how transparent are junction points?

[soimmore]

i was wondering if anyone had any experience with junction points, and in particular, how the windows installer handles them? usually, junction points are used to map one directory (or in my case, a partition) to another directory. I was wondering if i can use junction points on a root C:/ partition to point the /Windows directory onto another partition, say E:/.

cheers

[jondercik]

This could probably be done but it would be much harder than you think and not worth the time. In my opinion, junction points are more for use on servers to transparently increase available storage to users.

[dougiefresh]

I was wondering if i can use junction points on a root C:/ partition to point the /Windows directory onto another partition, say E:/.

Why would you want to screw around with your Windows folder? Screwing up that folder will result in an unbootable system....

Frankly, the only reason I use junction points on my Windows XP is to redirect the user's documents, favorites and email to a different partition. I have a recovery partition, which would overwrite the entire partition, including data. Redirecting the documents to another partition solves the data loss problem.

I hope this helps in some way.

[soimmore]

Well, the main reason i want to do this is to circumvent the requirement that windows xp wants to be installed to a primary partition. That requirement causes significant problems for me. If anyone knows an alternate method of installing XP onto a logical partition, i would love to know

[Jeremy]

If anyone knows an alternate method of installing XP onto a logical partition, i would love to know.

A logical partition is one without an OS. An active partition is one with an OS. If you use a partition for storage/backup, it is logical. If you decide at some point to install Windows on it, then it becomes active.

[Sonic]

Windows XP can be installed on any partition logical or not (for example in E:\ ) but bootsector/bootfiles will be installed in the primary active partition (generally C:).

[Marthax]

Frankly, the only reason I use junction points on my Windows XP is to redirect the user's documents, favorites and email to a different partition

Sorry that I'm a bit off topic, but why do you use junctions points for this when registry tweaks can do it for you? It's much easier and you really get rid of the folders what've been annoying you.

[E-66]

Well, the main reason i want to do this is to circumvent the requirement that windows xp wants to be installed to a primary partition. That requirement causes significant problems for me. If anyone knows an alternate method of installing XP onto a logical partition, i would love to know

Format your disk with a small primary partition (under 1 GB). Then create an extended partition with as few or as many logical partitions as you'd like. Then when you install XP it'll install the OS on a logical partition but the boot files will be installed in the primary active partition, C:, as Sonic mentioned in post #6.

[jaclaz]

Sorry,

I don't want to worsen the already made confusion on terms, but actually some of the above concepts appear to be incorrect.

An Active partition is one that has a "bootable" flag in the MBR.

This means that only Primary partitions can be made bootable.

When you boot the BIOS looks in the MBR of first drive and search for bootcode on the partition marked as bootable in the MBR, see here:

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/principles.htm

A "Logical Partition" should be more properly referred to as "Logical Volume inside Extended Partition".

The Extended Partition has an entry in MBR that redirects to the EMBR where the actual entries for the Logical Volumes (read Logical Partitions) are.

As long as a proper bootloader (in NT/W2K/XP/2003 NTLDR+NTDETECT.COM+BOOT.INI) resides on an active primary partition, it can boot a system (the /WINNT or /WINDOWS folder) residing on ANY accessible partition, regardless it is primary or logical.

On the other hand, as a very simple "security feature", you can have a disk with no active (and not even primary) partitions and boot from a removable device such as a floppy or USB stick, where these bootloader files are:

http://www.xxcopy.com/xxcopy33.htm

If you install, INSTEAD of the "Standard" MBR code a BOOTMANAGER, you can also boot some Operating Systems (including NT/W2K/XP/2003) directly from a Logical volume, if you fix the hidden sectors with the correct values:

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/ptedit.htm

The easiest way to setup a disk for single boot or simple multiboot (and to a certain extent, as I see it, the safer) is the way E-66 suggested, check also this posts of mine:

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?s=&showtopic=47182

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=33964

jaclaz

[dougiefresh]

Frankly, the only reason I use junction points on my Windows XP is to redirect the user's documents, favorites and email to a different partition

Sorry that I'm a bit off topic, but why do you use junctions points for this when registry tweaks can do it for you? It's much easier and you really get rid of the folders what've been annoying you.

I've tried registry settings. Every time I try changing them, things get screwed up. I got tired of things being screwed up, so I started using junction points to redirect the folders to where I want them. They work for me. Registry settings for this modification don't for me. That's why. :-)

EDIT: Oh yeah! That and I can't move the Shared Documents folders without screwing something up. Windows either doesn't like me, or doesn't like the changes for some dumb reason.....

