BudwS
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The PC with 5 running OSs got updated by Windows Update, the Win 10 version, a few days ago. Since then the PC would not boot. Restore would not bring it back. Startup repair would not bring it back. Hardware check showed all the hardware working correctly. Finally, re-installed Win 7 Pro and left the old OSs on the hard drive. The installed Windows 10 count is now down by 2. Do the stats counters only count up or do they count down for Win 10 when the Win 10 lights go out? The crap meter went up by 2. I think it's time for a vacation.
Just to balance out working software, the Apple OS X 10.7 (Lion) count went up by 1. 10-year old hardware still running just fine, thank you.
And the real joke is that the DOD wants to run on Windows 10. That's a real load of crap.
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Much as I dislike Win 10, the latest updates seemed to go in smoothly here. I'd really start looking hard at the environment in which you're running Win 10, BudwS.
~~~~~~~FYI, I downloaded the file list from the KB article... 630 files are listed with a 16-January date (10586.71)! Note that all those don't go into any one system, but by gosh these are no small updates!
-Noel
Thanks again for another view of Win 10. I've come to understand that Win 10 works OK on a new PC. You're probably right on about the environment that my PC presents. The external environment may present an issue to Win 10 as well. It may not like to run in the shed. For now Win 10 10586.71 is running.
I decided to build a second Win 10 system on the VM VirtualBox. One system will run released Win 10 and the new one will run insider Win 10. Just a little more excitement with the Win 10 learning curve as well as the VirtualBox learning curve. That will make 4 operating systems running on the PC.
Bud
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OS Build 10586.71
Just when I was starting to think good thoughts about Windows 10, Tuesday occurred. It took less than 2 days to get Win 10 back up. The strange thing is that the system stayed up for the update and the restart!!!??? The collapse of the system occurred when I uninstalled Twitter. The "Stall" stopped the system in its tracks. Oh well, maybe it will run until the next "Tuesday."
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"So, if you're having crash/hang problems, you should probably try to seek out the best drivers you can, and just get used to your system not being as stable as Windows has been in past years. Backups have always been important, and they are now more than ever.
That being said, the OS itself, without much add-on software and with a lot of its own unneeded components specifically disabled or removed, lightly used, DOES seem to be pretty stable for me...
-Noel"
Thanks for the path to the Reliability Monitor. Your system is very stable compared to mine. In a similar time frame, my system had 15 critical events. The blue line ranged between 1 and 5. Of the 15 events, 8 were the Stall which required the manual power down to regain control. Those events showed no system reason, only the power down event. You may have indicated in prior posts that application updates were occurring that were not logged as updates under windows update. The information events under Reliability Monitor supplied that record. The other 7 critical events showed various system services that stopped. None were driver related that I could see. I did go back into settings and prune a few more windows software items that I missed earlier. I wonder about VirtualBox as well with its interaction with the guest Windows 10?
-Bud
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With the latest Stall of Windows 10, a question came to mind. Is it possible that programmers or code generating programs have set up instructions that branch on self? I was of the understanding that good software was interrupt driven. Interrupts make sure that no branch on self can occur that could establish a "Stall" in the software. I've noticed that Windows 10 does not respond to the Cnt-Alt-Del key combination. I find it hard to believe but the "Stall" looks like a no-interrupt software loop. Please, tell me that it can not happen in Windows 10. I know there are a lot of hardware/software/programmer people in this forum. I guess that I just need a little reassurance that the deck is really full.
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No, I have not, because I already have Universal Windows 7 installation media that I reload computers with, and the Microsoft Windows 7 Media Creation tool only accepts Retail keys, not OEM keys. OEM licenses are by far more popular, while the Retail license is geared towards gamers and other enthusiasts who need the ability to transfer their license from PC to PC as they upgrade parts and equipment.
The ISOs themselves are not keyed. In fact, apart from the x86/x64 distinction, they are practically the same. If you have any Windows 7 disc, flash drive, or ISO, you can create a Universal disc by copying its contents, minus the "ei.cfg" file, to the new media. The "ei.cfg" file tells Setup what edition of Windows 7 to install. If you remove that file, it will ask which edition to install during setup, thus the Universal disc.
Of course, although the Windows installation media is not keyed, you will need a valid license key to install, and you will need to install the edition of Windows 7 (Home Premium, Professional, Ultimate) matching your license key, or it won't activate. Furthermore, a Retail disc won't accept an OEM key during setup. If that's what you have, leave the product key field blank during setup, and use phone activation once your PC is up and running.
Thank you. I'll use this information.
However, I was wondering if MS was updating the Win 7 iso so that after the installation it would not require extensive updates. I've been very protective of Win 7 Keys. After replacing hard drives that have failed with no backup, rebuilding Win 7 takes a long time with an original DVD. Perhaps it is time to learn how to create an Image DVD for recovery short of cloning.
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Has anyone downloaded Windows 7 iso using Microsoft Media Creation Tool to return to Win 7 from Win 10? If so, how did it work? Did your original Win 7 Key get the iso activated? Just checking options.
