j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22

[justacruzr2]

18 hours ago, awkduck said:

If you go far enough, then you'd have to deal with all the different hardware variations. The JAVA, write once and run everywhere, idea was cool. But I'd hate to use a modern web browser, written in JAVA.

Eventually, most people's idea of an OS will interface through a scripted client/server GUI environment. Our devices will be nothing but kiosks. Getting a new OS, will be upgrading your "OS as a Service" package.

So, ironically, well be hoping our kiosk-ish devices are compatible with the service. A reversal. Needing the right browser, to access your OS; rather then the right OS to use access your browser.

Note: A kiosk does have an OS. But in this situation, its more akin to soft firmware.

This is the only way a Metaverse could work. You can't fluidly go from device to device, each one loading everything up. Nor would you want to walk around, with augmented glasses etc., connected to some large GPU/CPU and storage media. From your bathroom > living room > sidewalk > car, the stream is just re-initiated where you left off. Until B.C.I.s become popular. Then it would be just one stream, that follows you around.

I'm not looking forward to it, but one day it will be difficult connecting these devices/OSs to the Internet. Perhaps illegal. A device with user guided processing, on this side of the cloud, may be considered insecure. You can imagine, it would much easier to secure the Internet/Metaverse "from bad actors" if everyone only has direct access to the input side of things. We are nearing that, with smart phones. They are powerful computers, with well curated portals to apply that power.

The browsers we know, will be (are being) reinvented between retro group hobbyists. Kinda like how the 8/16bit retro scene still comes out with new browsers. Hackaday has a retro webpage, for old machines on the Internet. That's gonna be us one day Sooner, if you've went to check that link, in your Win9x browser.

I didn't mean written in Java.  Whatever language is used for such a thing.  A good example of a stand alone app is Sun Microsystems StarOffice 5.2.  It's the equivalent of MS Office.  It's 186MB in size and is composed of 2,125 files.  It uses no Windows OS files and doesn't even make 1 registry entry.  It uses the old style cfg and ini files for that.  It also includes Adabas which is an SQL language similar to the other SQL languages (Access for instance).  I have it on all 3 of my OS's: 98SE, ME and XP Pro SP3.  It came bundled with my computer when I bought it.  You just unzip the file and copy it over to the root directory.  I think you might be able to find it out there as a free download now.  It runs on any Windows OS.

 

Just out of curiosity, I loaded the Java 5 update 22 into HxD last night.  HxD is a hex editor that's a free download.  I've used it for years to examine files.  You can view and edit any file on any device including the BIOS ROM on the motherboard.  Anyway I saw where the Java update looks at version.dll to get the version of the OS, the website link it wants to go to for the update (https://java.com/update/jre1.0.5_22), and the variable GET_UPDATE=1.  I think I can use my disk editor to change the value of that variable to zero (0), or maybe just copy the version.dll over from ME and let it think it's on Millennium and see what happens.

[awkduck]

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

I didn't mean written in Java.

Don't mind me, I'm just jesting about extremes.

I have a fondness for static (or near static) applications. That is one of the things making "GO" (static friendly) an interesting programing language. Or tools like FreePascal/Lazarus (very portable) appealing.

Sometimes, in some tech corners, you get criticized for reinventing the wheel. But back in the Dos days, static building was much more normal. Then again, Dos didn't provide you much to build off of. There wasn't a library folder anywhere. Not that you couldn't do that.

But if you built things with less dependencies, especially O.S. dependencies, it would be harder to control the product life cycle.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

HxD is a hex editor

Just did a post mentioning it. Great tool.

 

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

I think I can use my disk editor to change the value of that variable to zero

Absolutely, you can. Some installers hash themselves, checking for changes. But I doubt that is the case here.

Edited February 16, 2023 by awkduck

[justacruzr2]

20 hours ago, awkduck said:

Don't mind me, I'm just jesting about extremes.

