resources...

RHEL is about the same Win2003 Web Server ed (runs IIS6 and could run SQL Server 2005 Express Ed too - or some other DB of your choice and whatever), i.e. 350$ for RHEL ES w/ basic support vs 400$ for Win2003 Web Svr Ed (50$ is hardly a deciding factor for 2 systems with such fundamental differences really). Mind you there are more options here too (FreeBSD, Solaris, CentOS, SUSE, ...)

What it seems to come down to is what do you want from the server?

Run ASP.Net apps on IIS6 (C# or VB.Net, .NET Framework, dev using Visual Studio, and everything centric/related to that setup), or do you want to serve simple PHP pages and likely use some of the open source PHP-based apps (like perhaps a CMS?) on a fairly typical "LAMP" stack?

What are you (and the people that'll use the server - i.e. write apps/pages for it and maintain them) more comfortable with? (if you have no *nix knowledge, administering a freebsd web server box or such without even X running could be a "whole lotta fun"). Lots of people just aren't willing to go thru all this really (or they're a "MS-only shop" and intend it to stay that way). That's totally up to you. No one can force you to learn nor will do it for you or whatever.

I'd say both are good, viable options, but they address vastly different needs. Some even opt for a "mix" of the previous 2 solutions i.e. WAMP or apache w/ mod_mono on linux. Both are so different that price here is almost an afterthought really. Some places will pick IIS6 on Win2003, another will pick LAMP (be it PHP, Python or Perl) on FreeBSD, while another may pick JBoss on RHEL or Websphere on SUSE, ...

Mail wise, if they don't need outlook calendaring and the like, there are tons of other options (hMailServer being one - and free).

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Crahak, I liked your insight on TortoiseCVS. Lots of good points you made. Having already toyed with it a bit, I can say:

- I loved the GUI. Clean and simple to understand.

- It takes practice to predict the dynamics between the repository and the client directory (tested on localhost).

And CVS is a old-ish system (why not use SVN instead at least?).
Thanks, ;) I'll definitely look into subversion (already started doing so). If I have time, I'll post my findings on a new thread (in relevance with what it can bring to a client-server network).
I still fail to see the relevance of this [Domain apps that require 32-bit windows]. Is there even a server i.e. "back-end" part to this app? Sounds like a plain desktop app to me (that has NOTHING to do with your server scenario). But then again, I've never seen the app itself...
I was gonna explain why this domain app is relevant, but for simplicity I thought we should just leave it at: Server OS needs to be able to run 32-bit apps. B)

Ok, back to a higher level.

I don't need:

- IIS 6.0.

- SQL Server 2005.

- Any type of mail services (Exchange).

- SUS

- MIIS

- Clustering

- Migration tools

- ISA

Let's make sure to keep these items out of this topic.

I need:

- File sharing (>10 users).

- Remote file access (VPN or SharePoint?)

- Running a 32-bit application (constraint).

- Backup system.

- Security (Firewall, Antivirus, AntiMalware)

- Ability to monitor network activity.

- Ability to create users for a domain rather than for a machine.

- Access rights for users on a network.

I think I'm gonna go for a Windows Server (2000 or 2003) OS, as I've been running into app support issues with SBS 2003, mainly Backup and Antivirus.

:hello: Can anyone comment on the last two items of the needs list?

Edited by 1howmanyunamesaretaken?
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- Ability to create users for a domain rather than for a machine.

- Access rights for users on a network.

any server software should be able to do this with ease, Server 2003 would be ideal since 2000 is 6 year old now, 2003 is very good and been well tested over the couple years. Any server OS will run your 32 bit software if it doesn't then it can't be that good of an OS software. just a note for on something i saw on your list, for remote access of files, VPN would be the ideal solution but the built VPN with windows is not so good and depending on your line speed and setup (single server as a DC should NEVER be a vpn server also) you maybe limited to what you can do. Sharepoint requires IIS 6.0 and at least a windows MSDE (SQL engine) to run.

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Sharepoint requires IIS 6.0 and at least a windows MSDE (SQL engine) to run.
I sure hope that the Sharepoint services that come with SBS 2003 will be fully functional and will not require any tools not built into SBS.
(single server as a DC should NEVER be a vpn server also)
Any more on this? Because this is what I was intending to do. Or very close to that, only replace VPN by SharePoint services.
I think I'm gonna go for a Windows Server (2000 or 2003) OS, as I've been running into app support issues with SBS 2003, mainly Backup and Antivirus.
By the way, these issues have been resolved. I learned that, generally, if a software runs on Windows Server 2003, it is compatible with SBS 2003. Edited by 1howmanyunamesaretaken?
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SBS2003 will have everything you need for Sharepoint Services to run, even a nice wizard to help you set it up:)

as for the VPN, what do you mean replace the VPN with sharepoint services, VPN is for connecting remote clients were as sharepoint services is more of a intranet collaboration tool

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as for the VPN, what do you mean replace the VPN with sharepoint services, VPN is for connecting remote clients were as sharepoint services is more of a intranet collaboration tool.
The impression I got from reading on Sharepoint on the internet was that it could do like VPN, that it could allow for remote connection to a network through PPTP or L2TP. I don't know where I got that from. I was happy to think that because I was having issues with VPN. Guess I'll have to revert to solving those. :wacko: Edited by 1howmanyunamesaretaken?
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  • 2 months later...

Well, my project is now over at the company I was working at. I know, it's been a long time I last gave feedback. Here I am catching up with you all. Without further suspence, below are the results of the project.

