Will USB work on a WinFWG 3.11 PC?

[JorgeA]

Hello,

I just had a possibly crazy idea. My Windows for Workgroups 3.11 tower PC has available ISA and PCI expansion slots. Is it possible to install one of these puppies in the machine, obtain a DOS USB driver, integrate the driver into the bootup process -- and get to use these USB ports on that ancient machine?

The motivation for this idea is that I'd like to run an alternative OS off a small USB flash drive, rather than give up any part of the PC's already severely limited (2.1GB) hard-drive space for another OS. Nor do I want to uninstall WFWG. I'm figuring if I can set up AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS to use the USB driver and then to look to the USB flash drive after the floppy, then this might just work.

Please let me know if the first part of this (first paragraph) is doable, and separately whether the second part (second paragraph) is doable.

Thanks a bunch.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

Please let me know if the first part of this (first paragraph) is doable, and separately whether the second part (second paragraph) is doable.

First paragraph is doable.

Since you will boot FROM the USB bus, you will need NOT a "USB DOS driver", but rather an "USB boot manager/BIOS extension" (please read as "PLoP").

Will it work on that machine?

Who knows?

jaclaz

[jds]

Yes, the first part is basically how I used USB Flash drives on W95. Worked OK, but very extensive data transfers would sometimes cause lock-ups.

The second part depends on what you mean by OS. You basically boot MS-DOS 7.XX then bootstrap something else, like the MSW GUI. However, I've not tried using USB drivers in MS-DOS 6.2X. I can tell you they don't work with DR-DOS 6, although they do with DR-DOS 7. So your starting point is some recent version of DOS, from there you could boot Linux, maybe.

Joe.

[JorgeA]

Please let me know if the first part of this (first paragraph) is doable, and separately whether the second part (second paragraph) is doable.

First paragraph is doable.

Since you will boot FROM the USB bus, you will need NOT a "USB DOS driver", but rather an "USB boot manager/BIOS extension" (please read as "PLoP").

Will it work on that machine?

Who knows?

jaclaz

Thanks, jaclaz!

If it helps to clarify the scenario, the machine would be booting into the floppy disk (A:) which would have a batch file pointing to the USB flash drive. Maybe it works differently with USB, but currently I have a floppy that loads MS-DOS and then directs the system to the hard drive C: to load Windows. The idea of the new setup would be to put in a different floppy to direct the system to drive G: (or whatever) and load the alternative OS. (I don't have to put any floppy in, of course, and then the machine boots straight into C:.)

In the meantime, I'll start looking into PLoP. But it's a fairly primitive BIOS (1994/95), so I'd be surprised if it could do anything as fancy as that.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Yes, the first part is basically how I used USB Flash drives on W95. Worked OK, but very extensive data transfers would sometimes cause lock-ups.

The second part depends on what you mean by OS. You basically boot MS-DOS 7.XX then bootstrap something else, like the MSW GUI. However, I've not tried using USB drivers in MS-DOS 6.2X. I can tell you they don't work with DR-DOS 6, although they do with DR-DOS 7. So your starting point is some recent version of DOS, from there you could boot Linux, maybe.

Joe.

Joe,

Thank you for the info. That PC does have MS-DOS 6.20, so I guess I'd have to try it and see what happens. On the other hand, there's nothing to stop me from popping in a DOS 7 boot diskette (from my Win98 PC) to see what happens.

And Linux would be one possible "alternative OS" I'm thinking of. I've already tested loading some very tiny versions of Linux that run off a floppy or in RAM, but I'd like to put it on something that's bigger and more permanent (like a flash drive) without disturbing the existing Windows installation. Another alternative OS would be Windows 95... if I could find a retail copy somewhere.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

It looks like PLoP would not do what I'm looking for -- see this link. My idea is to run everything (OS and a data-producing program or two) off the USB pen drive, but PLoP doesn't have any routines to write to that drive.

OTOH --

@jds: I did boot the old PC with a Win98 (DOS 7) floppy, so some progress was made on that end.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

jaclaz,

It looks like PLoP would not do what I'm looking for -- see this link. My idea is to run everything (OS and a data-producing program or two) off the USB pen drive, but PLoP doesn't have any routines to write to that drive.

Well, you are not planning to run DOS from the USB drive if I got it right.

jaclaz

[jds]

And Linux would be one possible "alternative OS" I'm thinking of. I've already tested loading some very tiny versions of Linux that run off a floppy or in RAM, but I'd like to put it on something that's bigger and more permanent (like a flash drive) without disturbing the existing Windows installation. Another alternative OS would be Windows 95... if I could find a retail copy somewhere.