I have a fondness for static (or near static) applications. That is one of the things making "GO" (static friendly) an interesting programing language. Or tools like FreePascal/Lazarus (very portable) appealing.

Sometimes, in some tech corners, you get criticized for reinventing the wheel. But back in the Dos days, static building was much more normal. Then again, Dos didn't provide you much to build off of. There wasn't a library folder anywhere. Not that you couldn't do that.

But if you built things with less dependencies, especially O.S. dependencies, it would be harder to control the product life cycle.

Just did a post mentioning it. Great tool.

 

Absolutely, you can. Some installers hash themselves, checking for changes. But I doubt that is the case here.

That's a good point.  I suppose though, with so many things changing in IT and the internet, you would still have to keep it up to date with the changes which would make the previous version obsolete but you could still keep it 'static" and able to be used on any OS.  Never heard of GO before.  Is it a programming language?

 

That's what happened the first time I brought it into HxD.  I edited the UPDATE value and re-saved it but it no longer had the Java icon and when I tried to run it I got an error message that the file was corrupt.  Probably due to HxD saving it exactly as you see it on the screen.  That's why I will try the disk editor.  Sneak in and sneak out.  HxD will give me the position in the file where that value is located and with that I should be able to go to that point in the file and make that change.  I like outwitting these smarty pants apps.  Usually I'm successful but not always....we'll see.

I was really surprised when Norton did that.  Actually that's some pretty clever programming.  Never seen an app do that before.  Usually they will issue a warning message that they couldn't load some file and the OS just carries on as usual.  That was what I was hoping so that I didn't have to disturb anything.

 

[awkduck]

3 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Is it a programming language?

Yes. Here it is. You can make static builds with other languages. It can be a pain. But I've found Go impressive.

I don't remember were, and a quick search didn't turn it up, but I think someone ported Go to dos once (protected/extended mode).

3 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

That's what happened the first time I brought it into HxD

Hm? I used Ghex2 and couldn't find the string GET_UPDATE.

[justacruzr2]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:58 PM, awkduck said:

Yes. Here it is. You can make static builds with other languages. It can be a pain. But I've found Go impressive.

I don't remember were, and a quick search didn't turn it up, but I think someone ported Go to dos once (protected/extended mode).

Hm? I used Ghex2 and couldn't find the string GET_UPDATE.

I think your right.  When I had the chance last Friday I pulled it back in and couldn't find it either.  Don't know why I said that.  Still think there's a way to do it though.  I'll have to look at it some more.  I just downloaded go1.20.1.windows-386.zip.  Looking forward to trying it.  Looks a little like "C" with the braces.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[awkduck]

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Don't know why I said that.

Maybe it was in the Nero installer?

 

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Well, it is a direction. Static builds are the very portable, within a O.S. type. I can use new static GO builds, in old Linux distributions. With GCC C/C++, it would often require that the Linux kernel and Glibc be more up-to-date. And with win32, it will also depend on what libraries you build on. But you already knew that part.

There are other options, too.

BlackBox Component Builder, provides something similar(ish) to Java/VB. You can run it on different OS versions and Platforms. I would think the overhead would less, then say Java. However, it has a less mature availability of libraries. But it offers rapid-application-development.

There are some different "Small Talk (modern example)", rapid-application-development, projects. But I'm not sure if there is one, that bridges between many systems.

I mentioned "FreePascal/Lazarus", as there has been some work on win16 and Dos compatibility. Win9x has been depreciated. But, if there was enough interest, it could be re-ignited. If Win9x was brought, more into vogue, it would make FreePascal more interesting. Lazarus, is the rapid-application-development side of things. If Win9x support was re-upped, in FreePascal, Lazarus     would also need updated. But there are alternative environments, to Lazarus, for FreePascal. They rely on the leaner Win/GDI and *nix/X11. MseGUI/IDE and fpGUI are the notable ones.

