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luxpops

Question on BartPE for a university project

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Hi, as I'm doing my final project next semester, I was given an idea of project

the idea is the replace all the hard disk drive by USB Flash for the operating system

after doing some research, I found this forum and I read about BartPE, I tried to look for more info on what I want to do with BartPE but can really find any

what I would like to know is: when you make create a BartPE windows is the Windows fully functional (for everyday use)?? when you shut down and reboot the machine are all the data still there??

Regards

Ryan

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what I would like to know is: when you make create a BartPE windows is the Windows fully functional (for everyday use)?? when you shut down and reboot the machine are all the data still there??

I believe there are some that do this, if you're using a writable drive then your data will remain intact.

You may want to head over to the 911cd forums, that's the BartPE support is. ;)

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Please note.

PE is NOT an every day Operatign System. It has a 24 hour automatic reboot built into the code.

It by no means ment to replace XP. And... you need a fully licensed version of XP anyway to us it.

PE is a temporary OS... a tool... A means to an end.

Chris

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You should look into XP Embedded for your project, not WinPE (BartPE is WinPE). WinPE is focused solely on networking and VESA mode video. Adding other devices is possible in the most recent version - but generally just to see the device itself. And there is no power management in WinPE (and it forgets all registry entries that occur during each boot). Additionally, as noted, the licesing of WinPE is handled through specific channels, and BartPE licensing is questionable at best. XP Embedded was designed to be used the way you are thinking - although in it's current incarnation it has problems booting from USB Flash Drive.

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I agree completely with ChrisBaksa and getwired.

BartPE is an excellent tool for repair and recovery, I definitely wouldn't want to use it as my main OS.

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:thumbup Thanks for your replies, I'll have a look at XP Embedded to see if it could fit the project

it was just an idea of project so I was looking at information for it, and from what you all of you said BartPE nor WinPE will suit the project

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have u looked at the bart PE beta its on the 911cd forum it has a batch file to enable you to make a usb flash disk into a bootable device. and if its for your project i dont think that you need the OS to be fully functioning for everyday use. its just to use for your project and there is a patch to stop the 24 hours limit. but i think you should get it just to check out anyway. there is also another program out called flashboot have a look for it. its in early stages but still works.

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have u looked at the bart PE beta its on the 911cd forum it has a batch file to enable you to make a usb flash disk into a bootable device. and if its for your project i dont think that you need the OS to be fully functioning for everyday use. its just to use for your project and there is a patch to stop the 24 hours limit. but i think you should get it just to check out anyway. there is also another program out called flashboot have a look for it. its in early stages but still works.

BartPE is less than optimal for a school project, as it puts one in a shady legal ground with Microsoft. Disabling the 24 hour time bomb, which Microsoft put in there quire by design - isn't even questionable, it's illegal.

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BartPE is far from illegal...I suggest you read this:

http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/#legal

The only issue left is the fact that people don't buy a seperate license to use only for BartPE.

There is no 24 hour limit, because they found a legal way around it (PELoader)

BARTPE IS NOT WINPE!!! THEY SHARE NO FILES!!!

All the files from BartPE come from a standard WinXP source, and none are altered.

Now, back to the project.

Yes, you can boot BartPE from USB devices...but it's not quite what you are thinking. As I understand it, the only successful ways of doing this involve loading an ISO image from the USB device into the RAM, and the booting it from the RAM. This is good for speed, but bad because you need twice the RAM. That, and no changes are saved. Also, this process needs files from 2003 SP1, so it starts to get a little illegal...

You can install BartPE to a regular HD, as use it as a regular OS. If you look in the menu of a fresh BartPE, you'll see an item like "HDDInstall" or something...they keep changing the name to much for me to keep up with. This will copy your current BartPE setup to a HD and set it up to run from it. I've never done this myself, but it should give you insight as to what's going on. This will allow you to make and save settings/documents. But it's still a little slow when compaired to a regular install of WinXP. And since you legally should have a seperate license for BartPE, it really doesn't save you any money.

I don't know if these other people have seen some of the things you can do with BartPE. They have XPE, which basically gives you a fully-functioning shell based off explorer.exe, there are thousands of plugins to run everything from Office to Nero to Citrix to even certain games, and there is a large (And growing) base of hardware support that lets you use things like sounds cards, usb devices, printers, modems, etc.

