Right BIOS for Media Center?

[JorgeA]

Hello,

I'm considering setting up a PC with Windows Vista Media Center to replace the cable company's DVR, but before I can proceed there are some important questions that I hope you will be able to help me with.

Because we would not be getting rid of cable entirely, we would need to buy (among other things) a Digital Cable Tuner to receive the non-broadcast channels. (Where we live, Clear QAM for channels such as CNBC and Lifetime is now a thing of the past, so we'd also need CableCARDs.) The thing is, Microsoft's guide, "Windows Vista Inside Out," states clearly on page 811 that, in order to be able to use a DCT:

"The PC must have a BIOS that has support for a DCT. As of this writing ['early 2008,' they say in another place], the only way to purchase a PC with this support is to buy a new PC from a vendor that has signed an agreement with CableLabs, the technical trade association that represents the cable-TV industry in North America."

So the first question is: Other than contacting my PC's manufacturer (Hewlett-Packard), is there any way for me to tell whether my current machine (Pavilion a6512p, Vista Home Premium, purchased 12/08) has a BIOS that supports DCT?

Here's the second question. The Microsoft guide also says that:

"The operating system must be Windows Vista Home Premium or Ultimate with Digital Cable Support...."

There seems to be a comma or two missing there somewhere, and the distinction is not trivial. Do they mean that the OS "must be Vista Home Premium, or [Vista] Ultimate with Digital Cable Support"? This would mean that Home Premium comes with this feature built-in, but if you have Ultimate you need to make sure that you have or get it. Or do they mean that the OS "must be Vista Home Premium, or Ultimate, with Digital Cable Support"? This one would mean that no matter which of those two versions of Vista you have, you need to get or activate Digital Cable Support separately.

The third question is: How current is this information from that MS manual? Can we assume that all new PCs since "X" date do come with the right kind of BIOS, or do we still need to ask the manufacturer? I have a number of Vista guides, and Microsoft's is the only one to warn that the BIOS might be a problem for the DCTs.

Thanks very much for any guidance you might offer. The whole issue is kind of fuzzy in my mind, so please ask for more details if I need to clarify anything there.

--JorgeA

[cluberti]

1. Unless the machine came from HP specifically as a Vista Media Center machine, you don't have a BIOS with DCT (it's still fairly rare).

2. Only OEM versions of Windows Vista Home Premium and Windows Vista Ultimate had an OEM-only hotfix that enabled the DCT feature, so the statement (while confusing) is accurate - you need either Windows Home Premium, or Windows Ultimate - either must have the DCT patch (the sentence you found is proper English, but can be a bit confusing if you think too hard).

I would add a 3:

3. Get a Windows 7 Media Center machine from an OEM (either HP or Dell will have them readily on hand - most other OEMs don't even make them) with CableCard support if you're going to get CableCARD - considering #1 here and the fact you most likely don't have a DCT BIOS, getting a Win7 MCE machine might be your best option (MCE in Win7 is quite a bit better than MCE on Vista in a few CableCARD specific areas too, like, oh, stability).

[JorgeA]

cluberti,

Thanks very much for the information! This does help to clarify things a ton, and you're right -- I probably did overthink that sentence. But because the project would involve a substantial amount of time and effort, I wanted to make sure I wasn't setting off on a road that would turn out to be a dead end.

Sounds pretty definite that I couldn't simply take my Vista PC and add whatever hardware is needed to turn it into a DVR that'll record cable channels.

It's puzzling (not to say maddening) to have all these thick OS manuals that cheerfully describe how to set up your PC to work as a DVR -- without bringing up the teeny little fact that you will need a very specific type of PC with a particular version of the OS, otherwise you're SOL. Many folks (including the authors of some of these other manuals) sneer at Microsoft, but there you go: it was Microsoft's guide that talked about this crucial fact.

Looks like we'll be looking at Windows 7 systems to implement this idea, if we decide to go that route. (Basically we're picking between a Media Center PC and a setup centered around a TiVo or Moxi.)

Thanks again for your help.

--JorgeA

[cluberti]

I've used all 3 (and also MythTV), and TiVo is the most "user friendly". However, it's also a closed box with no other real capabilities, and it's pretty expensive for a decent version that can store large amounts of TV. I personally prefer using an OEM Windows 7 Media Center machine, and although I don't get the TiVo "suggestions" feature with MCE, I can't say I miss it either - I really only ever watched any suggestions when it didn't have anything left recorded from my to-do list, which was pretty rare. Also, with other internet TV providers and Netflix integrated into MCE, the media library from Zune, iTunes, and my Windows Home server also available to MCE and usable from other PCs or the 360 extender in the living room, I'm happy with my choice.