Note: It might be more likely, that the alternative GUI environments, would consider support for older systems. While they have a smaller development crew, they also have less dependency entanglement. It is also noteworthy, that they could just build in support for older versions of FreePascal; the ones that support Win9x. One could use older versions of FreePascal/development environments, and then minimally port their own code to the new compilers. Also, many older compilers support newer systems.

 For the masochists, like me, there is FASM. It can have good O.S. portability. But is harder to bridge between architecture types. Writing something "like a modern web browser" in this, would be daunting. But, no doubt, many people would praise your skill/insanity. Fresh IDE, is a rapid-application-development environment for FASM. You can imagine, that work on this takes time. But the project could provide useful, if you are looking to use assembly.

More specific to web-browsing, there was an interesting project called "Hv3". It has 12/13 years, since it was last developed. But, might provide interesting study, for someone looking to build a web browser. This one would be "somewhat" useful, as is, if it just had modern encryption support.

But Fifth, is more relevant. It is FLTK3/Webkitfltk based. Obviously, this would require some Win9x back-porting. But it might be less dependency bound, than other options. The least compatible GCC compiler is 4.7.3. That means there is "potential" for MinGW/TDM and Win9x. I am "near" ready, on my own "Win9x" production environment. Hence, less knowledgeable regarding Win9x development. I'm only partially focused there, anyway.

Please forgive, I'm having a histamine attack today (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome). Concentration is harder. If my reply is confusing, it is probably due to my brain fog.

Edited February 21, 2023 by awkduck

[justacruzr2]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:03 PM, awkduck said:

Maybe it was in the Nero installer?

 

Well, it is a direction. Static builds are the very portable, within a O.S. type. I can use new static GO builds, in old Linux distributions. With GCC C/C++, it would often require that the Linux kernel and Glibc be more up-to-date. And with win32, it will also depend on what libraries you build on. But you already knew that part.

There are other options, too.

BlackBox Component Builder, provides something similar(ish) to Java/VB. You can run it on different OS versions and Platforms. I would think the overhead would less, then say Java. However, it has a less mature availability of libraries. But it offers rapid-application-development.

There are some different "Small Talk (modern example)", rapid-application-development, projects. But I'm not sure if there is one, that bridges between many systems.

I mentioned "FreePascal/Lazarus", as there has been some work on win16 and Dos compatibility. Win9x has been depreciated. But, if there was enough interest, it could be re-ignited. If Win9x was brought, more into vogue, it would make FreePascal more interesting. Lazarus, is the rapid-application-development side of things. If Win9x support was re-upped, in FreePascal, Lazarus     would also need updated. But there are alternative environments, to Lazarus, for FreePascal. They rely on the leaner Win/GDI and *nix/X11. MseGUI/IDE and fpGUI are the notable ones.

Note: It might be more likely, that the alternative GUI environments, would consider support for older systems. While they have a smaller development crew, they also have less dependency entanglement. It is also noteworthy, that they could just build in support for older versions of FreePascal; the ones that support Win9x. One could use older versions of FreePascal/development environments, and then minimally port their own code to the new compilers. Also, many older compilers support newer systems.

 For the masochists, like me, there is FASM. It can have good O.S. portability. But is harder to bridge between architecture types. Writing something "like a modern web browser" in this, would be daunting. But, no doubt, many people would praise your skill/insanity. Fresh IDE, is a rapid-application-development environment for FASM. You can imagine, that work on this takes time. But the project could provide useful, if you are looking to use assembly.

More specific to web-browsing, there was an interesting project called "Hv3". It has 12/13 years, since it was last developed. But, might provide interesting study, for someone looking to build a web browser. This one would be "somewhat" useful, as is, if it just had modern encryption support.

But Fifth, is more relevant. It is FLTK3/Webkitfltk based. Obviously, this would require some Win9x back-porting. But it might be less dependency bound, than other options. The least compatible GCC compiler is 4.7.3. That means there is "potential" for MinGW/TDM and Win9x. I am "near" ready, on my own "Win9x" production environment. Hence, less knowledgeable regarding Win9x development. I'm only partially focused there, anyway.