The network follows the client-server architecture and is protected by a network router hardware firewall with more strict than lenient rules. The server machine is a powerful desktop PC which runs SBS 2003. It is by no means a piece of server hardware, but it runs the 10 person shop quite smoothly. It is also protected by a 200$ UPS system that's about the size of 1 & a half PC towers.

The anti-virus solution will not be a client-server one. Rather, the workstations are to be protected by a client-side Anti-Virus. The one that was last decided upon was F-Prot. It's the cheapest and most lightweight commercial AV I found on the net and might already be set up.

The file access rights are configured under Active Directory, an object relation scheme integrated in Windows Server OS's. Half the client PCs are running win XP Pro, logging onto the domain, and half are under win XP Home, simply connecting to the file server by means of mapped network drives. For win XP Home users, when a server folder is accessed via a mapped network drive, an authentication window appears where the employee must enter his/her domain username and password. The only problem here is that this session and its respective authentication remain open until the computer is turned off. So, logging off the user will not close the session. The machines running XP Home are also denied having domain policies affect users since a user logs onto his/her machine rather than onto the domain. Therefore, the win XP Home machines are intended to be replaced by XP Pro machines as soon as possible.

As for the internally developped software modules and applications, they are for the moment comfortably compatible with Windows SBS 2003.

For backup solutions, Brightstor Arcserve for laptops and Desktops is highly compatible with the domain framework provided by Active directory. SBS 2003 has eased the integration of BrighStor in our backup operations. This BrightStor solution will only be used to back up the user's data on the machine he/she logged onto at least once before. Since a domain user can log onto any machine, the possible number of user/machine file sets to be stored is quite high. Thankfully, as I said a bit earlier, the domain aspect is well incorporated into the BrightStor solution.

When it comes to backing up the server files, a simple daily copy of the server files onto an external hard drive will prove solid, with the HDDs swapped once a week (2 HDDs will share the server file backup task). Not only that, but since the company data amounts to 8GBs, with 120GB hard drives a 2 weeks of data can be stored. Another solution would be to use incremental backups using BrightStor or an equivalent of the SBS2003-incompatible Norton Ghost 9.0. The problem with BrightStor though is that it depends on a backup server. If the backup server's OS fails, a fear exists that the backed up files would be irrecuperable, since machine identifiers (i.e. domainName/machineName:domainUser) would no longer exist on the server.

The file server itself is quite reliable since it is set up using a RAID 1 controller to mirror the server files onto 2 HDDs.

Lastly, network monitoring tools such as TCPview & netstat have been learned. Hijackthis is a tool that people praise much, but I have not yet had a chance to increase my knowledge in that.

And now, I would like to refer some thing to all of you:

Web Sites:

=======

Sysinternals.com (Awesome modules of all categories, for windows platforms)

Wikipedia.com

google.com (All the information is there, you just have to harness it)

MSFN.org ;)

technet.microsoft.com

forums.spywareinfo.com (Check out the introduction pages, they have great procedures there)

aumha.net/viewforum.php?f=30 (For HijackThis)

searchexchange.techtarget.com (questions appear depending on the interests you choose)

www.tek-tips.com (Good for help on specific products)

www.no-ip.com (These guys give a free dynamic IP address binding, to bind it to a static domain name)

www.domaintools.com (Full of IP web modules, like whois, dns tracking)

OldVersion.com (For past versions of popular apps)

Here is a pearl for whoever wants it: all my IT firefox bookmarks in .html file

Apps:

====

Norton Ghost 9.0 (boots off CD, not OS dependent for image restore, even restores .pqi files).

Mozilla Firefox 1.5.*

ZoneLabs ZoneAlarm

Partition Magic 8.0 CD (or on boot diskettes even better).

TCPView (Network diagnostics tool)

SisSandra 2007 (Awesome machine diagnostics tool)

Ewido anti-malware

Spyware, search and destroy

HijackThis

MagicBelly KeyFinder (For determining which Product key is coded in your computer)

PrimoPDF (For free PDF file generation, though it is a bit unpredictable)

Alcool 120% (For CD/DVD ripping)

CNR (click n run for *spire linux OS's)

Devices:

======

D-Link WUA 1310 (USB wireless g adapter)

D-Link WBR 1310 (wireless g router)

OS's:

====

Windows XP

Windows SBS 2003

Freespire (a highly user-friendly Linux that is very similar to windows)

(I sadly have not yet had the chance to play with more linux distros, so the list of appreciated Linux OS's ends here)

Some things I have not been very happy with:

==============================

Wireless adapter compatibility in Linux.

Windows OS's not being able to read ext2 files.

Wireless network setup in Linux.

Some Linux isos barely fit in a CD or just slightly exceed the CD volume. This happened to me with ALinux 12.7 and 12.8.

APC UPS 350r model.

DSLinux was not what it was all pumped up to be. The menu is frustrating on small screens.

Norton Ghost 9.0 is not compatible with SBS 2003 (for image creation).

Nero StartSmart CD/DVD burning solution. Made SBS 2003 hang often.

There is so much knowledge I wish to share with you all, but to be honest, in order to grow, you need to get your hands dirty. Don't be afraid to try stuff. When I started off, I decided to register to as many forums as I could, and the result was finding a wide and diverse array of people to help me and tools that would deem useful for my tasks. It's been awesome!

Well, thanks for hearing me out guys.

Phil.

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