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Alternatives to Win98


waywyrd

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I've had lots of thoughts about this issue also. Actually it first came up with the release and description of win xp, but I decided at that time I could wait a few more years since xp only had the "call-home" functions, and not shutting the user out for real as with vista.

But we have to face it, even though I'm writing on a 9x computer now, it's time is coming to an end. Gradually we will be shut out, first new programs, and eventually the web itself. But so will xp and 2000 pretty soon, and then there won't be any other option than vista's DRM hell! If you look at it with a view long into the future, vista and the os'es following it, will severly limit your and my digital freedom, in any way they can. Expect the grip to be tightened little by little, not so much that regular people will protest, but inch by inch they will take your computer freedom away from us all.

This issue is coming, if you like it or not, and you WILL need to make a choice at one time or another. Is 98 fairly compatible with almost everything today? Yes. Will it stay that way forever? Hell no. Soon Xp and 2000 will face the same problems.

I agree with all of you saying linux is not for you. It's a hassle. Jackhammer is almost unusable. win98's unofficial updates are hampered by almost no developers, and no real knowhow by the users to do anything themselves to further the work Xeno did.

The bottomine is; As win98 gradually becomes more and more unusable/uncompatible with the rest of the world, and a little later xp/2000, the other alternatives will become gradually more interesting.

I feel that tinkerers, and power users like us, with no real programming skills, will in the long run benefit the most migrating AWAY from the microsoft platform, whatever OS. Remember that almost every unix program ever written, still runs on almost any linux/unix distro. Microsoft on the other hand will continue to obsolete their older systems as they see fit, as needed for their profit growth. That in addition to the DRM thing, which essentially takes away your control over the computer and your files, says to me that migrating is unavoidable, it's just a matter of when!

As many of you have experienced, swapping all you ms knowhow, files and programs over to linux/unix isn't just that easy, I feel that the smartest way to go about things is to rather plan on a long term migration. Say starting in 2007 with a full migration sometime in 2 years time. Which is about the time xp and 2000 will become obsolete. I'm sure some security fixes will be availiable, but not new programs and such. As have been the case with 98.

THe benefit that will gradually become more clear, is that the more users of different linux distros, the better they will become. We as power users and tinkerers, who often perform the quasi or "home" computer helper/technichian, have the ability to convince people they should also migrate to another platform. The more users it gets, the more resources will be availiable for development of open source software, and the more options we as users will get to use that software. The situation now, with 98 becoming obsolete and incompatible for instance, that would never happen on that platform.

I'm not sure about reactOS.. the main thing in my mind is that whatever OS platform you choose, it should be open source, so no one company or person can obsolete it, andmake it impossible to develop further, for further use.As more users use open source, hardware manuftacturers will have to also comply with their need and wants. Look and Firefox for instance, it hasso many users developers cant simply dismiss them longer, and if the growth continues, it will get even better, with web applications also optimized for it. So will also be the case with games and apps, if there's sufficiently amount of users on linux, messengers and popular games will also be developed to that platform.

The migration is going to hurt, as in all cases where there are rewards at the end, there will be initial expenses and chores to be done first. But the longterm benenefit is quite clear, and if we don't do it, we will be sucket into microsofts wet dream of controlling erevry single human being on this planet, and whatever they do with a computer. I for one is not going to let that happen to me.

We all need to at one point or another find the guts to say Goodbye windows, and Hello freedom!

To the initial poster I would say that I don't have a readily availiable do-it-all solution after w98. But if you'll accept that it won't be a "quick and easy fix", (as with the sigarette comparison) You can have the slower but permanent fix. All the tinkering we guys typically do, usually don't benefit others than ourselves, and maybe a few friends on the microsoft platform. However, the same amount of testing, tinkering on the linux platform, can lead to a free and new release for everyone to enjoy. And we don't even need to be programmers to contribute; Just testing things and reporting issues is of great help!

If someone could establish a mass migrate movement that would be of such value for all of us in every way. Lets hope someone pics up the idea, and let us hope we one day can say so long windows, and good riddance!

Edited by tilstad
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Hi,

To Tilstad, being the original poster of this thread, I've got to say I found your comments very interesting and informative.

When I originally posted the thread, one of my thoughts was that it wouldn't be too long before WinXP was 'obselete' in Microsoft terms, and there was no way (if I could avoid it) I was going to 'migrate' to Vista. I'm currently dual-booting Win98 and WinXP. Mainly because some programs do work better under XP and I also wanted a little bit of knowledge as to how XP 'runs'.

