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Yeah, to get back on track this was a bit of frame for my main point. I think that the OS could benefit from some sort of upgrade of how and where the help and menuing deploy. I see a add-in where you can choose either a developer slanted menuing or writer\artist or gamer set of groups...sort of like irfanview and other apps ask for which files to assocaiate in the app. Developers make different use of the machine ditto other sort of folks - I just hink the way Microsoft deigned to dump stuff in accessories sucks - we could do better or whats the point of micking about with all of this anyway y'know? I am bad at the drag and drop to move my menu stuff around and the taskbar method does not allow you to see a mockup of the new panel or panels as it is the explorer type app layout with just folders. Drugwash: we both have valid groupings and i agree with you that you don't wanna have a lot of little menus but still there should be a better 3-4 groups that make more sense don'tcha think? The matter needs mulling some I guess...

Drugwash - why I think some groupings don't work well: 1> control Panel covers so many aspects that the applets really work better as breakout shortcuts on various other menu groups - plus its already close at hand under the settings or on the desktop via tweak ui. things like 'display' or 'add programs' alone would be more useful as singleton breakout entries I'd wager. 2> Editors are for different and often multiple purposes so a common grouping adds no real value unless 2 or more editors share a common usage. I usually choose an editor by purpose-of-use. 3> A Microsoft grouping never worked too well for me and adds no value unless you have some need to separate ms apps from 3rd party ones. consideing that microsoft apps cover a wide spectrum of use, does not really cluster choice much beyond that. I use it mostly as an arbitary games sub-choice given how many games I've collected in 30 yrs, I suppose its either that or separate by type of game such as board, card,stragey, etc. either one is equally valid I suppose but still kinda of futile I think as a collection grows. 4> Utilities for the same as I said above. 5> Internet, Network, and System have worked pretty well for me too at separating functions of a PC although they still have aspects that blur the lines between those 3 groups. 6> A Multimedia group never worked well for me given what a catch-all term it is. I always wind up breaking it down further into sub-grps to keep stuff straight - word form pics etc. I don't cross those lines too often working with these apps so it kinda of fits me using these apps. 7> Debug as a category is pretty specialized to developer's PC else it more fits as a sub-cat of System-Internet-Network triumverate. See what I mean about choice??

First off, lots of little menu panels sort of defeats the purpose of a well-ordered arrangement. I aim for brevity & maximum clarity but a consequence of a growing collection of programs and files means the menu grows too unless you opt to leave the major part of your drive(s) off menu. By your choice of wording you take control. for ex: 'write' is not the same as 'print' though they mean some things in common. Also, people often fail to realize how your personal mental structure steers things when somebody says a particluar word to you. Psychologists make constant use of the technique known as word association. Writing down a password is a BAD IDEA from a security standpoint. Simple passwords - dittio! By using your response to words & situational cues, you can keep a host of passwords in your head - both recallable & secure(unless you talk in your sleep). Best of all - unforgettable. The same idea ideas hold true when choosing menu groups & categories. Picking words/names is a bit of a trick, but done right, you can build a solid universal scheme of names where the users of that system are concerned. Like a novelist, you 'steer/ the user with your choice of words. Ok - having said all that you can see how menus, help screens & signs, badly done, do a user a disservice. An application can become a real loser purely on this point alone. Two big issues really mess me up on computers: 1> programs that 'insist' on group/folder wording/placement on installation. 2> crafting your own choices & the complexity involved is double trouble & screwed when it comes time to upgrade an app & still maintain an orderly machine. I hope this helps put us all on the same page from this point discussing menus...

Thanks Drugwash! I feel MUCH better now...I don't know if any have mentioned this but HWINFO does nothing as it omits the required /UI as part of its run info. Anyhoo, as I was saying; win98SE (and windows in general) suffer from the habit of treating their users as if they were severely retarded kiddiegarters! My This My That My My MY can't they ever do it right? Windows has perennially avoided including such basics of computing as 1> a bulk file renamer and others but OH Boy, We got Aero!!!! Dumping everthing either into the programs panel or under accessories is majorly stupid. On my machine I opt for a better way...I have tried various arrangements of the start menu links but I like going with a single panel simply shooting upward from the start button and the same groups/categories running out from the programs panel. The idea is to put multiple links on several panels to corral apps etc to a common usage related placement. For ex. putting your players together, or your CD DVD apps on a single panel with a > tick for the individual app. so that you don't have to keep sliding back and forth from panel to panel to choose things. Basicly I group under six sets : accessories, accessibility, communications, entertainment, internet, and system. I pull all the crap out of accessories as defaulted and put things like IE under the Internet set, along with Outlook Exp, and Windows Update, put the add-in items like IEAK and other internet intended toys like other browsers under the Internet Tools group. I pull games out under an entertainment group, list my screensavers, and WMP9 here too. I define down things pertaining to system under sub-cats like: change mgt, directx, disk tools(invasive), monitoring(non invasive apps) pull file mgr and windows explorer and the character map...basicly paring the accessories set down to put the basic like the calc, imaging notepad paint and the like which are truely accessory type apps. I expand the basic six to my personal ones like Archivers which list things like winzip and winRar, and another for graphics apps like Irfanview, and ms office 2000, and since I make a lot of CDs and DVDs and use several apps such as deepburner, creator 6 and others I figure that deserves a special group. Another pet peeve of mine is the The Great American Wizzbang Software naming thing...notice and deplore the massively long entries in our menus exhorting the corporate hubris of their 'perfect' software. I scrap it all and dumb it down form things like Uninstall Goober to simply Uninstall...you get much narrower and tidier menu panels that way. Thank you all for letting me rant for a mo and down with Billy..long live Linux!!!(and SESP2)

I must be dumb because there is no button or icon for attaching attachments to the message I am composing..pls help a newbie!

A big thing for me in regards to 98SE is the weird way things are placed for the start menu. Since it is unofficial thing anyways, I want to volunteer a copy of my idea of items and placement for your comments. How do I go about uploading zip file to the forum?