The thought I had was that it may be possible to load the USB drivers, then from DOS/MSW, bootstrap a suitable Linux kernel image with the help of 'loadlin' version 1.6c (or a later version, if such exists). A suitable kernel image would be one with inbuilt support for USB (you'll need to do some research on this). When I used to play around with Linux some time back (no time for such things at the moment, unfortunately), this is the command (via a batch file) that would do the trick:

f:\linux\loadlin f:\linux\mandrake\vmlinuz root=/dev/hdb4 ro %1

(I think the 'root' option would need to point to your USB drive, in whatever form this would/will enumerate in Linux.)

Good luck.

Joe.

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

It looks like PLoP would not do what I'm looking for -- see this link. My idea is to run everything (OS and a data-producing program or two) off the USB pen drive, but PLoP doesn't have any routines to write to that drive.

Well, you are not planning to run DOS from the USB drive if I got it right.

jaclaz

jaclaz,

Yes and no.

The idea is to run Windows 95 (Linux is the other track that I'm pursuing) off the USB flash drive. I just placed an order for a "retail version" of Win95, 1 copy left. (We'll see if (a) it arrives, and (b ) it's a legitimate and working copy.) This version is an "upgrade" which means I would be installing WFWG3.11 on the flash drive first, and then Win95 on top of it. Now unless I've misunderstood this for 15 years, both of these editions of Windows were basically GUIs layered over the "real" operating system, which is DOS. That's why my answer is "yes and no."

So I guess the bottom line is -- if I use this PLoP (and I admit that I'm still fuzzy as to its purpose), will I be able to write data to the flash drive during normal operation of the OS I would install on it?

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

And Linux would be one possible "alternative OS" I'm thinking of. I've already tested loading some very tiny versions of Linux that run off a floppy or in RAM, but I'd like to put it on something that's bigger and more permanent (like a flash drive) without disturbing the existing Windows installation. Another alternative OS would be Windows 95... if I could find a retail copy somewhere.

The thought I had was that it may be possible to load the USB drivers, then from DOS/MSW, bootstrap a suitable Linux kernel image with the help of 'loadlin' version 1.6c (or a later version, if such exists). A suitable kernel image would be one with inbuilt support for USB (you'll need to do some research on this). When I used to play around with Linux some time back (no time for such things at the moment, unfortunately), this is the command (via a batch file) that would do the trick:

f:\linux\loadlin f:\linux\mandrake\vmlinuz root=/dev/hdb4 ro %1

(I think the 'root' option would need to point to your USB drive, in whatever form this would/will enumerate in Linux.)

Good luck.

Joe.

Joe,

That idea sounds very attractive! I think it would work. And thanks for the batch-file command.

If I can't get the Win95 that I just ordered to work off the flash drive, this is the way I'll go.

Much appreciated.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

So I guess the bottom line is -- if I use this PLoP (and I admit that I'm still fuzzy as to its purpose), will I be able to write data to the flash drive during normal operation of the OS I would install on it?

And the answer depends on the actual OS you want to run from it, to how actually PLOP behaves with your hardware and existing BIOS, how this "interacts" with the add-on card, how the actual OS sees it and probably a few other variables....

Even Win95A vs. Win95B vs. Win95C open way to different situations.

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

So I guess the bottom line is -- if I use this PLoP (and I admit that I'm still fuzzy as to its purpose), will I be able to write data to the flash drive during normal operation of the OS I would install on it?

And the answer depends on the actual OS you want to run from it, to how actually PLOP behaves with your hardware and existing BIOS, how this "interacts" with the add-on card, how the actual OS sees it and probably a few other variables....

Even Win95A vs. Win95B vs. Win95C open way to different situations.

jaclaz

jaclaz,

There's a whole lot of variables to juggle there! I guess the best approach now is to try something and see what happens, then make adjustments as needed.

I'll wait for this Win95 package to arrive, try it, and report back. If I can't get that to work in any way, shape or form (with or without PLoP), "Plan B" is Linux.

Thanks for the insights. I'll keep you posted.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Please let me know if the first part of this (first paragraph) is doable, and separately whether the second part (second paragraph) is doable.

First paragraph is doable.

Since you will boot FROM the USB bus, you will need NOT a "USB DOS driver", but rather an "USB boot manager/BIOS extension" (please read as "PLoP").

Will it work on that machine?

Who knows?

jaclaz

Well, I'm running into a possible technical snag.

It turns out that the USB card I bought (it's the same one I linked to before) is made to PCI 2.2 specifications, whereas the PCI slots in that old PC are PCI 2.0.