Edited January 16, 2007 by dougiefresh

[E-66]

If an XP install is done as I described above (with a hard drive formatted as a small primary partition and one or more logicals, and the boot files put on the primary partition and the OS on a logical), can a boot manager be 'added' to that configuration at a later time, or does the bootmanager need to be installed at the beginning of the process?

I'm running XP by itself and plan on keeping it that way, but I was thinking that I could use a boot manager for giving me the option to boot into XP or use one or more DOS-based utilities like Ghost, whose executables I would locate on C:.

[jaclaz]

@E-66

As I see it, keeping things as "standard" as possible, unless something "different" is REALLY required, is always advisable.

And the thought of being able to fix things with a simple DOS/Win9x floppy or bootCD, should always been taken into account.

What I would do in your case:

1) Have the Primary Active partition formatted as either FAT16 or FAT32 (to have maximum compatibility), this is a solution I use since more than 10 years, and experience confirmed the usefulness of such a setup, see this:

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showto...mp;#entry581401

2) Install WinXP normally in one of the Logical Volumes inside Extended Partition

3) Download Grub4Dos from here:

http://grub4dos.jot.com/WikiHome

extract from it the grldr file and copy it to the Primary partition (drive C :\ )

4) Copy and paste the following in Notepad and save it as menu.lst (again on drive C :\ ):

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect
C:\GRLDR="Grub4Dos"

As you see, you didn't modify anything in the MBR nor in the bootsector, you only added a boot option to the "standard" NTLDR/BOOT.INI boot process.

The two entries in menu.lst allow you to either go back to the "standard" NTLDR/BOOT.INI (should you change your idea) or to boot from DOS/Win9x files.

Till now nothing really new, the same can be done easily with the help of Bootpart:

http://www.winimage.com/bootpart.htm

and just the standard NTLDR/BOOT.INI

But if you read the Grub4Dos documentation (actually at the moment rather scarce) and if you go to the 911CD Forum and search on it for posts with "Grub4Dos" in them to get some ideas and hints, you will soon find out the enormous potentiality you have in your hands, here are a few good starts:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...c=18838&hl=

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...c=18045&hl=

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...c=18846&hl=

A few basic examples:

You install a BartPE on C :\ ?, just add this in menu.lst:

title BartPE 
find --set-root /minint/setupldr.bin
chainloader /minint/setupldr.bin

You have floppy boot disabled in BIOS?

Just add this:

# This simply boots a floppy disk from your 
# physical floppy drive.
title Boot Floppy on (fd0)
chainloader (fd0)+1
rootnoverify (fd0)

You have CD boot disabled in BIOS?

# This simply boots a CD from your 
# physical CD drive.
# Cd must be a BootCD of course
title Boot CD on (cd)
root (cd)
chainloader (cd)

You want to boot from a Ghost (super)floppy image?:

# This is how you boot a floppy image
# stored on a FAT/FAT32 partition.
# Replace ghost.img to whatever image you desire to boot.
title Boot Ghost 2003 (ghost.img)
find --set-root /ghost.img
map --mem /ghost.img (fd0)
map --hook
chainloader (fd0)+1

And the above are just a few of the possibilities.....

jaclaz

Edited January 18, 2007 by jaclaz

[E-66]

Does this guy know his stuff or what? Thanks for the info, Jaclaz, MUCH appreciated! I've had Grub4Dos bookmarked for a while now but just haven't read up on it yet. I'll definitely check out the 911 forums and see what kind of ideas people have come up with that I can use myself.

Another question: with an install done as outlined above, would it be possible to have the computer boot into XP in the normal fashion upon startup without seeing the boot menu, but if I wanted to see the boot menu I could initiate it using a hotkey when the PC starts?

[jaclaz]

Another question: with an install done as outlined above, would it be possible to have the computer boot into XP in the normal fashion upon startup without seeing the boot menu, but if I wanted to see the boot menu I could initiate it using a hotkey when the PC starts?

Hmmm...., I don't think it's possible, but you can try to experiment lowering the value of

timeout=30

in BOOT.INI, a value of 0 should be equal to "directly" boot the default OS, but maybe, just maybe, if you press the [DOWN ARROW] key at the right time, you might be able to select the other entry.

With a value of 1, you will be able to use the key, but the BOOT.INI screen will probably be visible too much time for your tastes.

A possible alternative, for Ghost recovery, cannot say if it is possible to extend it use to other situations, is this rather complex procedure:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=18480

but it involves using a third party bootmanager, drive won't be "standard" anymore.

More similar reference:

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=47773

http://www.goodells.net/dellrestore/

jaclaz