You will need to do what's best for you, but even a TiVo is going to need CableCARD devices anyway if you want full cable programming. MCE will work with an external cable box with an IR device if you wanted to take an off-the-shelf PC and use it as an MCE, but if you want CableCARD support you need an OEM system with a specific BIOS extension to use the cards. I actually do the former (standard Win7 box, not MCE-specific) because I don't need CableCARD - everything I want to watch from TimeWarner comes in to a Slingbox HD Pro, which is connected to the MCE box with an ATI tuner inside via component in the office in a corner. I watch everything on extenders or a laptop or desktop elsewhere in the house, which works fine.

[JorgeA]

cluberti,

At our home we'd definitely need the CableCARD capability. We're both news junkies, and half-hour network news just don't fill the bill. Plus she loves the Hallmark Channel and "Mad Men" on AMC, and I tune in regularly to the History Channel. Now that all those networks are encrypted, too, I can't use my DVD recorder to capture them off the Clear QAM tuner.

"User-friendliness" is a major factor, for sure. Although I'm the PC guy in the family, my wife actually uses the DVR more than I do, and I don't think she'd be happy having to fiddle with behind-the-scenes computer settings in order to get the setup to do what she needs it to do. Since you have used all of these systems -- how much more user-friendly would you say TiVo is than MCE?

I should say that she and I each have our own reason for switching away from the cable company's DVR. She finds it to be unreliable, sometimes failing to record a show that she had set normally, and often jumping to the end of the recording when in fast-forward mode. And I -- well, I detest paying $16 a month to do what I used to be able to do with my DVD-R, so I'm looking for something that will save us money in the long run. Especially if we throw in a second DVR so that we can "tape" in a different room, that's close to $400 a year on equipment that I don't own. Bound to pay for itself within 3-4 years, even if I splurge and even if you factor in the monthly fee for the CableCARDs.

Thanks for filling me in on these things!

--JorgeA

Edited May 27, 2010 by JorgeA

[cluberti]

TiVo is nice because the UI is pretty dead-simple, but on a feature-by-feature basis I think MCE is probably better. Both TiVo and MCE will allow multi-room viewing, although TiVo requires another full TiVo for it, whereas MCE can use an extender - depending on the quality of MCE extender, these can cost almost as much as a full TiVo though (although any PC or xbox with MCE can be an extender as well), so it's probably a wash.

Ultimately, it's up to you (or maybe more accurately, your wife) as to which you want to use. I found the new TiVo premier units with HD to be quite good, but the ads were annoying enough that I ended up sticking with MCE.

The one sticking point you have to watch out for though with TiVo is the monthly fee - you will pay said monthly fee for the use of it and it's guide data/updates, whereas MCE has no costs above and beyond the initial purchase price. However, the fee is pretty nominal (a few $ a month), but it is there (and if you don't pay the fee, TiVo stops getting guide data).

[JorgeA]

cluberti,

If we do end up going with TiVo, we intend to buy the lifetime subscription, since part of the idea is to cut out the monthly DVR rental fee. At the rates we're paying the cable company, we figure that the TiVo machine + lifetime sub price would pay for itself in about 4 years. (Although I did read that "lifetime" means the life of the TiVo recorder, not our lifetime.)

But with the idea of the MCE extenders, you've given me more stuff to chew on. Thanks (really!). This'll make for some interesting reading over the weekend.

--JorgeA

[cluberti]

TiVo's lifetime subscription is usually $399 for the unit, but $12.95 monthly. If you plan on keeping it more than 30 months, then it starts being "free" in month 31. Otherwise, monthly is cheaper (a lifetime subscription is for the box only, so you need one for each TiVo, and it's non-transferable). Just FYI (there's always confusion about this, so I figure I'd throw it out there preemptively). MCE Extenders are great, but again, the cost of one very nice MCE computer + a few extenders is probably going to be approximately the same (within a hundred or so dollars) of a few TiVo units and lifetime subscriptions for each, so it is always best to choose the device(s) that will work best for you. The one nice thing about an MCE box is that it's also a Win7 computer, and ties in nicely with a Windows Home Server (if you ever decide to go with a "media server" type environment, WHS+MCE is a much better experience than anything else I've tried - however, if you don't, it means nothing ).

[CoffeeFiend]

I figured I'd add my 2 cents.