With regard to a mass migration movement, maybe this Win98 forum would be a good platform to start from. Personally, I've already started to tell the people I know that I'm not 'migrating' to Vista, and perhaps more importantly why I'm not. The issue of having to inform Microsoft and hold your hand up every time your PC wants 'a tea-break'!

Waywyrd :rolleyes:

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The problem is that there is not enough developer working freely for w98.

Only Xeno has brought an attempt to modify the core of the w98 system to a point it's not w98 anymore and can become a real alternative.

Unfortunately Xeno seems to have put his kernal project on"hold" if not abandonned yet. Others made lots of cool stuffs but only in the cosmetic branch. The rest and the most useful so far has been picking up dll's from other systems and bundling upgrade packs into unofficial ones.

The Linux comunity is indeed much more vibrant.

ReactOS cannot be a NT clone because that would make it illegal. But they are inspired by the NT principles.

Now I wonder if it could be possible to take reactOS elements and put them on w98... Sort of w98ToReOS.

That would be great!

Xenos kernel project added extra functionality but it did not alter the monolithic kernel to that of a different system, it is still 9x through and through. The Linux community is certainly more vibrant, they have people in their that have gone to the trouble and picked up a c# programming book. I am certain their are people in this forum that are quite capable of moving the kernel project onwards and the same applies to device drivers and ntkern.vxd. Learning kernel mode programming takes time, and needs to be balanced with full time work etc. WinXP will be around for many more years to come, do not go surrender monkey just yet. Nix may start hitting brick walls also, due to Win hollywood forcing device manufacturers to release even less information regarding device drivers or fear a law suit. I sincerely hope they are allowed open access all be it without the inbuilt protection information or it smells to much like restrictive practice to me.

If you want to help any of these os`s pick up and learn c#, study imports/exports, make your own apps

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Not all of us dislike Windows. I love my Windows 95. But that doesn't mean I don't want to try other things. That's all.

But we have to face it, even though I'm writing on a 9x computer now, it's time is coming to an end.
What, just because official support stopped? Support for Windows 95 stopped years ago, and I'm still trucking along nicely. There's so much software out there, and open source projects, that official support doesn't really matter.

If you're talking about hardware support, that's a totally different topic. I don't think that should be much of an issue, though, if we're already comfortable with our older hardware setup.

Gradually we will be shut out, first new programs, and eventually the web itself.

The web? Why would that be? I can't express how silly that thought is. The web is not dominated by Microsoft, and despite years of an IE monopoly, Linux and other systems were not shut out. Why not? Because the web is built on open standards. They can't be shoved under the rug like that, or we'd need a whole new web, and no one is going to have the will or the cash to do something like that.

In fact, open source browsers and the rise in correct implementation of W3C standards make us less shut out from content. That being said, due to the nature of the web, if your browser doesn't support a certain feature, the page will degrade nicely. It will not deny you access, unlike an application does when an important dependency isn't met.

But so will xp and 2000 pretty soon, and then there won't be any other option than vista's DRM hell!
You're saying that as if Windows is the only OS in the world that's viable.
If you look at it with a view long into the future, vista and the os'es following it, will severly limit your and my digital freedom, in any way they can.

I don't think so. The open source community and the groups of hackers are strong. DRM gets cracked.

I agree with all of you saying linux is not for you. It's a hassle.
A good, simple distribution with clear documentation can solve this. I've been tinkering with the Debian base install and FVWM95. It's looking pretty good, though I haven't completely set it up yet. At the moment I'm hesitating between starting over with the testing version of Debian Etch, or waiting for Debian Etch's official release (Sarge is two years old, a long time in the Linux world).
'm not sure about reactOS.. the main thing in my mind is that whatever OS platform you choose, it should be open source, so no one company or person can obsolete it, andmake it impossible to develop further, for further use.

ReactOS IS open-source.

We all need to at one point or another find the guts to say Goodbye windows, and Hello freedom!

I feel quite free on Windows 95, thank you.

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Well just to comment on a few of your comments... By being shut out of the web, I mean unintentionally.. like if there's not new development of browsers for the 9x platform ( because of too few users), and new and more advanced viruses and worms etc surfaces, then you WILL be shut out, because it's going to be impossible to use!