Please forgive, I'm having a histamine attack today (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome). Concentration is harder. If my reply is confusing, it is probably due to my brain fog.

"Please forgive, I'm having a histamine attack today"

Hope you're feeling better now.  And I did understand your reply.  

Seems like you know or know about several modern programming languages.  My experience is limited to the older ones.  I've programmed in ML (Machine Language/Binary), Assembly, RPG, Cobol, CICS, JCL, DB2 and Basic.  There is also the consideration, especially on older systems, that Intel did not put the CPU instruction set in the same place on the chip address-wise.  I've talked with some older programmers who would complain that code would sometimes have to be re-written due to this.  But I think this had to do with changes between the 286, 386 and 486 chips and then the Pentium line.  I think they have probably standardized it by now.  It's been about 10 years since I did any programming.  The last thing I was working on was lost when the hard drive crashed.  I had 7 years invested in that.  It was a large project.  I only just recently was able to recover an old backup of it which unfortunately is 7 years older than the last time I worked on it.  Trying to remember everything I did during those 7 years is impossible.  I should have made a more recent backup.  Live and learn.  Nothing new on the Java front.  I've taken a break to let my mind clear.  I do this sometimes so I can come back to it with a fresh perspective.  Oh, it wasn't Nero but I think it was one of the other Java updates.  I have Java 5 update 18, 21 and 22.  I probably grabbed the wrong one and didn't notice.

Edited February 23, 2023 by justacruzr2
more info

[awkduck]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, justacruzr2 said:

Hope you're feeling better now.  And I did understand your reply.

Its nothing to severe, long term. Sometimes only a few hours. But it has prevented me from engaging employment, in remote administration. Such is the way of things.

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, justacruzr2 said:

Seems like you know or know about several modern programming languages.  My experience is limited to the older ones.  I've programmed in ML (Machine Language/Binary), Assembly, RPG, Cobol, CICS, JCL, DB2 and Basic.  There is also the consideration, especially on older systems, that Intel did not put the CPU instruction set in the same place on the chip address-wise.  I've talked with some older programmers who would complain that code would sometimes have to be re-written due to this.  But I think this had to do with changes between the 286, 386 and 486 chips and then the Pentium line.  I think they have probably standardized it by now.  It's been about 10 years since I did any programming.  The last thing I was working on was lost when the hard drive crashed.  I had 7 years invested in that.  It was a large project.  I only just recently was able to recover an old backup of it which unfortunately is 7 years older than the last time I worked on it.  Trying to remember everything I did during those 7 years is impossible.  I should have made a more recent backup.  Live and learn.  Nothing new on the Java front.  I've taken a break to let my mind clear.  I do this sometimes so I can come back to it with a fresh perspective.  Oh, it wasn't Nero but I think it was one of the other Java updates.  I have Java 5 update 18, 21 and 22.  I probably grabbed the wrong one and didn't notice.

I've had many harddrive failures, in the last few years. That is part of what has taken me so long, in setting up a development environment. Add to it, that I am fickle at system crafting. The aim is redundant safe saves and quick machine portability.

Years ago, I had a several year project zeroed on me. Ironically, it was in Java. It can really be discouraging. It has happened often enough, that I've learn to just let it go. However, once in a while, it was for the better.

I have messed with many different languages and operating systems. Not many scripted languages. I don't care for Lisp, but ironically love Scheme; this causes me to admire ML. I like ASM, the simplicity of complexity. Most high level languages, seem like the complexity of simplicity; for the sake of organization/business. On the outside, Forth looks great; but I have yet to investigate it. The moving target of progression, has always seemed poorly implemented. Not having a career agenda, has greatly liberated my scope.

When the 286/386 were in main use, and the 486 in fresh vogue, I really only used C and Batch. I was so out of the loop, I had never even known about Pascal. I knew about GWBasic, but never bothered to check it out. I was pretty young. While I find assembly a focus, I would not be the guy to address a wide range of processors. I initially set out targeting the NEC 186 V-chip. Even now, I find the Next186 pretty tempting. So I might get to learn all about these differences you've mentioned.

