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Windows 8.1 on USB not booting


edborg

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I see...
I now understand what you are aiming at!
It's an interesting way of using grub4dos for debugging purposes.
 
After completion of the first pre-test, I can confirm that:
1. Booting from first partition, inside the 128 GB limit, works (we already knew that)
2. Booting from second partiton, starting inside but exceeding the 128 limit, might work, but doesn't!
3. Booting from third partition, outside the 128 Gb limit, doesn't (as expected)
 
Attempts were made to boot both the partition and the OS bootloader.
Both attempts on hd0,1 failed, but with different error messages:
 
chainloader +1
boot
A disk read error occurred
Press Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart 
[perhaps indicating that there's no bootloader at sector1?]
 
chainloader /bootmgr
Fatal! Inconsistent data read from (0x80)314568838+2
Error 16: Inconsistent filesystem structure
[perhaps indicating that bootmgr can't be found?]
 
On hd0,2 the chainloader /bootmgr error was even different:
Will boot NTLDR from drive 0x80, partition 0x0 (hidden sectors=0x3f)
[perhaps looking in the wrong place?]
 
As the above seems to confirm the suspected LBA48 incompatibility I did some more research to answer your questions
 
1) is the computer BIOS fully LBA48 compatible on the USB bus?
2) is the actual HD external case an USB bridge fully compatible with LBA48?
 

1. I couldn't find a software to check BIOS LBA48 compatibility. If you know of one, please inform.

Actually my netbook's (ASUS eee) BIOS could well NOT be fully LBA48 compatibile as the netbook comes with small SSD storage capacity, and doesn't NEED to be.
2. I couldn't find out FOR SURE for the USB HD either, but I strongly guess it is, as there would be no point in making USB 3.0/2.0 HD with 1 TB storage like this one, that would not be LBA48 compliant. Moreover, the whole capacity is seen from OS (even XP SP2, which I've verified is  LBA48 compatible).
 
As you say that a specific 8.1 incompatibility cannot possibly yet be ruled out, your other tests must be done, but, as they are destructive, I cannot do them before I get additional extra space to temporarily backup valuable data that I have in the extended partition.
 
What I could do in the meantime is the following:
1. try deleting partition 3 WITHOUT deleting the extended partition and see what changes on partition 2
2. reformat partition 1 and install Win8.1 there and see whether it works.
Let me know if these tests do make sense. Otherwise I shall come back when i manage to do the backup and restart from scratch.
 
A last thought.
Working with not so large storage I have never encountered this LBA48 problem up to now. Even with my other external USB HD of 320 GB my primary partitions where I have installed Win7 and Win8 are all within the 128 GB limit. The extra space up to 320 GB never gave me addressing problems.
If this mean that the dreadful 128 GB limit only affects booting (if BIOS is not compliant) and once the OS is loaded addressing is correct, a quick workaround (at least for my needs) would be to always keep my threee booting partitions below 128 GB (say 40 GB each) and leave whatever extra space in logical partitions for storing data.
 
Sorry for the lenghty post.
 
regards
 
edborg
Edited by edborg
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There is another non-destructive test that you can make, you can still resize the second partition in such a way that it entirely resides within the 128 Gb. (if it is, as I believe a "fresh install", it should fit)

But before that you can simply backup the MBR (which you have already done) and hexedit it to remove 3rd and 4th partition entries (you can even use gruib4dos to zero them using the partnew command.

 

So, tests I would do:

  1. backup the MBR as is (already done)
  2. clear the 3rd and 4th partition entries
  3. try again the grub4dos commands on (hd0,1)
  4. if it still fails, try shrinking the second partition so that it is entirely below
  5. make a backup of this modified MBR
  6. try again the grub4dos commands on (hd0,1)

If the diagnosis of the USB stack of the BIOS being limited to 128 Gb is correct, you would have not any issues whatever as long as what you boot (or actually initiate to boot through the BIOS services) is within the limit and the space beyond won't give you a problem since it is accessed only through the booted OS (that surely has LBA48 compatibility).

 

Another thing you may try is using the latest-latest grub4dos (0.4.6a-2014-01-17) experimental version which has an "own" USB stack (which I believe being LBA48 compatible :unsure:) or try using Plop (that surely is LBA48 compatible).

 

JFYI:

 

 

 

Both attempts on hd0,1 failed, but with different error messages:
 
chainloader +1
boot
A disk read error occurred
Press Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart 
[perhaps indicating that there's no bootloader at sector1?]

 

the message is the actual text (that is displayed in case of error in executing the boot code) in the bootsector, so the bootsector is seemingly OK, only it errors out (and this would confirm the hypothesis that *something* beyond the LBA48 limit is *needed* but *somehow* it is not made accessible).

 

jaclaz 

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I have started with the quickest test, that is using the latest-latest grub4dos (0.4.6a-2014-01-17) experimental version, but nothing changed.

 

As for editing the MBR to clear entries, I do not know how to proceed.

I've examined the partition table with PTEDIT32 and with Hex Workshop, but I'm not sure how to edit it correctly, not even with the partnew grub4dos command, so I wouldn't risk to do something wrong.