I'm not saying w95 is TOTALLY obsolete yet... I'm saying it's starting as with the rest of the 9x platform, gradually... Like you can't get this and that program to install anymore... And don't come with "oh, but I don't have any interest in using that" Because in the end then, you'll be the only one left.

With your reasoning I could say that my commodore 64 is still trucking along.... yeah sure with it's 115 baud modem and geos desktop... but can I use it for ANYTHING productive anymore? Hell no.

Yes, DRM wil get cracked, no doubt. But that's not the problem at stake here, it's TCPA! (Trusted Computing Platform)

A few links for those that haven't read up on it;

http://lafkon.net/tc/

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Compu...atform_Alliance

Vista is the final piece in the puzzle to shut YOU out.

Yes, ok reactOS is open source, but I just questioned if thats the way to go forward... emulating or to be similar to windows... I'm not sure if thats a good long term solution... could be though. Or not.

Yes, I can imagine you feel very free on win 95.... as I also do on commodore 64... to do NOTHING! Which I guess will be your case in 10 years also, if you don't ever migrate to anything other than w95.

Old hardware die out... and those that don't become gradually more incapable of running ever more power hungry applications. New hardware already refuse to install 9x OS's... some do, alot don't. Gradually, none will at all. In the end you'll be forced to either use your old hardware with the old software that exists, and gradually be shut out from the rest of the world in terms of not being able to open documents, no internat capability etc etc. If you can't see that coming, you really need a head examination!

But of course, I'm not saying it's happening all of a sudden... I guess 9x could still be used even 5 years from now, but by then you will have alot less functionality than the rest of the world has, albeit more freedom.

My point is, open source have as today less funcionality, but more freedom. That will gradually change until the point it will have more functionality, and still the same freedom!

Viste on the other hand, will give you perhaps even more functionality, but less and less freedom, til the point where the lack of freedom is percieved as less functionality. By then, it will be even tougher to migrate than it is today.

When would the best time to migrate away from the windows platform exactly be? I can't say for sure... but would it have been easier when we were at the dos level if it was around at that time? I guess so... Will it be harder when pc's have become super complicated dumbed down "content delivery" machines, not educating you to do anything or learning anything about how things work? For sure...

THats also my basic point.. I believe it will become harder to migrate, the longer we wait.

And by the way, I also like ( not love though) my windows... it's their policies and politics I can't stand.

Edited by tilstad
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A short summary of TCP;

It's a small chip in your hardware, (Fritz chip) as of now on the mainboard itself (since about 2003-2004), vga card, etc. Will gradually become implemented into the cpu itself.

It will;

Make microsoft and others able to delete whatever they find illegal on your computer.

Cut out any third party program they don't allow.

Make them able to revoke any document, file, program whatever made on a tcp computer and to every computer those have been distributed to.

Make those that control the fritz chip able to censor ANYTHING they see fit.

If the government demands control over TCP, they will in fact control everything on any pc.

Basicly the ones that controls the fritz chip ( as every pc sold today have), will have ALL control over the pc, and it won't be YOU!

Read the whole FAQ on the second link, after you have done that, come back and THEN argument against this. I bet you'll be stunned.

Edited by tilstad
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The Linux comunity is indeed much more vibrant.

quote

Indeed.

Nix may start hitting brick walls also, due to Win hollywood forcing device manufacturers to release even less information regarding device drivers or fear a law suit. I sincerely hope they are allowed open access all be it without the inbuilt protection information or it smells to much like restrictive practice to me.

Exactly why I'm pressing the issue. If enough users migrate to other open source OS's now, they won't be able to deny information about device drivers as needed to write linux drivers if the customer base is large enough. It will just be a too great profit loss for the content suppliers, if alot of the users are shut out.

But if there's no big migration pretty soon, that may very well become the case, that Linux and *NIX development stalls, and those OS's become obsolete and unusable. And then what...? Well then we will ONLY have microsoft left! And if that happens, it's bye bye to digital freedom to everyone. Screw dos games and win98 apps. This is about something way more important.

Edited by tilstad
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ike if there's not new development of browsers for the 9x platform ( because of too few users)
You're talking through a closed-source mindset. Closed-source browsers will have the problem you mention, not open-source ones. As long as there are people that want to continue Win9x support (like me), it won't happen.
new and more advanced viruses and worms etc surfaces

How is this a problem? I haven't had a virus in years, because I'm not a luser that clicks "Yes" on every download/warning prompt. Also, viruses target newer Windows systems, and services that only exist on those. The only door in Win9x is the browser, and if that door is secured, you're safe. A hardware firewall gives even better protection.