Thanks, for sharing some of your history. I enjoyed it.

 

[awkduck]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, justacruzr2 said:

There is also the consideration, especially on older systems, that Intel did not put the CPU instruction set in the same place on the chip address-wise.  I've talked with some older programmers who would complain that code would sometimes have to be re-written due to this.

Just to be clear, have you yourself written in assembly? Its not important. I just wanted to ask.

[justacruzr2]

5 hours ago, awkduck said:

Just to be clear, have you yourself written in assembly? Its not important. I just wanted to ask.

"Thanks, for sharing some of your history. I enjoyed it."

Glad you did.  All the languages I mentioned above I have programmed in.  Here's a little more history.  The ML/Binary and Assembly were on an IBM 360, The RPG was on an IBM 370 System3 and the COBOL/JCL/DB2/CICS was on an IBM S390.  Programming on a mainframe is awesomely cool.  They are just so fast.  And it's nice to program in an environment that is bullet-proof bug-wise.  I have also programmed in Basic and COBOL on the PC.  For my 1st computer (the little TI99 4/A) I also have C, Forth, Pascal and a couple others I don't remember right now.  I've never used them though.....yet!  One day I'll get around to it.  The early backup of that system I was working on that I lost will have to be run thru the compiler again to see where I left off.  It's a good thing though that I kept all my notes and the sample forms.  If I get back to it they should help me get back up to speed but I doubt I can completely put it back to where I had it.  There was so much and I had it completely de-bugged.  And I have never really let it go....it still bugs me.  Just less than it did at first.  I do have the drive that it was on still.  2 years ago I brought it over to Best Buy to have them retrieve whatever was on it that could be saved but they returned it to me 2 days later saying there was nothing.  I really never believed that.  There must be something on there that can be saved.  At least I would like to take a look myself and verify that.

[awkduck]

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

IBM 360, The RPG was on an IBM 370 System3 and the COBOL/JCL/DB2/CICS was on an IBM S390

I don't know if this would interest you. I've mean to eventually check it out, for x86.

In some ways, COBOL is still a "Hot" language.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Programming on a mainframe is awesomely cool

I've never had the pleasure. When I was a young man, my mother worked for "Cray Research". The closest I ever got, was by looking through the lab windows; you could see from the cafeteria.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

For my 1st computer (the little TI99 4/A)

So did my cousin. I had the Tandy Color Computer II. We both got them as hand-me-downs. They were beyond their expiration date, at that time. I never actually learned the included Basic. I just copied text, from old magazines.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

they returned it to me 2 days later saying there was nothing.  I really never believed that.  There must be something on there that can be saved.

If it was IDE, I'm not sure they even plugged it in. They might not do much, for hardware failure. They can probably deal with "bad blocks".  You could buy a duplicate "working" drive online. It needs to be the exact same model; same revision and everything. Depending on what is wrong, with the drive, the external boards can be swapped. If it is internal hardware, then it can be replaced, from the working drive.

I "don't" recommend that you do the internal repairs yourself. There are special tools needed, for each drive brand. Even if you have the tools, it is very easy to make a mistake. It is also hard to create a safe environment, for opening the drive. I have seen it work out, when no "special" tools where used and no special environment conditions were provided. But, perhaps they would have recovered more data, had the disks not been exposed to dust.

There are places you can send drives, to have this work done. I also don't know if they support older hardware.

Edited February 28, 2023 by awkduck

[justacruzr2]

"In some ways, COBOL is still a "Hot" language."

That system I created was totally written in COBOL.  I really like that language because it is so easy to get things done.  Something that might take 25 lines of "C" to accomplish can be done in COBOL with only 2 or 3 lines of code.  On the backside of that, "C" can give you control down to the system level whereas COBOL can't.  It's an application program language which was specifically created for business but can do more than just that.

