98SE constantly hangs on a new computer

[dtamonis]

Hello,

when I bought a new computer nearly a year ago, I faced a big problem. It's been locking up for no reason every so often, once a day in average. I did clean reinstall three times, I bought a new video card, I didn't install any additional video codecs, just about everything I could think of - and nothing helped. The computer still hangs randomly. I suspect this is because of motherboard's crappy win98 support, though its manual says 98SE is supported. I wonder, is that a commonly known problem with newer computers with win98 installed? If so, could the unofficial service pack rescue me or the only way to go is to change the motherboard? Or maybe this can be CPU or RAM's fault? The computer is still under warranty, but it looks like I'll have to go in a battle with the vendor, because they say "Install XP". And I don't want to. So, first I want to see if I can fix the problem myself, and if not, then start battling. Please share your experiences.

System specs:

Asrock K7VT4A+ motherboard;

AMD Sempron 2200+ (1.5GHz) processor;

256 mb DDR RAM;

GeForce4 MX440 AGP8x videocard 128mb/128bit;

WD Caviar 80GB HDD;

CDRW, DVD-ROM;

Two NIC's, one integrated, one Realtek;

Creative SBLive! soundcard (integrated one disabled in BIOS);

PlayTV Pro TV/FM tuner.

Edited October 16, 2005 by dtamonis

[miko]

overheating ?

power supply not up to the job ?

IRQ conflict ?

could be any of the above.

[ssmokee]

What is the make and model of the power supply you are using?

Have the lockups always occured, or did they just start recently?

Have you tried reinstalling windows?

A couple of other things I would suggest doing is downloading a program like speedfan and take a look at your CPU temperature, and all the voltage readings as well. Try looking at everything both in idle and under load. You can use programs like super pi, or the benchmark function of 7-zip to stress the CPU and have it draw more power. Check the CPU HS/F closely for dust build up. Also, running the computer with the side panel removed might reveal if this is a heat related issue. If you take the side panel off and the lockups cease, high temps are the most likely culprit.

[dtamonis]

overheating ?

I wish it was that simple... No, the CPU temperature barely exceeds 40°C, and I knew if it were overheating. Plus, it may hang after 20 minutes after bootup, or after 12 hours. It can happen while I'm doing various CPU intensive stuff or just idling. It's random.

power supply not up to the job ?

I didn't notice anything wrong with the power supply. Old computer never crashed and when I changed to the current one, I had two hangs the first evening.

IRQ conflict ?

I don't think anything is conflicting, anyway, here's what System Information tool shows:

could be any of the above.

So far I think it's none of the above, but thanks for the ideas.

What is the make and model of the power supply you are using?

To tell that, I'd need to shut down and open the case. I'll probably look later, but it seems to work OK.

Have the lockups always occured, or did they just start recently?

Always, from the very first evening.

Have you tried reinstalling windows?

Yes, I already said that. Did a clean install three times, one of them was with format. After one reinstall there were a few days when computer didn't hang at all. Then, after installing a codec pack (I think it was K-Lite) the system used to freeze after opening any movie. I uninstalled it and then installed Xvid separately. However, hangups returned. That's why I think there may be something to do with video codecs. Anyway, when I changed the computer, I installed the same video codecs that I had on the old computer, and they didn't cause any problems before. Furthermore, good hardware shouldn't hang because of Divx or Xvid installed, should it?

There's one more thing. When I brought the computer to the warranty service, some jerk, after seeing win98, immediately decided to throw XP in, and he, being a jerk, mixed HDD's and installed XP on my HDD, destroying precious data. This was the time I had to reinstall after a format. Oh, and when I took back my computer, I've been told that it'd been working fluently for 2 days. So this may be an OS (bad support) problem. Well, I could just install XP and see what happens, but it would be a pain to reinstall everything, and after a few days, again reinstall everything (going back to 98). That's why I'm asking here if someone had similar experiences.