I have zeroed all fields in partition table and rebooted to internat HD.

WinXP correctly saw two NTFS partitions plus unallocated space in external HD.

I then booted to external HD and checked

root (hd0,2)

Error 22: No such partition

(as expected)

Then repeated the grub4dos tests with no change whatsoever in results, both for

chainloader /bootmgr

and for

chainloader +1

boot

 

i have then restored the original MBR with original partition table.

 

 

I could try shrinking the second partition with Partition Magic and see what happens.

What about the other two actions I suggested? are they worth trying?

 

edborg

 

 

Edit: Partition Magic on the netbook doesn't recognize the three primary partitions and cannot shrink them!  :realmad: 

I will try with Easeus on another PC when I can.

Edited by edborg
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Well, the partnew command is rather straightforward.

The 4 (four) entries on (hdn) in grub4dos are:

  1. (hdn,0)
  2. (hdn,1)
  3. (hdn,2)
  4. (hdn,3)

 

The syntax to just clear a partition entry would then be, presuming that n = 0 (boot disk/first disk) and that you want to clear 3rd partition entry:

partnew (hd0,2) 0x00 0 0

 

BUT since Windows NT ignores partition entries with partition type 00 (partition ID 0x00), maybe it is easier to do:

parttype (hd0,2) 0x00

This corresponds to opening the MBR with a disk editor and changing byte at offset 0x1E2 from 07 to 00.

 

About grub4dos USB sypport, you have to explicitly initiate it, see:

http://www.easy2boot.com/news/v1-31-released/

i.e. in command line try issuing the:

usb --init

command.

 

jaclaz

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Well, the partnew command is rather straightforward.

The 4 (four) entries on (hdn) in grub4dos are:

  1. (hdn,0)
  2. (hdn,1)
  3. (hdn,2)
  4. (hdn,3)

 

The syntax to just clear a partition entry would then be, presuming that n = 0 (boot disk/first disk) and that you want to clear 3rd partition entry:

partnew (hd0,2) 0x00 0 0

 

BUT since Windows NT ignores partition entries with partition type 00 (partition ID 0x00), maybe it is easier to do:

parttype (hd0,2) 0x00

This corresponds to opening the MBR with a disk editor and changing byte at offset 0x1E2 from 07 to 00.

 

About grub4dos USB sypport, you have to explicitly initiate it, see:

http://www.easy2boot.com/news/v1-31-released/

i.e. in command line try issuing the:

usb --init

command.

 

jaclaz

So, it was enough to set partition type to zero, no need to zero all fields as I have done. Easier than i had thought!

 

Please note my previous edited post.

 

edborg

Edited by edborg
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No improvement with the latest grub4dos with USB LBA48 support.

On the contrary, after usb --init there's read disk error also for partition 2 (hd0,1), as it was for partition 3 (hd0,2).

edborg

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Possibly, more generally it is an issue with grub4dos (that version as said is experimental) and your chipset/whatever.

You could try adding plop to the equation.

Plop is chainladable form grub4dos, so you can still use it without "installing" anything. see here (read th einfo DO NOT use the installer):

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/140412-release-siginets-plop-usb-boot-manager-installer/

 

jaclaz

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Now I've also added Plop to grub4dos boot menu and can boot to Plop ... but, unless I study the whole documentation, I don't know what to do with it to further analyse my partitions' geometry....

edborg

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The show goes on.....

 

LAST ATTEMPT BEFORE REBUILDING THE WHOLE USB HD FROM SCRATCH

 

1. Shrinked partition 2 to 25 GB with Easeus Partition Master (Partition Magic was incompatible!)

2. Backed up MBR with HDHacker

3. Booted to active partition 1 on USB HD (OK, as before)

4. Loaded grub4dos and repeated tests

5. root [enter] geometry (same geometry errors)

6. root (hd0,1) [enter] chainloader +1 [enter] boot [enter] (OK!!!)

7. This was first boot to Win8.1 after install; installation continued as hoped

8. Installation failed later with "Windows Setup: Windows could not update computer's boot configuration. Installation cannot proceed" (perhaps lack of space? But at least the LBA48 issue was confirmed, and solved!)

 

Next step is repartition USB HD from scratch with all three primary partitions below 128 GB (say 40 GB each) and extra space on logical volumes, and go back to see whether there are other issues specific to Win8.1

 

edborg

 

Just FYI it doesn't boot to chainloader /bootmgr though

Edited by edborg
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Just FYI it doesn't boot to chainloader /bootmgr though

 

It is possible :unsure: that if you applied a .wim and then run the bcdboot command (or equivalent), the BOOTMGR is (combined with *something* else) "out of reach", cannot say, however the issue is definitely the LBA48 one.

Still something doesn't sound right, Steve6375 just posted about latest grub4dos being wotrking on a eeePC 904 (is it not similar to your hardware?):

http://reboot.pro/topic/19883-improve-grub4dos-boot-speeds-by-using-the-046-usb-driver/

 

Anyway, surely the main issue was the LBA48 addresses, and if you rebuild everything should work fine, :)

 

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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...............