I'm not saying w95 is TOTALLY obsolete yet... I'm saying it's starting as with the rest of the 9x platform, gradually... Like you can't get this and that program to install anymore... And don't come with "oh, but I don't have any interest in using that" Because in the end then, you'll be the only one left.
1) When you use an older OS, you use older software. Except for the browser, as the outside does change.

2) Again, open-source.

With your reasoning I could say that my commodore 64 is still trucking along.... yeah sure with it's 115 baud modem and geos desktop... but can I use it for ANYTHING productive anymore? Hell no.

I doubt it ever really was productive on the web. Aside from that, I don't know what the Commodore 64 could do aside from text processing and Basic, but I'm sure it didn't just lose those abilities.

Yes, I can imagine you feel very free on win 95.... as I also do on commodore 64... to do NOTHING! Which I guess will be your case in 10 years also, if you don't ever migrate to anything other than w95.
Seriously, what are you smoking? The applications I use now won't suddenly vanish in 10 years.
Old hardware die out

True, but that's not an OS problem.

gradually be shut out from the rest of the world in terms of not being able to open documents, no internat capability etc etc. If you can't see that coming, you really need a head examination!
I think the one needing examination is you. Again, the web is built on open standards, and there are open-source browsers. As for documents, that's why open formats exist.
I guess 9x could still be used even 5 years from now, but by then you will have alot less functionality than the rest of the world has, albeit more freedom.

Again, my programs won't disappear.

Exactly why I'm pressing the issue. If enough users migrate to other open source OS's now, they won't be able to deny information about device drivers as needed to write linux drivers if the customer base is large enough.
We are but a small hardcore group of users, just like the current Linux community already is. It won't make a difference.
My point is, open source have as today less funcionality, but more freedom.

You obviously don't know how much is out there.

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Well, I have to say it's hard talking to people who absolutely refuse to see things in a bigger picture than their own small playground.

First off, you totally miss my point! Of course your old w9x apps will still work, as they still do on my commodore 64. THe whole point is; Computer usage CHANGE! If you can't see that fact, oh well, than it's impossible to reach out to you. No, your right, with commodores people usually didn't use the web. Why? Well mostly because no one new about it at the time, and back in 1983 I don't really believe there was much there anyway. You could still have browsers though, it has even been run as a webserver.

THe point is, what we use our computers for change, we and the world around us both demand, and get used to using ever more advanced programs and applications. Old hardware /software can't keep up, and then if you want those new futures, you have to upgrade, one time or another.

But your reasoning is like "Oh no, I like what I have with 9x platform now, and since I do , I never want or need anything else". RIght. As Bill gates said; " No one cumputer user should EVER need any more than 640 kb ram". Right.

And no, I won't rely on you, a single person guaranteeing the usage of future safe web browsing for the 9x platform. Are you insane? Do you think Anyone just would take your word for it just like that? I'm not saying you couldn't, but When you compare all the programming going on in open source compared to what's being done to 9x, that seems more like a joke than anything else.

Ok, to adress some of your comments,

You don't necessarily need to klick "yes" to get a virus, spyware worms etc

"when you use older OS you use older software" Well thats real dandy... when my boss send me an autocad file made in autocad 2007 which wont install on 9x. Ok, I just pop up my autocad 2002 then... but oh no, that can't open that new autocad files anyway... bummer.

Well commodore could at one time edit and run MS documents... today it can't run s***.

No, in 10 years you'll still have w95 and office 97 fully working. But do you really think office 2017 opens up that old documents anymore? It won't, so whats the point of using it then? It is no point!

In a few years your online bank account acces will require you to run a tcpa enabled platform. Oh your hardware don't support it? Too bad, no bank account acces for you anymore then.

Regular dvd's will most certainly ble replaced by hd dvd's. Just like vhs tapes dissapeared. No tcpa? Ok, no movie for you then.

Microsoft office docuements aren't open formats. If it was, I would still be able to use my moms old word perfect, wouldn't I?

No, your programs won't dissapear, or stop work, but they will become useless and pointless having, exept for games and playing that is. I'm not talking about computers as toys here, but as a real tool for productive and educational work. You on the other hand seem content with you pogo or pacman working in 10 years. I'm sure it will. As it still does on most commodores.

By less functionality I mean less programs, popular programs like quake arena, GTA, autocad etc won't install, exept in emulators. If more people used the platform, those programs would be ported there from the beginning by the producer, thats not hard to grasp, is it.

