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About Wai_Wai

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  1. Thank you for all your replies. We have finally sent the LCD monitor back to the manufacturer. It fixed the problem for us within 1 day.
  2. LCD monitor going black after several seconds This is how the incident occurred. A roommate used a towel to clean the back of the monitor, but he mistakenly loosed the power cable a bit (on the monitor), and so the monitor went off. Once replugged, the monitor acted weird. Every time you switch on the monitor the screen is lit for several seconds. Then the screen will turn black (the power button is indicated on). You switch the button off and then on. The screen will show for several seconds and turn black again. I tried to remove all cables and put them back. It doesn't work. I tested the monitor in two computers with the same (miserable) result. I used different cables too. Tried both D-SUB and DVI. No luck. It's hard to believe the monitor went out of order after such clean-up. How could this happen? Any pointer to the problem?
  3. I'm interested to know what makes such a huge difference so I started to take a close look at how they come with such a very different answer. I even contacted the author of aanet and asked for explanations. I found something interesting between two calculators and I want to share what I found. Capacitor aging Outervision has this factor while aanet not. If we take this factor out, Outervision will be 582W vs Aanet 367W. Asking aanet to include this factor into account, the author told me that he had included this into consideration in the calculation. He explained the 'generic' style of psu has already accounted for this with the huge headroom figures. Decent brand psu's use proper capacitors that last for a very long time before reducing in a capacitance/ESR enough to impact on psu's performance, so he don't add any headroom for this. Take a typical 'low end' but not junk capacitor like a Teapo sm. Teapo are very popular, from pcp@c to low end thermaltakes. It's rated for 3000 hours at 105 degrees C @ maximum rated ripple current before 20% change in capacitance is noted. It will last for 192,000 hours at 45 degrees C. This would mean 21.92 years of 24/7 usage. Ref: http://www.cbs.it/acrobat/teapo/sm.pdf, http://www.low-esr.com/endurance.html-ssi . In other words, as long as you buy a decent brand of PSU which uses proper capacitors, you can use your PSU over 10+ years easily. Capacitor aging is a bluff. Adding 30% is utterly unnecessary. However if you want to use "this factor" for other purposes (eg as a way to add headroom for future expansion), you may do it. But you don't use it simply because you are worried about "capacitor aging". Specs vs Actual Consumption I tried to compare the value given in each component by each calculator. I found something interesting. Outervision is trying to be very conservative and will usually take the extreme/max values. It does what other simple PSU calculator does (trying to be way overestimate just to be safe). Aanet is very special in that it tries to be as realistic as possible (while being safe not to underestimate). It uses the actual wattage from the test results to do the calculation. It breaks down the steps and does not give only one single answer. Instead of reading the recommendation only (which is a wrong way to do), you should read all parts in "Actual System Power Consumption"!! Some comparisons: Outervision = (OV) Aanet = (AN) Product ======================== OV ===== AN (Difference) CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (Manchester) ==== 89 ===== 47 (-42W) AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ (Toledo) ====== 110 ===== 70 (-40W) Intel Core2Duo E6300 (Allendale) ======= 65 ===== 44 (-21W) Intel Core2Quad Q9300 (Yorkfield) ===== 103 ===== 58 (-45W) Intel Core2Extreme QX9650 (Yorkfield) == 130 ===== 85 (-45W) [Note: Regarding the watt usage in AN, the default wattage used by AN is the peak wattage at heavy/full load from actual tests] Graphic card: ATI HD2600Pro ================== 25 ===== 22 (-3W) ATI HD3650 ==================== 45 ===== 37 (-8W) ATI HD4850 ==================== 99 ===== 99 ( -- ) ATI HD4870 =================== 144 ==== 124 (-20W) nVidia 8600GT ================== 38 ===== 38 ( -- ) nVidia 9600GT ================== 54 ===== 51 (-3W) [Note: Regarding the watt usage in AN, the default wattage used by AN is the peak usage. The actual value is adjusted a little to be closer to what the graphics card would be continuously drawing in gaming] Hard disk drive (HDD): SATA HDD: 24/HDD (OV) Generic HDD: ~7.875/HDD [when gaming], ~11/HDD [for fileserver] (AN) Others: RAM DDR2 (800) ================ ~4.5 ==== ~1.5 ( -3.0W) Floppy drive =================== ~4.6 ===== 0.0 # (-4.6W) DVDRW Drive ================= ~26.8 ===== 0.0 * (-26.8W) Blue-ray Drive ================= ~28.8 ===== N/A PCI (average) ================= ~13.4 ==== ~2.0 (-12W) USB device ==================== ~2.3 ==== ~0.5 " (- 2W) Firewire ====================== ~7.2 ===== N/A #: The author excludes the option of FDD because seriously they only use power when accessing the floppy drive, so unless your running crysis off your floppy drive it's not going to make a difference. *: Only the 5V Amp is changed (+0.3A). ": Low-powered USB device consumes 0.5W, high-powered USB device consumes 2.5W. Reference