Tivo has its strengths:

-it's better for those that are "technically challenged" (you know, those who can't install Windows on their own or set the clock on their VCRs)

-it's better for those people that run malware-infested warez and have to reformat every other week

-the guide costs money, but they supposedly keep it more updated when some shows are canceled or moved around

Win7 MCE has its own too:

-devices work together. Win7 PCs, media extenders (including the Xbox360 which doubles as a decent gaming device ), WHS and all. TV on your computers too. The extenders, including cool little devices like the roku soundbridge radio also work with WMP integration (stream remotely, etc) and all. Being able to stream the same playlist you sync your mp3 player with to your entertainment system or radio is nice for sure, and your movie library is handy too -- yeah, it does more than just TV. It's a fairly nice system overall.

-you can add as much space as you want, anytime. I've seen 2TB drives for as little as $110

-you can have loads of tuners (for digital cable, OTA, analog, etc), and control some devices using infrared, etc -- it's versatile and powerful

-if your cableco ever moves to SDV, then you can get a tuning adapter, whereas with tivo.... no idea (might be a tie)

-you can make backups of the recordings on your PC. If your Tivo ever breaks down (like my old satellite PVR did, thrice) then just say goodbye to your shows

-no annoying monthly fees, nor several hundreds of dollars upfront

Mind you it seems like we'll never get anything like CableCARD up in Canada. Our only option is the cableco's highly overpriced and really crappy PVRs (along with the really bad plans)

[JorgeA]

cluberti,

Yup, we'd figured we'd be paying (to round off the numbers) $250 for each TiVo machine (bought on sale) + $400 for the lifetime subscription, for a total of ~$650 for each room we wanted to set up. (Add $1.75/month for each CableCARD we'd need, but that's a lot better than $16/month for every DVR.) The original idea was to re-create the old arrangement where each TV set could record on its own VCR, but I'm not opposed to having one central recorder that would then send out the signal to the other sets. I think you can do that with TiVo; I know that our cable company doesn't.

I really appreciate your throwing in the additional info about the MCE extenders! That does swing the balance back towards TiVo, because I'd rather not subject my wife to a lot of "techie stuff," as she calls it....

One thing that's holding me back from just taking the plunge with TiVo is whether the company will still be around in three years, and we'll end up with a bunch of expensive doorstops. Do you have a read on that? I dont' get the feeling that Microsoft is in danger of going belly-up anytime soon.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

CoffeeFiend,

Thanks very much for the comparison. This is a good rundown, and it's worth a lot more than 2 cents.

We're not looking for a lot of extra features, necessarily. (Although I wouldn't object to having them!) As I said to cluberti, we're basically looking to recreate the VCR/DVD-R environment, where we could tape shows and watch them on every TV without having to shell out hundreds of additional $$ every year on cable DVR rentals. Amazingly, with just a couple of tweaks (like modern recorders with QAM tuners) we were still able to do this up until last month, when the cable company got around to encrypting all the non-premium cable channels. (All right, all except for the shopping networks. )

I'd have to go back and check on this, but I think I read on their website that with TiVo you can copy the shows to a DVD for archival purposes (or just to make room for new programs on their machine.)

At first I was leaning toward the Windows Media Center solution, but then I found out that I couldn't simply put a digital cable tuner on my existing Vista PC -- I'd need a new PC specially designed to do this, and probably using Windows 7. So that scotched the idea of saving on the upfront expense for equipment, and now I'm leaning toward TiVo, except I wonder how well the company will be doing two years from now.

Thanks again!

--JorgeA

[cluberti]

Honestly, that question's been asked for the last few years, and they're still here. It's a valid question, but given TiVo holds the patent to time shifting in DVRs, I'd expect them to stay afloat long after competitors have failed. Yes, Microsoft isn't going anywhere (and they seem committed to MCE, putting it's feature-extensions into the Xbox 360 and Windows Home Server, but I would suggest for your wife and you probably the TiVo route. TiVo really is easy to use, and you can remove programming to a Windows box for archival (as long as you have your TiVo media key). It's not portable like MCE programming copied off (once a TiVo program is copied to a machine, it has to stay there unless you remove the encryption).