 

Anyway, surely the main issue was the LBA48 addresses, and if you rebuild everything should work fine, :)

 

jaclaz

 

That was my conclusion, too.

Thanks to your great help (and perhaps to my perseverance as well) I've learned a lot of things and tools.  :)

 

Thank you,

 

edborg

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Another (hopefully last) doubt.

 

As I've checked that Easeus Partition Master is capable to shrink my partitions without errors, would it be possible to fully fix geometry by shrinking all primary partitions moving them all below the 128 GB limit, without repartitioning the whole USB HD from scratch?

 

That would save me the trouble to borrow extra space on another HD (that I don't have right now) to temporarily backup large valuable data in the logical volumes before deleting them and repartitioning.

 

One approach could be ... try and see, but hopefully you have a better answer ready.  :yes:

 

Thanks,

 

edborg

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Cannot say specifically about Easeus, but there are no theoretical problems with the procedure.

 

Remember (see the old thread on reboot.pro) that if you want to (senselessly continue to) use XP disk manager to change the active status of the primary partitions you NEED to keep the partitions Cylinder aligned.

 

But, still you are playing with fire. :ph34r:

 

NO "valuable" data should EVER exist without a backup of it (this independently from fiddling with partition managers), better if TWO backups.

 

 If you insist on working with data that exist on only one media before or later you will lose it (for *whatever* failure in software or hardware or PEBCAK :w00t:) :(.

 

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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Cannot say specifically about Easeus, but there are no theoretical problems with the procedure.

 

Done it!

The partiton table seems OK, but there are still errors beyond.

Are these relevant and a risk of losing data in future or, having not to do with booting, can they be ignored?

 

geometry

Partition num: 0, active, Filesystem type is ntfs, partition type 0x07

Partition num: 1, Filesystem type is ntfs, partition type 0x07

Partition num: 2, Filesystem type is ntfs, partition type 0x07

Partition num: 4, Filesystem type is ntfs, partition type 0x07

 

Fatal! Inconsistent data read from (0x80)629137426+127

Fatal! Inconsistent data read from (0x80)629137530+1

 

 Why 0, 1, 2, 4?  :huh: 

 

Remember (see the old thread on reboot.pro) that if you want to (senselessly continue to) use XP disk manager to change the active status of the primary partitions you NEED to keep the partitions Cylinder aligned.

 

This is an important matter. 

I don't know how this can be done (I mean keeping partitions cylinder aligned).

If possible I would like to find a safe (but quick) alternative to change active partition, rather than keeping always the same partition active and using a boot manager to load different OSes.

In fact I do prefer keep booting  partitions completely separate, possibly even hidden one to another and only share data on logical partitions.

I wouldn't use Win7 nor Win8 Disk Manager, as I tend not to work from those OSes normally, a hex editor is not so convenient for quick changes, and PQBoot from Power Quest that I've used in the past may have incompatibility problems with recent OSes. Perhaps Beeblebrox or PTedit32 would do.

 

Let me re-read attentively the old thread to refresh in detail what had been ascertained.

I may raise other questions afterwords  :yes:

 

But, still you are playing with fire. :ph34r:

 

NO "valuable" data should EVER exist without a backup of it (this independently from fiddling with partition managers), better if TWO backups.

 

Actually there are not so "valuable" data.

No personal data that couldn't be recreated. These are constantly backed up amongst computers.

There are mainly files re-downloadable and/or already present on PCs, or large media that I wouldn't duplicate. So, nothing really serious if they get lost.

Still, I wouldn't want to lose them just because I have to adjust partitions.

 

 If you insist on working with data that exist on only one media before or later you will lose it (for *whatever* failure in software or hardware or PEBCAK  :w00t::(.

 

Ah, that's why Win8 has been developed for touch screens: to avoid PEBCAK  :puke:  ;) 

 

 

jaclaz

Edited by edborg
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Why 0, 1, 2, 4?

 

 

Grub4dos numbers partitions as follows:

1st partition (meaning Primary partition in first "slot" in partition table) (hdn, 0)

2nd partition (meaning Primary partition in second "slot" in partition table) (hdn, 1)

3rd partition (meaning Primary partition in third "slot" in partition table) (hdn, 2)

4th partition (meaning Primary partition in fourth "slot" in partition table) (hdn, 3)

 

Any Extended partition (NO matter in which slot in partition table is) is NOT numbered (as a matter of fact it is not a "real partition/volume", it is a container for volumes).

 

The volumes inside extended partitions are numbered (hdn,4), (hdn,5) ... etc. following their order in the EMBR's chain.

 

If you prefer, in a MBR you can have either max 4 primary partitions or max 3 primaries and one Extended, the Primaries (please read as "volumes" are numbered 0,1,2,3 according to the entry they occupy in the MBR, the Extended (which is not a "volume) will NOT be numbered and the first volume in Extended will always be #4 (no matter how many primary partitions are in th epartition table)

 

When you run the geometry command grub4dos tries to read (and verify consistency) of all volumes, so (because of the LBA28/48 issue) it will analyze (without errors) *anything* below the limit and throw an error about *anything* (i.e. including logical volumes inside extended) beyond that limit.

 

jaclaz

 

 

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