Power Consumption: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-...ide,1611-4.html http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/670/ Comments Outervision is a conservative calculator. Expect to buy an overwatt PSU that you may not need. In addition it appears this site has partnership with various PSUs (ads!). I don't know if it's part of the reasons why it is considerably conservative. - CPU: It simply takes the values from the manufacturers'. It's the safest but the manufacturer usually overstates their watt usage. For example Intel states 65W TDP across many Core2Duo products. In reality it is very normal that the actual wattage is a lot different from the quoted TDP value of the CPU - Graphic card: It's ok. However the wattage when both cards run in SLI/F is inaccurate. It's wrong to simply multiply the wattage by twice. The actual wattage is more complicated, depending on the card, motherboard etc. - HDD: 24W per SATA HDD looks crazy. I think hardly any HDD needs over 20W. As an example, WD Caviar SE series needs less than 10W while reading/writing according to the manufacturer specifications. Slightly less (~0.5W) when it is idle. - Others: It goes too far when measuring the possible watt usage under "Others". They are way over-estimating. For example, there are few USB devices consuming 2.3W. Devices like USB keyboard, mouse, RAM stick etc. usually need less than 0.5W. Aanet is an aggressive calculator. It wants to get as close to the max watt usage our system really needs, with some headroom on top for safety. - CPU: It is much more realistic and accurate. The values are the peak values at 100% load taken from the actual tests. - Graphic card: It's slightly better than Outervison's. However the wattage when both cards run in SLI/F is also inaccurate. It's wrong to simply multiply the wattage by twice. The actual wattage is more complicated, depending on the card, motherboard etc. - HDD: the values are taken from actual tests. The values are most realistic if your HDD is list. Otherwise you can select "generic hard disk" or any specific HDD close to yours. But then it is safer to add a few watt per HDD above its calculation, especially when your computer uses a lot of HDDs, acting as fileservers or having heavy hard disk activities. 10-15W would be a safe while realistic range of figures for 3.5" HDDs. It would be 3-5W for 2.5" HDDs. - Others: It is being more realistic on the actual consumption of the components under "Others". It even takes RAM overclocking into account while Outervision lacks it. Although it can cover most typical or normal situations, it may get too aggressive in a few cases (eg non-typical systems which are heavy on PCI bus). Fortunately nearly all decent PSUs can accommodate your system with more than enough watt from 3.3V/5V rails, though the total watt required (in the worst scenario) will be slightly underestimated.
  4. I know little about aftermarket coolers. AFAIK aftermarket coolers usually help to squeeze small bits of performance only (200mhz or so). But from what you say, an aftermarket cooler can help boosting 1Ghz further. 1Ghz for US$30 is reasonable. What about buying aftermarket coolers which cost ~US$10? Is it okay? How far can it help? I don't know dual-channel will have influence on stability. Performance-wise: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/PARALL...NG,1705-11.html The result is so close that it's within the margin of error. So it seems to prove that while dual-channel apparently sounds so great, it's actually not. Also those tests usually stress the tester so much to draw a difference on the chart. For normal usage (eg converting a normal DVD5 into another format), I doubt if I can feel the difference. Apart from dual-channel, what problems do I face if I mix and match different RAMs (in size/timings/brand)? One question: Is single or double-sided RAM still a concern in today's world? If so, how can I know if it's single/double-sided and which one should I get?
  5. What do you pick - E21xx OR E7200 OR Others, and what RAM? I'm a budget overclocker. I'm also a price/performance geek. My current pick is E21xx which is very cheap and can overclock to 3.0Ghz easily with stock cooler. I'm also interested in the new E7200 but it's 100% expensive at my local stores (I don't buy online!). My choice of the coming motherboard is Foxconn P35A-S. 1. What's the difference between E21xx and E7200? As far as I know, the only differences are cache size and clock multiplier. Anything else? 2. Normally speaking, how far can E7200 go on stock cooling? How good is the overclockabilty of E7200? I plan to use its stock cooler only. I don't plan to spend extra bucks on aftermarket coolers unless it's proved to be worth it, price/performance-wise. 3. How much RAM should I get? My choices: 3GB: 1GB + 1GB + 1GB 3GB: 2GB + 1GB 4GB: 2GB + 2GB Does it hurt if I mix different RAM brand, or different size/timings of RAM? I'm using Windows XP Pro. I need to receive a lot of streaming data (10+). I may do occasional video & audio editing/recording. I don't often play games. DDR2 should be obsolete in 1-2 years. I believe I have to dump DDR2 when I upgrade after 3 years or so. So I don't think it's worth buying too much RAM even it's cheap. Dual channel shouldn't be a concern. Memory seems not to be the bottleneck. Hardly any application needs so much bandwidth. What do you think?