"my mother worked for "Cray Research"

Now there's a computer!  It runs so fast it has to be cooled by liquid nitrogen.  Only have ever seen a picture of it.  I'm told there's one in southern Illinois at SIU.  One of my favorite things to do on the S390 was to go into the SDSF facility (System Display and Search Facility) and watch other peoples programs blow-up.  You could also see the execution time for programs.  Most ran in about .03 seconds.  Talk about fast.  TSO and ISPF were 2 other facilities availble for use.

"So did my cousin. I had the Tandy Color Computer II. We both got them as hand-me-downs. They were beyond their expiration date, at that time. I never actually learned the included Basic. I just copied text, from old magazines."

Was one of those mags "Compute"?  I did the same thing too but also wrote some of my own.

"If it was IDE, I'm not sure they even plugged it in."

It was.  I have taken a few apart over the years.  Ones that were just junk so it didn't matter what happened.  I did open that one up too, but I couldn't see how to remove the read/write arms without dragging them across the platens which would have caused further problems.  I do have the tools though.  I have read where each hard drive is calibrated at the factory and you just can't swap the platens from a bad drive to a good drive without swapping the circuit board too.  The calibration is set on the chip that's on that board and no 2 are the same.

That link you provided was interesting.  I had a program I found on the web that let you emulate the mainframe MVS environment on a PC, but my computer didn't meet the minimum requirements.  QWS3270 is a program that I do have on my system.  It turns the PC into an IBM3270 terminal so that you can communicate with the mainframe.  You should be able to find it out there as a free download if you're interested.

Should we take this conversation private?  We're getting off-topic but I do enjoy it.

[awkduck]

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Was one of those mags "Compute"?

Maybe? There was a variety, handed down to me, from my step-father.

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

The calibration is set on the chip that's on that board and no 2 are the same.

I didn't know that. It should've been an obvious assumption, on my part. I have only worked with the actuator assembly.

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Should we take this conversation private?

I would probably be kind.

 

[jaclaz]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:36 AM, justacruzr2 said:

 I did open that one up too, but I couldn't see how to remove the read/write arms without dragging them across the platens which would have caused further problems.  I do have the tools though.  I have read where each hard drive is calibrated at the factory and you just can't swap the platens from a bad drive to a good drive without swapping the circuit board too.  The calibration is set on the chip that's on that board and no 2 are the same.

#1 there are special tools (combs) that can be replaced by some medicine blister (foil pill container)  in some cases:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPZtJyrVPw

the real issue is with multi-platter disks, you need to keep them exactly as they are, as well there are special tools/clamps for that.

 

#2 Curiously enough, that applied to very old drives, then for several years boards were exchangeable, then again it returned the need to transplant the chip because of the so-called adaptive data (p-list and g-list ,mainly, but not only) or (with tools like the Pc-3000) it is possible to dump the contents of a chip and re-program the one on the new board.

jaclaz

[justacruzr2]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:28 AM, jaclaz said:

#1 there are special tools (combs) that can be replaced by some medicine blister (foil pill container)  in some cases:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPZtJyrVPw

the real issue is with multi-platter disks, you need to keep them exactly as they are, as well there are special tools/clamps for that.

 

#2 Curiously enough, that applied to very old drives, then for several years boards were exchangeable, then again it returned the need to transplant the chip because of the so-called adaptive data (p-list and g-list ,mainly, but not only) or (with tools like the Pc-3000) it is possible to dump the contents of a chip and re-program the one on the new board.

jaclaz

Sorry I missed your reply.  I guess you saw what I saw too.  I could cut the arms with a diagonal (while protecting the platen to get it out safely) but what could I do about putting it in the donor drive.  It has to be the same model drive and it would be the same situation.  However, even though we don't see it, there has to be a way to remove them.  They were put in at the factory and must be able to be removed(somehow).  I'll bet that's why it came back to me 2 days later.  They couldn't figure out how to remove them either.