[eidenk]

There are loads of settings in the BIOS that affect stability. Maybe you want to look there and reset everything to default settings just in case the "some jerk" also touched it.

Furthermore, good hardware shouldn't hang because of Divx or Xvid installed, should it?

No it shouldn't at all.

[dtamonis]

There are loads of settings in the BIOS that affect stability. Maybe you want to look there and reset everything to default settings just in case the "some jerk" also touched it.

I think BIOS settings should've been the default ones when I bought the computer. And the problem was since the very beginning.

Now that you mentioned BIOS, I remembered one excerpt from the motherboard's manual:

Repost Video on STR Resume

This feature allows you to repost video on STR resume. It is recommended to

enable this feature under Microsoft® Windows® 98 / ME.

This option is disabled and greyed out. I have no clue why, nor what is this option for.

[ssmokee]

Then, after installing a codec pack (I think it was K-Lite) the system used to freeze after opening any movie.

I installed the k-lite codec pack several months ago and had the same problem, so I just stopped using it. Since it didnt work for you either, I would simply suggest not installing it again. But, if the random lockups have always occured, I dont see why you would think k-lite codec pack or other video codecs are the culprit.

I didn't notice anything wrong with the power supply. Old computer never crashed and when I changed to the current one, I had two hangs the first evening.

Just because it can power an older system, doesnt mean it can power the newer system. The amount of electrical power a desktop system requires has increased a lot over the years.

Other than using speedfan or something to check voltage levels at idle and load, I would strongly recommend downloading the latetest memtest86+. Download from the link that reads "Pre-Compiled Bootable ISO (.zip)", then unpack it and burn it to CD. Or if you would rather just boot memtest from a floppy, get the "Pre-Compiled package for Floppy (DOS - Win)". Once memtest starts, let it complete atleast 3 full passes. If you can leave it running memtest over night, even better.

Well, I could just install XP and see what happens, but it would be a pain to reinstall everything, and after a few days, again reinstall everything (going back to 98).

Well if you want to see if this problem is windows 98 specific, I cant think of a better way than installing something other than 98.

Edit: Using a linux live CD such as Knoppix might be a good idea, since it would let you keep you 98 install intact.

Edited October 16, 2005 by ssmokee

[dtamonis]

Just because it can power an older system, doesnt mean it can power the newer system. The amount of electrical power a desktop system requires has increased a lot over the years.

Ah, I misunderstood you here. I thought you meant power supply in general (for my household). I didn't put the old PSU, I bought a new one together with the computer.

But, if the random lockups have always occured, I dont see why you would think k-lite codec pack or other video codecs are the culprit.

This is just a speculation, since I don't have better explanation. I think the problem started reappearing after a clean win98 install when I installed the codecs.

I'll try to leave memtest tonight, I never switch the PC off at nights anyway.

Well if you want to see if this problem is windows 98 specific, I cant think of a better way than installing something other than 98.

That's the logic I cannot deny Well, when I have less work to do with the PC, maybe next week, I'll have to try that.

Using a linux live CD such as Knoppix might be a good idea, since it would let you keep you 98 install intact.

But Linux isn't listed among compatible OS in motherboard's documentation, and if I want to claim a warranty replacement, I must use a compatible OS. Besides, I'm not familiar with Linux at all. I think I'll get another HDD somewhere and install XP into it, and plug my HDD as a slave to access the data needed.

I'd also like to hear from someone who possibly uses a recent Asrock mobo and Win98se combination.

Edited October 16, 2005 by dtamonis

[eidenk]

I wanted to suggest testing the memory as well.

Also I have googled a bit and it seems there could FSB speed issues with this combo. See your mobo manual for jumper and BIOS settings with regards to FSB speed.

Also make sure your CPU is recognized as a Sempron and not an AthlonXP by the BIOS. It seems that some of those boards need a firmware upgrade (Bios Flashing) to recognize Semprons properly.