I spent a couple of hours searching around the Web for the answer to the question -- will a PCI 2.2 card work in a PCI 2.0 slot? (That's "conventional" PCI, not PCI Express.) Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places or using the right search terms, but I couldn't find anything definite one way or the other. I'm suspecting that the answer would be No. Would you (or jds) happen to know?

The Windows 95 package hasn't arrived yet, but it may be moot by the time it arrives (if ever).

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

Well, I'm running into a possible technical snag.

It turns out that the USB card I bought (it's the same one I linked to before) is made to PCI 2.2 specifications, whereas the PCI slots in that old PC are PCI 2.0.

I spent a couple of hours searching around the Web for the answer to the question -- will a PCI 2.2 card work in a PCI 2.0 slot? (That's "conventional" PCI, not PCI Express.) Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places or using the right search terms, but I couldn't find anything definite one way or the other. I'm suspecting that the answer would be No. Would you (or jds) happen to know?

Hmmm, maybe you are overcautious.

http://en.kioskea.net/faq/781-what-is-pci

Basically you are putting a card that supports speeds of 66 Mhz Mhz on a motherboard that has a clock at 33 Mhz.

http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/PCI_Family_History.pdf

http://en.kioskea.net/contents/pc/pci.php3

Most (but not all) cards can work at a lower then spec clock, "normally" there is no problem, as long as they "fit" in the slot (3.3V vs. 5 V vs. "universal" slot), compare with:

http://www.roalan.com/Report%20pci%202.3%20030206d1%20ro.pdf

As said previously, YMMV

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

Well, I'm running into a possible technical snag.

It turns out that the USB card I bought (it's the same one I linked to before) is made to PCI 2.2 specifications, whereas the PCI slots in that old PC are PCI 2.0.

I spent a couple of hours searching around the Web for the answer to the question -- will a PCI 2.2 card work in a PCI 2.0 slot? (That's "conventional" PCI, not PCI Express.) Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places or using the right search terms, but I couldn't find anything definite one way or the other. I'm suspecting that the answer would be No. Would you (or jds) happen to know?

Hmmm, maybe you are overcautious.

http://en.kioskea.net/faq/781-what-is-pci

Basically you are putting a card that supports speeds of 66 Mhz Mhz on a motherboard that has a clock at 33 Mhz.

http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/PCI_Family_History.pdf

http://en.kioskea.net/contents/pc/pci.php3

Most (but not all) cards can work at a lower then spec clock, "normally" there is no problem, as long as they "fit" in the slot (3.3V vs. 5 V vs. "universal" slot), compare with:

http://www.roalan.com/Report%20pci%202.3%20030206d1%20ro.pdf

As said previously, YMMV

jaclaz

Thanks for the links, jaclaz, they're very informative.

Sorry, I forgot to say in my post that I did put the USB card in the PCI slot and then tried to get the computer to recognize it. Windows for Workgroups 3.11 doesn't know anything about it, and I wouldn't be using it in that OS anyway, so I booted the machine with the same Win98SE floppy that I used last year to reinstall Win98SE on my little laptop. It includes the files usbaspi1.sys and di1000dd.sys, which enable DOS 7.1 to read a USB stick with the .CAB files.

The process gets as far as loading the USB driver , but then reports that it could not identify the device, and hangs with a blinking cursor. (I tried to boot both with and without a USB stick already in place.)

[EDIT: The sequence of error messages is as follows. Aafter usbaspi.sys loads with the /v and /w switches, it waits for me to plug in the USB stick with the following text:

Connect the target device to USB port.

Press [ENTER] to continue

Then the following error message appears:

ERROR: PCI UHCI/OHCI/EHCI USB Host Controller not found.

Then di1000dd.sys loads but gives the following error:

Available ID = Not found installable device

END OF EDIT]

Next I tried adding the Win98 drivers for the USB card to the CONFIG.SYS file on the floppy. The result was even worse, with (depending on the order in which I placed the files) black screens, pixelation, or even total unresponsiveness to the point where not even CTRL-ALT-DEL worked and I'd have to power cycle. That's why I thought that maybe it had something to do with the PCI 2.0 vs. 2.2 -- I was looking for possible causes for the failure.

So at this point I'm not sure if it's because I'm doing something wrong (putting in the wrong driver files, or placing them in the wrong order) or because the card will simply never work in that PC. FWIW the BIOS is so old that it has zero awareness of USB -- there's not even an option to enable "Legacy USB" -- although I've read somewhere that this should not be an obstacle to using USB off a PCI card.

Any ideas?

--JorgeA

Edited August 16, 2011 by JorgeA