But anyway, I'm tired of trying to convince you there's any point in newer computer systems, because you obviously have decided for yourself what you have now will be good enough for you forever. Exept for the new browser you'll program everytime it needs an update.

To the others following the thread I'd like to urge you to read up on tcpa and try to understand what's coming, and why the microsoft platform is something we should try migrating away from eventually.

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Tilstad,

What you say is true and chilling. I admit.

Personaly my PC usage didn't change in 4 years since I built my w98 machine. But you autocat example is true as is my whife's corel draw.

No corel draw on w98. Most professional software will ever install on w98 and if they still do they won't in a foreseable future.

On the other hand, w98 evoluated fast enough until now. Had w98 stayed the same since 1999, it would be a pretty usuless OS by now indeed.

And what was thought to be impossible on w98 5 years ago is merely a basic update now.

But as you said, big software will probably never install on w98.

But software developers and manufacturers will also have to rethink the notion of OS dependancy and think of making their product non-OS dependant because of the increasing number of poeple using an increasingly various range of alternative OSes as M$ reached a plateau in its Windows developement but others just start to kick off.

I find very pittyful that we must install such and such OSes to run a program. That shouldn't be.

Edited by Fredledingue
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I find very pittyful that we must install such and such OSes to run a program. That shouldn't be.

I totally agree. Most of the software I use is OpenSource or sort of, hence I can use it under Knoppix/... as well.

Try Portaple Apps. :rolleyes:

I just wanted to mention that if people change to Win2k they'll definitively experience a lot of trouble. Since it has the same core as WinNT and WinXP all malware written for those systems will kill them. There is big advantage in using WinME because only the neglected Win98 malware works on it. :thumbup

I use Win98SE (ripped out IE, SESP 2.1, ...) and I experience neither crashes nor hardware incompatibility nor malware, although I don't have a software firewall. This is because I got the nifty brain.exe.

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Alternatives to Windows 98. If you are still running windows 98, and you have all the drivers for your current hardware, and you do not play the latest games that require XP, why search for an alternative. Especially when there is a forum like msfn with some of the best talents on the net?

If you really want to feel safe in the idea that your machine is being protected by updates then Windows 2000 is a good choice, but you might as well run XP and just turn all the stuff you don't want off, or even consider getting to grips with nlite.

There have been a few posts saying that people have tried to run linux and just cant get video to play and its too slow, or windows games/apps don't run. Well to be totally honest most people have a look at the official ubuntu releases, find that lots of things don't work and give up. For those people who like the idea of running linux but really can't be arsed to add codecs, find linux programs, install and configure this and that, there is a version of ubuntu a bit like some of the "FAT" custom windows XP DVDs that are around.

What i'm talking is ubuntu ultimate (xmas edition as it was previously called), made by a guy that wanted to include just about everything possible on one DVD images (1.6gb) The version runs as a live cd that you can install to hard disk if you want. If has almost everything working straight away, DVD's play, AVI's (DIVX or whatnot) play fine, etc etc.

If you are interested take a look here http://ubuntusoftware.info/xmas.html

This edition is based on GNOME, as another user here said its not ideal for a slow machine. If you have a slower machine and want something that performs well, looks nice, has codecs and most programs and fits on a cd-rom give dream linux a try, another VERY good setup http://www.dreamlinux.com.br/english/index.html.

But i hear you say, what about my windows apps/games etc? Well for those of you who dont know about it Crossover office http://www.codeweavers.com/ is a commercial application for linux which allows you to run office 2003, half life 2 and a huge selection of windows programs under linux. Its not perfect but is a lot easier to use and get things working than wine. For those mac people out there, there is a mac version of crossover for x86 versions of mac os, which allows you to run windows apps/games too, office 2003, half life 2 just like the linux version (finally able to use outlook instead of entourage, YAY!)

Sorry about the long post i was bored.

Tom

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Hi,

Yes, DRM wil get cracked, no doubt. But that's not the problem at stake here, it's TCPA! (Trusted Computing Platform)

A few links for those that haven't read up on it;

http://lafkon.net/tc/

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Compu...atform_Alliance

This is beginning to seriously look like George Orwell's "1984". I've only read two of the threads (one wanted Quick Time) and it's a very scary thought!

And by the way, I also like ( not love though) my windows... it's their policies and politics I can't stand.

Agreed and seconded.

waywyrd :o

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