  6. Are the Newegg reviews trustowrthy? Not talking about the quaity of the reviewers themselves, but whether Newegg will filter reviews, or allow manufacturer representative to leave comments etc.
  7. Yes Antec does that too. It doesn't make any PSU. Theirs are built by different OEMs. The problem is it's hard to know which model is produced by which OEM. Even the same OEM, it appears it can provide both good and bad PSUs to different companies / different product lines (perhaps they give budgets/orders to the OEM ?!). Cooler Master has a mixture of mostly bad and ok and some good PSUs. That's why its fame is not good. Achel creates its own PSU. The price is reasonable with long warranty. It produces PSUs for other firms too. But I have no ideas how good/bad their PSUs are. I didn't 4x19A = 76A, but combined is 54A like I said (648W total -- the limit here is how much power the transformer's secondary can deliver). LOL. It proves that either my math sucks or I was too tired when I read your reply. Well it seems like they will not make any much difference under the modern technology. Either way fits both your and my non-gaming budget build. The single rail can keep the voltage within the specified limits so I'm not worried about one big rail either. But single rail seems to be better to deal with transient load of ultra/very-high gaming build. So it seems it's slightly better upgradability-wise. Another option is multi-rail but no pre-rail current limits. Those are essentially no difference from single-rail.
  8. Thanks for your reply. Cooler Master seems to be a "OK" brand only. Some people tell me not to pick this brand. I think, with some pre-cautions, we can actually find decent PSUs at a good price. AFAIK you can't simply add up the amps to form the combined amps. For example the antec neo HE 430w dual-rail, has 12V1+12V2+12V3 = 48A. But look at the 12V combined rating. It's 384w, or 32A (384/12=32 - amps is watts / voltage and the voltage is 12V in this case). So the combined amp is about 32A (not 48A). We assume that rating is accurate. There is a much more detailed but complex way to work out the combined total of 12V amps but I skip it here. -- Details. However combined amps have some other problems. Your system may shut down sometimes even if your combined amp is over the amp required by the system. It usually happens when you system has high-end graphic card(s). They draws frightening amount of watt. The transient load can be the cause of evil. Single rail will not have such kinds of problems.
  9. Corrected the fan issues. I use 1A (12W) for the total watt consumption cost. Updated result: Thus it's 756W (Outervision) vs 508W (aanet). ======================================================== So do you pay for its pro version? Or you simply pick a PSU based on the total watt given by Outervision? What's the brand/model of your PSU? That's the problem of "free". It's free. Can't really say it's my favourite or not. In effect there is no choice (except if I use paid service but I can't pay online). If we want more than just the total watt, it's the only one available on the net (so far). The choices left are "use it" or "not use it". Just try to be cautious and add more headroom. Use the other one. Take the most conservative value.
  10. This is what I want to hear. I wonder if this motherboard has all sorts of bugs/incompatibilities etc. About OC, that's really true. But there is something interesting about this board. This board has a decent overclockability (not excellent though). I'm interested to know more. It's sold for US$8X. What a great deal with a lot of features. What board can beat this one with about the same feature at a cheaper price? I'm afraid not. I read the reviews from newegg. Most customers gave a thumb-up to this board. But are those reviews reliable/trustworthy? Does anyone know where I can find more reviews from the customers who used this board?
  11. That's scary. Unfortunately it seems to be the only site which calculates all sorts of requirements (total watt, +12V, +3.3 & +5V), together with UPS requirements. I couldn't find any site which will do this. They only give me total watt and that's all. How could I pick a suitable PSU and UPS without knowing the other details? I know their choices are limited. When it's so, I simply added the unaccounted values as a workaround. What's your motherboard? (I selected P35) > "calculate your OC'ed wattage by hand" Isn't that it will update and calculate itself? > 12x Seagate 7200.11 (SATA) WOW! So many SATAs. (I selected 9+3 Seagate 7200.10. Anyway it shouldn't vary much from one to another. I will pick those which have the same rotation speed) > 1 extra PCI-e x1 There's no PCIe x1 as a choice. (I selected 8600GTS as workaround, +20W than 8500GT) > DDR2 speed for no real reason Don't RAM size and RAM speed have an effect on PSU/UPS? > 4x DDR2 800 what's the voltage? (I used 1.8v) > 6x 120mm & 1x 80mm fans Normal case fans or...? how much watt/amp do those fans use? You can input the numbers manually as the author suggests. (I put 0.5 for both fans) > 90% load, 30% cap aging I believe it assumes 100% load when calculation. There's no 30% cap aging. We have to add this percentage after the calculation. > whereas aanet's calc says a 367w You did take its recommended value (not the actual value), didn't you? The values I got, after adding 30% aging by myself: Thus it's 756W (Outervision) vs 572W (aanet). Which one is more accurate?