I would suggest you check out their official support forums for more info. It's the best place to find out more:

911cd.net/forums

Good luck on your project!

Edited by InTheWayBoy

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Are you a lawyer? Have you consulted one? If no to either one, I suggest you contemplate carefully the EULA included with your own copy of Windows. What Bart has done is borderline (he has technically violated the reverse-engineering aspect of the Windows EULA) any customer who uses BartPE is electing to "interpret" Microsoft's EULA in a way beneficial to them. In a trial, a judge is unlikely to agree.

There is no legal way to remove the 24 hour timebomb. That was a feature intentionally designed in to limit the product (WinPE). Removing them is removing licensing limitations Microsoft built into the operating system. Again, consult your EULA.

BARTPE IS WINPE!!! (sorry, had to since you yelled it at me). Where do you think WinPE files come from, the magical file fairy? No, they come from Windows XP or Windows Server 2003 source, just as BartPE does. BartPE is a well-engineered reverse engineering of WinPE (with a better build process). Sorry to disappoint you.

Don't believe me that BartPE is just reverse-engineered WinPE? Fine. Try this.

Open up your copy of "BartPE".

Open your txtsetup.sif file.

Find the line that starts with OSLoadOptions

Delete the entry in that line that reads "/MiniNT"

Now try booting your copy of "BartPE". It won't work.

Why does that prove anything? Because that switch is the key component that tells numerous components that "I'm starting in WinPE mode". MiniNT was the name for WinPE when it was initial development. You remove that key, and BartPE (like WinPE) is nothing but an amalgam of random Windows files.

Now, back to the project.

Booting WinPE from a USB Flash Drive is fully supported with Windows Server 2003 SP1 as the source, and in fact the tools are provided - but it is only supported for, and the tools provided to, OEM system manufacturers - because the only way to ensure this works is for the OEM to test and ensure their BIOS supports USB 2.0 and boot from USB Mass Storage, and that the system itself supports USB 2.0 - both required for booting WinPE. Booting from ISO requires the same functionality. It is possible to boot a USB Flash Drive without Microsoft's tools, but YMMV. And previous to Windows Server Sp1 as the source, one will incur problems.

Edited by getwired

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Well then we have a debate! :thumbup

BartPE and WinPE are two different applications...totally different code. There is no bartpe.exe in WinPE, and there is no oscdimg.exe in BartPE. They both take common windows files and arrange them specifically to their needs. They both have similar intended outcomes, being a bootable Win32 environment, but they accomplish it in different ways.

The options that BartPE provides over WinPE are capable not because they are editing/hacking any source files, but because they include extra programs. PELoader, PENetCFG, NU2Menu, etc are all custom applications made by people who see a problem and can provide a fix. This is much in the same way that all software for a standard Windows OS is developed, so to deem the products included with BartPE as illegal just because of the way they interact with the core functions (Remember, no M$ code is altered) invalidates all other third-party applications.

The MiniNT switch is verified, but calling a built-in function hardly seems like a problem. If that's the case, then all the things we do here on MSFN are illegal too!

The EULA does reference reverse engineering, but is vague and doesn't spell it out other than saying you can't decompile or disassemble. While I can't verify that the makers of BartPE haven't done this, there is no evidence to show that any M$ code has been decompiled or disassembled to make BartPE.

And there doesn't seem to be any specific reference to the 24 hour limit...doesn't impose on the WinXP EULA. It may impose on the WinPE EULA, but since you don't need WinPE then that's a moot point.

But I'm not a lawyer, so I'll admit that I could be wrong on the licensing aspects of BartPE. But as a tech, I don't see how anyone could say that BartPE is illegal from a technical point of view. There is no code altering, other than what seems to be universally allowed. Knowing M$ I'm sure they could single BartPE out, but it doesn't look like they care much about it at the moment.

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BartPE and WinPE are two different applications...totally different code.

Nope. If WinPE had not been created by Microsoft, Bart would still be working on his old DOS based boot projects, and BartPE would not exist. The code for WinPE to run is strewn throughout Windows (XP and Server 2003) and relies on the presence of the MiniNT switch to tell the code what to do and what not to do - ranging from the kernel to the memory manager to winlogon.

There is no bartpe.exe in WinPE, and there is no oscdimg.exe in BartPE.