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I'm beginning to think that OS Build 10586.63 may be approaching stability. 4 days up and counting.
Old PCs going from Win 7 to Win 10 (10586.63) this week have done so cleanly. Might this be a trend?
Just when I thought a trend was starting, a power outage took the PC down. Instability from another direction.
Updated VirtualBox and Guest additions to 5.0.14. Win 10 seemed OK so did a Java update. Win 10 stalled!? Hard power down and back up to get control again. Got Java updated. Did a Win 10 restart just to clean up the software. Up time meter is back to a few hours. Stability index slid back down a ways. About like the stock market.
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I'm beginning to think that OS Build 10586.63 may be approaching stability. 4 days up and counting.
Old PCs going from Win 7 to Win 10 (10586.63) this week have done so cleanly. Might this be a trend?
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That's key, IMHO. Once lost, trust is very hard to win back.
A corollary to that, from Microsoft's perspective:
Trust, once lost, means we no longer have to act in a trustworthy way, and that opens up all KINDS of possibilities.
-Noel
In spite of those who choose to be untrustworthy, you still have the option to choose trustworthy! You are not obligated to blindly follow the untrustworthy.
In spite of the negative blasted out by media, I look around our world and I see the majority of people still help others in need, give the helping hand, and don't worship gold.
Just look at the people in these forums who go way out of their way to help others with computer problems for free.
Just remember, there are way more computer users than computer makers. The power is in the people.
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I imagine that if there are any differences at all that are important to drivers, that many older systems' drivers are faulty. Computer makers aren't out there updating drivers for all their old computers.
FYI, I haven't seen any problems with 10586.63 at all after the cumulative update. My test VM is up 2 days 16 hours with it so far.
Regarding validity... Seems to me that if a user puts Win 10 on an older computer that was working fine with, say, Win 7, then it gets flaky, Microsoft wins. The user sooner or later gets fed up and just replaces it with... You guessed it, something new running Win 10. Microsoft's in the hardware business now... Anyone else see the conflict of interest there?
-Noel
I think that my latest Stall was caused by the 10586.63 update stepping on the Oracle VM VirtualBox Guest Additions. Just re-installed the Guest Additions and started the time-up meter.
Regarding conflict of interest: Our Apple OS X just runs. However, Apple makes it's own hardware. My theory is that MS wants to do the same thing. However, they may want all there existing customers to buy the new hardware/software combination when their old PC quits. Saw a customer do this last week. A few others just switch.
And the next trend: A relative just bought a new iPhone and told me that they don't need a computer, they're just going to use the iPhone! It does all they need a computer to do!
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Apple OS X just keeps on running but they make their own hardware. I wonder if that's where Microsoft got the idea? A lot of other PC hardware makers are not going to like that.
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After turning off all background programs under 10586.36, the Win 10 system was into its 6th day of running with no stalls. Then the 10586.63 update occurred and the system stalled at the restart of the update. The Win 10 system did the update but has stalled 2 times since. Latest change to test Win 10 was to turn off Fast Startup in BIOS because the Fast Startup switch doesn't show up in the Win 10 software as it does on some Win 10 systems? Time up meter is back to 2 a couple of hours.
In another forum, it was implied that older hardware can not run Windows 10 even if Microsoft is trying to update an awful lot of the old PCs. Maybe there is some validity to that premise?
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I became a convert to "100% Up" systems when mainframes became virtual machines. A single Host with several Guests. The Guests were several individual customers operating systems that they controled. A single program failing anywhere had better not crash the total system! The system stayed up indefinitely or until scheduled maintenance. That simple concept is what I expect of today's small computers. So, the first test for Windows 10 was does it pass the "100% Up" test? In the many months of testing, it hasn't come close to passing. Even sitting idle, it hasn't passed!
I admit, some new hardware and software combinations are coming closer to the "100% Up" requirement.
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Goals:
1. Win 10 installs cleanly. That is, after the install, it just runs without stalling, crashing or parts don't work.
2. If Win 10 is just in idle, it runs as long as there is power on the PC.
3. If Win 10 software problems occur, a correction update/patch will be issued with great haste, not on a 4 month cycle.
4. A purchasable Win 10 DVD will be available with the activating Key included at stores where PCs are sold.
Move forward:
1. Only if the above criteria are met, will a Win 10 production PC be considered. So far, none of the above goals have been reliably met. So no move forward. Win 10 is for fun only. The daily chuckle.
2. Example for above (2.): After about 3 days, Win 10 sitting idle with no mouse clicks or keyboard keys pressed, Win 10 stalls. When it stalls, no mouse click or keyboard key pressed is acted on and responded to by the Win 10 software. A manual power off is required to reboot Win 10. It's good for another 3 days after that. Doing a WU gets the message "Up to date." I guess that means to wait 4 months for an update?
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Microsoft has proven to be a determined, wealthy adversary, where once they were an attractive partner ...
[/END OF AN ERA]
... They've been planning all this for a while. It's entirely possible everything they need to push us around is already installed on our systems! ...