Also, TiVo specifically has gotten bit with the CCI bit in the broadcast flag that some cable providers are now shipping with lots of programs and sometimes whole channels - watch out for this. The CCI bit will keep you from copying the files off of the TiVo, watching shows on other DVRs, and sometimes even from recording the program itself and watching later on the *same* TiVo. MCE is not technically immune to this (you can't burn a CCI-flagged show and watch it on another MCE PC, for example), but the way TiVo works causes it to handle the CCI bit differently than MCE. For example, a show with CCI on MCE can still be seen in other extender units registered to MCE somewhere else in the house as long as the DRM keeps the remote unit in contact with (and validating the licensing of) the orignal MCE where the show was recorded, because it's never physically moved from the original box. In contrast, TiVo locks the file down entirely because it has to copy the show to play it on another TiVo - it doesn't "stream" the file, it actually has to copy it and replay it on the other unit (which is of course in violation of the CCI bit). There's no workaround for this that I am aware of due to the aforementioned way TiVo "shares" programming, so if you live in an area where the CCI bit is being sent with programming, this could be a deal-breaker. This seems to happen on channels periodically on Time Warner, Comcast, CableVision, etc. Just keep it in mind - might want to do your homework on it before plunking down cash for multiple units which may or may not be fully functional. However, if you find you won't run into this (yet), TiVo is an easier choice for the wife, I would think.

Like I mentioned before, there are reasons I chose the MCE over TiVo, and this was one of them. The broadcast flag *is* coming, whether we like it or not - TiVo is *not* ready for this in prime-time, but the Microsoft solution is (the DRM platform actually doing something good for a change).

[JorgeA]

cluberti,

Whoa, that really would be a deal-breaker. Not being able to watch recorded programs even on the *same* TiVo??? Looks like a phone call to TiVo (to see if and when they'll be dealing with this issue) and to the cable company (to see if and when they'll be implementing this idea) are in order.

One gets the impression that many recent technological developments are intended to make it as hard (and/or as costly) as possible for viewers to record shows and watch them where and when it suits them best, as opposed to the programmers/broadcasters. Time was when you could just plug in the VCR and hit a couple of buttons and be on your merry way. Now you have to learn an alphabet soup of initials (CCI is the latest addition to my vocabulary -- thanks!) and get super-technical to do the same thing.

Doing a bit of digging before posting this reply, I found the following interesting discussion of the issue: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-09/tivo-and-the-cci-byte/. Maybe Moxi will be a viable candidate for us after all, and MCE is still in the running. OTOH, I probably shouldn't hold my breath for clarity on this point from TiVo or the cableco.

Your knowledge of these details is really impressive. Thanks very much for sharing it!

--JorgeA

[cluberti]

Not a problem - it's one of those things where the TiVo design (whilst great back in March of 1999 when the first TiVo was made) is starting to show it's age (just think about it - it's basically an 11-year-old design that only now, with the Premiere units, are getting a much different version of the software and front-end). They'd have to redo quite a bit of their software to make this work like MCE does, and I don't know if they can or will be desirous to do so. Hard to say, but yes, you need to keep abreast of the broadcast flag and it's components - having a system that isn't designed to handle it (if your cableco implements it now, or in the future) is something you need to be aware of because I doubt either TiVo or the cableco are going to tell you anything reliable on this subject as it's likely touchy for all involved - the cableco has to do what content providers push, and if TiVo (or any other PVR maker) wants to be able to release a product into the market, they need to implement the DRM to allow things like the broadcast flag. This means that the TiVo design of transferring shows (rather than streaming them) is not designed to work in the "new" age of the broadcast flag, specifically the CCI bit (technically it's been around for almost 10 years itself, but it's only starting to see more broad implementations over the last two years or so).

[JorgeA]

cluberti,

Very interesting. I do vaguely remember reading something about this sort of thing a few weeks ago. It may have had to do with making movies available on Video On Demand at the same time as the DVD is released, but that didn't mean anything to me at the time because we hadn't yet lost our Clear QAM channels, so I kind of mentally filed it away.

I'm looking at a "magbook," The Ultimate Guide to Windows 7, that gives some details on using an Xbox or other companies' hardware to stream recorded TV around the house. There's also a one-page chapter called "Streaming music and video," that discusses devices called "DLNA media streamers" such as the ZyXEL DMA1100P. It seems to be associated with Media Player rather than Media Center. Would this sort of device work for showing cable programs that we recorded onto the PC on other TV sets, or is it really more for playing music and DVDs? From what I read about it (see here), it looks like it might do the trick like an Xbox or other extender.

There's also a DMA2500 model that specifically says it will handle encrypted digital contents, but I wonder if the 1100 may be enough, assuming that one has a tuner and CableCARD to decrypt the signal and put it on the PC before streaming.

If the ZyXELs really work for what we're talking about, I like the idea of using the house's electric wiring for a local network!

--JorgeA