  12. jaclaz, I'm so sorry if my statements misled you. Regarding HardwareSecrets, in effect I read this article before this topic. If I get it correctly (you stressed on "Page 8 & "Page 9"), the points you want me to pay attention are "exaggeration of total watt" and "efficiency". Please read the first post carefully. I pointed out the most important points for you: - it suggests "twice the load" AND "twice the load on each rail (3.3V, 5V, 12V)" - The reasons are: "[it's] how you better assure longevity, cool operation, quiet operation, max electrical efficiency (to save on electric bills), lowest ripple and noise current, and so on." - it's not meant to apply to bad/cheap brand cases which largely exaggerate their "total watt" rating. After all those PSUs should be avoided. Exaggeration is not their only problem. [Note: I find decent/good brands are pretty close to the advertised ratings. Some can really supply what it claims (eg Seasonic S12 500W/600W)] - the "(at least) double requirement" is not some general advice. It is a rule of thumb or standard "gotten from lots of reading and communication in forums with people that help test and design power supplies" About BS, it is meant to say I think the specific idea given in the first post and the reasons are too weak. This specific advice doesn't hold water. The wording of BS is too strong. Sorry! Sorry I don't get why the article from HardwareSecrets is a source/proof of "(at least) double requirement". It's two different things between "we should add SOME headroom" and "we should AT LEAST ADD THE TOTAL LOAD AND ON EACH RAIL as the headroom".
  13. What if it restarts suddenly? I have set to show BSOD. Still it restarts suddenly without BSOD. If it's the case, it's very certain that the problem must lie on my hardware. Am I correct? So as long as I'm using a PSU from a decent/good brand, apart from truly bad lucks, my PSU shouldn't kill my other hardware even if it can't supply enough power or suddenly shut down. Am I right? The only figures I got is from Extreme Power Supply Calculator: "Electrolytic capacitor aging. When used heavily or over an extended period of time (1+ years) a power supply will slowly lose some of its initial wattage capacity. We recommend you add 10-20% if you plan to keep your PSU for more than 1 year, or 20-30% for 24/7 usage and 1+ years." It's scary. I lose 10-20% for 1 year of usage. 20-30% for 1 year of 24/7 usage. However I wonder it's a general advice. They don't really do some research to come up with those figures. So do I. But if the aging is as scary as what the above suggest. My PSU won't survive after 3-4 years of usage. The major worry about PSU aging is I can't detect it until it causes damages on my hardware. But after hearing what both of you say, I am relieved. It happens the PSU will signal us by keep shutting down / rebooting. STILL it won't kill my hardware, perhaps unless I keep ignoring its signals. Of course I never buy bad/ no-name brands. I only use decent-to-good brands (or rather OEMs). PS: Actually my monitor is acting weird. Eccentric behaviour: 1) Restart. Suddenly off then on again. 2) Soft Off. I need to press the button to turn it on. 3) Hard Off. I need to unplug and plug the cable connector to revive it. It only happens a few times in this 1-2 months. I don't think my computer causes it. I suspect the cable. But how can I verify my "theory"?
  14. If it's a rule that all topics about PSU must go to the same thread, then I agree. Otherwise I don't see it appropriate. Read the title: "When you buy a PSU, you must buy twice as much as you need!" It's a discussion of the "double requirement" suggested by an anon. This question is solved, and the answer is BS. The topic can be closed. But this topic has nothing to do with the general questions about PSU I'm asking now. It isn't really related. The subject becomes a misnomer too. If someone is asking those questions for convenience, I would think it's hijacking / off-topic. Comments given. Thanks for listening. Good day.
  15. What do you think about Foxconn? I'm interested in Foxconn P35A-S available in local stores. Is it good? Did anyone use either P35A or P35A-S or any P35 motherboard from Foxconn? If so, which model of motherboard do you use? How good/bad is it? P35A-S specifications: http://www.foxconnchannel.com/product/Moth...ID=en-us0000318 My requirements: - Mainstream/budge build - LGA775 Socket - support 4 DDR2 RAM, at least 8GB - 2 PCIe x16 for 4 monitors [CrossFire is not required but nice to have] (I also accept any motherboard with open-ended PCIe slot - decent (not necessarily good) overclockability Overclocking needs: CPU: OC my E2180 to 3.0Ghz. Change of voltage will be minimal. RAM: I want it to be 1:1 FSB:RAM ratio, so I will probably not OC at all. May want the ability to change RAM voltage. Video card: I will try to OC my ATI HD2600Pro anyway. I'm a light gamer. I don't OC my second ATI HD2400Pro.

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