I'm on the watch for prepositioned martian tripods emerging unexpectedly from the depths of W7. No contacts prior to about May 2015, thus far.
But as that's what I'd have done if I were the martians, I keep a vigilant watch.
"vigilant watch"
TELVM,
I thought my Microsoft Office:Mac 2011 was shilded in an "Apple Shell." Oh, the sneaks got to it right past my trusting guard. Even threatened to take down the Apple OS. Time Machine brought the OS back but it took 2 days of research to get MS Office:Mac operational. I think Office:Mac is one of the best products from MS. However, now "Martian Watch" has been added to the vigilant watch. A great way to end this year. The new year (2016) should prove to be exciting with politics, religion and OS software upgrades. A good year for vigilance all around. Love will be busy in 2016. Smiles all around.
Bud
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I wonder if anyone besides us sees that as scary.
Did you notice any settings being reverted when that update (which created Windows.old) was installed?
-Noel
I didn't do any specific checking. However, the impression that I got was that the update did a "Don't save any data or settings" upgrade!!!??? and only use what I give you!? and don't turn anything off that I set on. However, Classic Shell was gone.
Win 10 has been so self destructive that I only hope for a Win 10 that has a shelf life of over 3 days. So far, only if the suckle is at the MS online logon does life exist beyond 3 days.
Bud
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There are also such things as RAID configurations that offer redundancy from failure.
The most redundant RAID system that i've experienced is MIrrored. However, with Win 10 I have become concerned about the operating system self destructing as has happened several times. In that case, both mirrors would be done in. Mirrored RAID works great for hardware failures.
Your point of a Win 10 clone is well taken. I've only cloned XP thru Win 7 systems, HDD to HDD and HDD to SSD. BIOS software did scan the hardware change and modified the BIOS configuration but with minimal time needed (seconds or less). The clonig itself takes time, but much less than recovery from a complete rebuild or a backup. I admit that I've not cloned a RAID system. So new projects to try, (1) Clone a Win 10 system and (2) clone a RAID system.
The only clone issue was when an SSD SATA clone was an S3 interface and the SATA controller was an S1 interface (it was like 2 people using different languages trying to comunicate). However that SSD clone booted on a USB adaptor with no problem.
Oh, the challenges of Win 10 open up new vistas. Who knows, soon someone may land a rocket booster standing upright! We live in a time of mind-stretch.
Bud
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I agree with you. Not all windows updates to the same OS Build are identical. Too many factors, hardware and software-wise, change the outcome of the final product. The same update from different locations may not be identical as well.
Bud
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It's quite possible that backups are such a staple among the technically educated that they go without saying in a place like this.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear when I used the word clone. I was speaking of a bootable clone of the HHD or SSD that was identical, bit for bit data-wise. Not many techs do that as a matter of course. If a HDD or SSD had a hard failure or massive data corruption, simply removing the failed drive and replacing it with the bootable clone would save hours or days of recovery time.
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In those charts, it looks like OS X went up a little over 1/4 %. Win 10 seems to be helping Apple as well.
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The "last update" you spoke of... Would that be the Windows 10 build 10586 install?
I ask because none of the updates for me SINCE 10586.0 so far have created a Windows.old folder.
The 10586.0 "in-place upgrade" is a full operating system installation, which not only installs a whole new build, but also resets many preferences and re-installs many things you might have chosen to remove. I even found and documented, for example, that quite a number of privacy settings I had made were reverted by that 10586 in-place upgrade.
Now here's the kicker: Microsoft intends to release one of these in-place upgrades every 4 months. Let that sink in. Some of the piles are thus bigger than others.
-Noel
The Windows.old file showed up when the OS Build changed to 10586.36. That was the first time that I saw this situation occur. Thanks for clarifying the virtual machine consideration.
Your right, 4 months is a long time to wait to get a new set of smiles.
MS must have hired those GCOS8 operating system programmers. A lot of them got Rif'ed awhile back.
Bud
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Why not just clone your backup copy to an HDD or an SSD? If your production copy gets update trashed, you use your clone to recover. Your clone should also have all the updates you want for your comfort level. I suppose it's so simple that there must be an obvious flaw. However, it seems to work just fine for me.
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There have also been some news stories that hint that the antitrust boogie man has woken up from a long sleep. Boogie man is a rich adversary as well.
Another non-tech customer told me today that they paid someone to update their PC. She spoke of unreliability, unstableness and inconsistant operation. They are thinking of paying the tech person to put them back to their original operating software. She wasn't smiling about the challenges like I do.
Noel, I suppose that running on a virtual machine might be considered tweaking as well?
The last update created a windows.old file. That doesn't happen on an normal update, does it? Just trying to sort the crap into nice piles.
Bud
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Official - Windows 10 Worst Crap Ever!
in Windows 10
Posted
I'm thinking of doing a dual boot of Win10 on the Apple computer. It would really tickle me if Win 10 ran stable on the Apple. After a dusting of crap with the Win 10 crash, it's time to get up and back on the crapola again. After the vacation.