[dtamonis]

Also I have googled a bit and it seems there could FSB speed issues with this combo. See your mobo manual for jumper and BIOS settings with regards to FSB speed.

Also make sure your CPU is recognized as a Sempron and not an AthlonXP by the BIOS. It seems that some of those boards need a firmware upgrade (Bios Flashing) to recognize Semprons properly.

FSB jumpers are set to 333 Mhz, BIOS shows AMD Sempron 1500 Mhz (166 x 9). As far as I know, that's fine. Just for the heck of it, I set the jumpers to 266 Mhz, the BIOS then showed 133 x 9, and the CPU as Athlon XP 1200. Switched back, again Sempron 1500.

[miko]

these boards have low quality power circuits they need better quality power to function as well as they can do.

(i have one sitting behind me in its box right now believe it or not (well a K7VT4A Pro) so have a vested interest in whether you sort this out or not, it's my spare incase my nforce2 goes belly up, i thought i'd buy it before SoA disappears of the market place) with that many addons you should be running at least a good quality 400W PSU if not more (especially if you want to upgrade your VGA at some point).

if the memory test comes up fine try removing all extras from the machine (CD roms, extra cards etc) just leave the on board NIC, the VGA and the hard disc see what happens from there as you add stuff back on, of course of you have a 480-500 Antec PSU (or such like) you shouldn't have any problems in that department.

what size/make of PSU did you buy ?

people have reported much the same problem as you (seach Google)

most answers seem to revolve around 'do you have enough power ?'

as for your IRQs, the VGA card should be on 11 by itself for maximum stablity (how you manage that is often tricky).

could you post another shot of your 'IRQs' from System Information tool ?

eidenk has covered most other possiblitys fully (BIOS update, memory test etc).

could chipset drivers possibly be an issue eidenk ?

which version are you using dtamonis ?

i personally would ignore the Board manufacturers site downloads (after reading it and looking about (Google) for any specific issues) and go for the Chipset manufacturers when doing an install on a new board, working backwards (through the versions) if any issues arose. Latest VIA 98SE Chipset drivers

btw it is possible (from what i've read) a few of these boards are just 'bad'.

although i take it you know this is an AMD recommended board (there aren't that many) . . .

Edited October 17, 2005 by miko

[eidenk]

could chipset drivers possibly be an issue eidenk ?

Probably. But I am not an expert you know. Anyway there are the drivers that come on CD with the board and maybe up to date ones on the manufacturer website, but besides this not much can be done if they are buggy for 98.

Also this board is dead cheap which is why it is interesting but I think this means that there is going to be on average more faulty boards than from another more expensive brand for the approximate same specs as the the difference in price will mostly come from the difference in price of the myriad of components making the board and the difference in price of those components mostly comes I believe from the inferior sampling and testing of the batches of components as well as a greater tolerance from deviation from the norm for the said components as is the case with HiFi which means the likeliness of the presence of faulty components on a cheap board will be greater. In HiFi you can buy a cheap amp that has got a superb sound but you must be lucky and it's not guaranteed that if you buy another of the same amp it will sound as great as the first one. You'll be guaranteed the superb sound only if you buy a more expensive model where the components are more thoroughly tested. Just another guess.

[dtamonis]

Wow, loads of information for me to eat

First of, memory test. After 6.5 hours of running, no errors were detected.

what size/make of PSU did you buy ?

Not sure about the PSU brand, to see its top I need to take it out, too lazy now, though on the side there was "Benton Commerce". Anyway, it's 300W. According to some PSU calculator I came across yesterday, I need 235W, so I sorta should be fine, but if people are experiencing similar problems and more wattage helps, then this may well be the case. I'd never thought of that myself. So, my next logical step would be removing some devices. I can remove one CD device, TV tuner and soundcard. The other CD device and the second NIC are necessary all the time. I wonder, which should I leave: DVD-ROM or CD-RW?

people have reported much the same problem as you (seach Google)

most answers seem to revolve around 'do you have enough power ?'