I'm not sure how you can draw an analog there. OSCDIMG is hardly needed for WinPE - it's simply the ISO creation aspect of WinPE. It's not there because Bart can't redistribute it, and he's come up with his own tool for building an ISO with boot code.

They both take common windows files and arrange them specifically to their needs. They both have similar intended outcomes, being a bootable Win32 environment, but they accomplish it in different ways.

Or not. If you compare the layout of BartPE with WinPE, it is identical. Tag files, ntdetect.com, setupldr txtsetup.sif, an I386 directory when on CD, a MiniNT directory when on HDD (ever wonder why that is?)... effectively identical - because it is using WinPE code to run 99.9% of it's functionality - except any aspects Bart or the BartPE community have written on top of it.

The options that BartPE provides over WinPE are capable not because they are editing/hacking any source files, but because they include extra programs.

I never said they were. The ADO, WSH, and HTA functionality originally shipped in WinPE were added in much the same way, albeit post-build instead of at build time. There was a reason for that, by the way.

...so to deem the products included with BartPE as illegal just because of the way they interact with the core functions (Remember, no M$ code is altered) invalidates all other third-party applications.

1) Why do people insist on saying "M$"? It's obnoxious. 2) no, you're again drawing in something I didn't say. I said any code that modifies the 24-hour timebomb is illegal. It's just like bypassing activation code. Not legal. Say it with me. Not legal.

The MiniNT switch is verified, but calling a built-in function hardly seems like a problem. If that's the case, then all the things we do here on MSFN are illegal too!

Au contraire. Years ago, Mark Russinovich discovered that two simple keys held the difference between Windows NT Workstation and Windows NT Server. Tweak those two keys, and you've turned a workstation product into a server (http://www.oreilly.com/news/differences_nt.html). Do you think that was legal? Me either. But that is what Bart allows customers to do. Convert one version of Windows into another. One they are licensed for into another they are not. It's up to you, the users of BartPE to determine if what you are doing is legal or not. You've chosen to believe Bart's rather liberal interpretation of the Windows XP EULA, and his choice to ignore the aspect of the EULA which reads: "Microsoft reserves all rights not expressly granted to you in this EULA." Meaning if the section of the WinPE EULA that you missed by circumventing it could be applied to you anyway - at Microsoft's discretion. No, Microsoft hasn't chosen to go after anyone. Yet. However, they did go after Bart several times - see his site. If you work for a company of any size and are using BartPE instead of WinPE, personally I'd question that. But hey, caveat licensor.

...But as a tech, I don't see how anyone could say that BartPE is illegal from a technical point of view.

I didn't say it was illegal from a technical point of view. I said it from a legal point of view. :-) It's at the discretion of whomever is using it to determine whether they think what they are doing is legal or not. Personally I don't think what Bart has done is that questionable - but he has put BartPE's users into an uncomfortable position of interpreting a EULA, or simply believing that Bart is correct in his rather liberal interpretation. But hey, it's just Microsoft, right? :-)

but it doesn't look like they care much about it at the moment.

Indeed. But ask yourself, if they went after one or two companies who were using it, would you still use it?

BTW, I'm not trying to be an a-hole here. Just trying to honestly and openly discuss what BartPE is in relation to WinPE, and to get people to fully think about the legal aspects before using it.

Edited by getwired

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Okay, so I can see this going back and forth for a while...I'll give you this, I see your points in relation to the illegalities of BartPE, but I still disagree that BartPE is WinPE. See, if you download BartPE and WinPE and compare the the files for the programs, then you can see they are different. So to me that is all that is needed...I understand they use the same source files, which makes them similar. And while the finished results do mirror each other, it's not 100% identical, which is another factor that helps seperate the two from each other.

And I call them M$ not out of anger or frustration...I'm just acknowledging the fact that they are filthy rich :)

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If you remove the MiniNT switch, BartPE won't work at all. BartPE uses the entire boot codepath developed by Microsoft for WinPE - because it is WinPE. I don't understand why that doesn't convince you they are the same - but whatever... If WinPE didn't exist, BartPE wouldn't... It's really that simple. Bart was very creative in his reverse-engineering of WinPE, and indeed managed to out-do Microsoft as far as build tools. But at the end of the day it is just that - a reverse engineering of WinPE. Why do you think Bart called it BartPE? Just for giggles?

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