I don't consider myself very bad at Googling, but I never found a discussion where someone had this problem and there were solutions to it. Would be grateful for a direct link or two.

as for your IRQs, the VGA card should be on 11 by itself for maximum stablity (how you manage that is often tricky).

could you post another shot of your 'IRQs' from System Information tool ?

You mean, nothing but videocard should have IRQ11? Well, that would be really tricky, as there currently are six other devices sharing 11 :-) I updated my shot, since today I installed VIA drivers from CD-ROM (after last reinstall I decided not to install them and see what happens). It's a bit complicated now to post the shot's URL, see first page and refresh it, there should be three IRQ 10's.

could chipset drivers possibly be an issue eidenk ?

which version are you using dtamonis ?

Not sure now how to check the version, on the CD there are two installations, 4in1446v.exe and 4in1449v.exe, have no clue which one was installed.

Should I try to uninstall it and install the latest from VIA's website?

btw it is possible (from what i've read) a few of these boards are just 'bad'.

Well, I nearly pray for that, then I'd get it warranty-replaced. Still, I'd like to leave the instalation of XP as the last resort.

Also this board is dead cheap which is why it is interesting but I think this means that there is going to be on average more faulty boards than from another more expensive brand for the approximate same specs as the the difference in price will mostly come from the difference in price of the myriad of components making the board...

True, I chose the cheapest configuration since I'm on a tight budget. Now I regret...

Thanks to all for willing to help, now I feel that I may really find out what's wrong here.

Edited October 17, 2005 by dtamonis

[ssmokee]

First of, memory test. After 6.5 hours of running, no errors were detected.

That is very good, because via based boards are known to have problems with minor random errors in memtest.

Not sure about the PSU brand, to see its top I need to take it out, too lazy now, though on the side there was "Benton Commerce". Anyway, it's 300W. According to some PSU calculator I came across yesterday, I need 235W, so I sorta should be fine, but if people are experiencing similar problems and more wattage helps, then this may well be the case.

Its a generic power supply, so its labelled wattage rating cant be trusted. It isnt uncommon for generic power supplies to have problems with K7/K8/P4 systems.

So, my next logical step would be removing some devices. I can remove one CD device, TV tuner and soundcard. The other CD device and the second NIC are necessary all the time. I wonder, which should I leave: DVD-ROM or CD-RW?

I wouldnt bother removing anything yet. The easiest way to diagnose a bad power supply is to do what I mentioned earlier and use speed fan to monitor the voltage levels. If they vary more than +/- %5 while the computer in under load, then you have problems.

Should I try to uninstall it and install the latest from VIA's website?

Worth a shot, but unlikely to be the problem.

You mean, nothing but videocard should have IRQ11?

That would be ideal.

[miko]

i have a possible hot tip from a french forum

make sure the infra-red (com ?) port is deactivated the bios (? does that make any sense to you ?)

link

disabled AGP Fastwrites in the BIOS (?) i know this setting can cause problems on some system from personal experiance

link

heres a guy who had overheating problems (which you've checked for) his system is almost the same as yours (except you have more 'stuff'), check his PSU size (just out of interest) . . .

link

windows 98SE RAM timings problem

http://extremetechsupport.com/forum/showth....phtml?t=124674

i will post any more things i find (had much better returns yesterday night but i think i was searching with K7VT4A Pro entries).

thats me for tonight, like i said i have a vested interest in this, so i'll probably look again for more stuff later . . . .

hth.

PS. AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT consider investing in a high quality high power PSU, it is one of the most important components in the whole machine and people almost always underestimate its importance. you can justify the cost due to fact that A. they are not actually that expensive and B. if you buy wisely they will outlast full system upgrades (3 full MB & case changes on my current one for example) as high a wattage as you can afford but thats not the only thing thats important you want 'cleanliness' of the power as well. ie voltage and current regulation this is the kind of thing

Edited November 21, 2005 by miko