System recovery partition

[Oleg_II]

jaclaz

Interesting reading. But it's not easier than using VFE

[jaclaz]

jaclaz

Interesting reading. But it's not easier than using VFE

Well, no, the idea is similar, the difference is that you can make everything with freeware or Open Source Software.

jaclaz

[Oleg_II]

Confused Both link are about using Ghost and it's not freeware or Open Source Software?

There is a need to have a separate primary DOS partition too.

No need for it using VFE - any partiton type, any file system can be used as a recovery place. No need for third party boot managers - using NT boot menu is enough (and still can use boot managers too).

I'm interested in free application of this kind but I don't know any

Have not heard about free software that at least can save NTFS partition images with high compression and restore images to choosen destinations automatically with a script. I guess there should be some in Linux world but I have not found yet.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Oleg_II

[jaclaz]

What I use is Grub4dos as a boot manager, chainloaded by the normal NTLDR:

http://grub4dos.jot.com/WikiHome

this avoids the need of

There is a need to have a separate primary DOS partition too.

as it can boot an image file, but you can use a one-sector-only replacement MBR, like PARTITA:

http://www.pedrofreire.com/crea1_en.htm

or the newly revamped OS-BS, now renamed mbldr and Open Source:

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=162108

About freeware alternatives to Ghost, in my view, best options are:

Win32

SelfImage

http://selfimage.excelcia.org/

site is down at this moment, get it from here:

http://icculus.org/homepages/kfitzner/selfimage/

http://icculus.org/homepages/kfitzner/self...lfImage-111.zip

DriveimageXL

http://www.runtime.org/dixml.htm

Linux

PARTIMAGE

http://www.partimage.org/Main_Page

Support for NTFS is still tagged as "experimental", but I never had a problem with it.

both following mini-distros use PARTIMAGE as the main tool:

SystemRescueCD

http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page

PING

http://ping.windowsdream.com/

However you hit the nail right on the head, it appears that all freeware apps are slower than Ghost:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=16534

though things have bettered, but of course if your time is precious, I guess you can pay for the Ghost license.

jaclaz

Edited October 14, 2006 by jaclaz

[jim0615]

Heres an idea, how about just a simple script to create the second partition when windows finishes. Then you use a boot manager that allows access with a hot key during bootup. Then have a copy of WinPE on the second partition run a reimaging script.

[Oleg_II]

jaclaz

Thanx! That is very interesting info.

I have not visited all links but Grub4dos seems to do the same thing as I suggested with VFE at boot time: chainloading by the normal NTLDR.

But I have one more method of running VFE

Well, it's probably covered by replacement MBR utilities - when running under Windows VFE tmporary replaces normal MBR with its own. I won't describe one more method using this as it'll be a bit difficult too

I agree that free software is good and I like using it (and using it a lot). Unfortunatelly I have not found the right utility for this purpose.

Frankly speaking I don't like Ghost either

But I like DeployCenter (it was called DriveImage and ImageCenter too)

[Oleg_II]

Maybe I understand it wrongly but Grub4dos can't work on NTFS partitions? Or have some bugs? I read on Chinese blog that NTFS support is going to be dropped because of bugs.

Replacement MBR utilities work one way - they replace MBR once and forewer and are just boot managers. They also can't be used to run image or an EXE on NTFS file system too.

Info from 911cd Forum is very interesting. Maybe usefull for me. The only issue that most programs there are Win32 and how to use them if there is no ready LiveCD nearby?

Unfortuanatelly I can't open some links but I'll definitelly do.

[jaclaz]

Maybe I understand it wrongly but Grub4dos can't work on NTFS partitions? Or have some bugs? I read on Chinese blog that NTFS support is going to be dropped because of bugs.

At the moment, Grub4Dos does work on NTFS, it seems like that tests with Vista NTFS formatted partitions has led to finding some problems, so it has been suggested to NOT use Grub4Dos on NTFS partitions.

The dropping of NTFS support is planned, but not yet implemented, if in the meantime either MS releases some details of NTFS or independent projects like ReactOS will make progresses it is very possible that NTFS support won't be dropped.

However, since something like 12 years, I personally follow the GOOD advice from Gilles Vollant (the authour of Winimage and of BOOTPART) of always having a smallish First Active Primary Partition FAT16 and install NT based system on a Logical Volume inside Extended Partition, and this has saved my data more than once, as it makes MUCH easier to fix the boot "part" (pardon me the pun) when a problem arises. Moreover, as I continue telling everyone (mostly unlistened to ) having the system and data on a Logical Volume is safer if a "dumb" virus strikes, see here:

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=22526

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=33964

Replacement MBR utilities work one way - they replace MBR once and forewer and are just boot managers. They also can't be used to run image or an EXE on NTFS file system too.

Yes, correct, but you can use grldr.mbr instead of the ones I suggested.

The "problem" with grldr.mbr is that it is 6,144 bytes long, so it occupies apart from the MBR sector, also the following 11 "hidden" sectors, this makes it incompatible with a certain number of Commercial utilities that WITHOUT ACTUALLY TELLING YOU use these sectors for storing some data, if I recall correctly, Partition Magic and Acronis are two commonly used ones that have this behaviour.

The two bootmanagers I suggested, besides being Freeware, are contained in MBR 512 bytes.

@jim0615

Yep, that's actuallly the idea behind the WHOLE thread.

For the record, if you want to read the little experiments I did with the help of sisal, starting from here:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...4181&st=603

You'll find an almost complete solution, that of course needs to be custom adapted to your particular setup.

jaclaz

[jim0615]

At the moment, Grub4Dos does work on NTFS, it seems like that tests with Vista NTFS formatted partitions has led to finding some problems, so it has been suggested to NOT use Grub4Dos on NTFS partitions.

The dropping of NTFS support is planned, but not yet implemented, if in the meantime either MS releases some details of NTFS or independent projects like ReactOS will make progresses it is very possible that NTFS support won't be dropped.

However, since something like 12 years, I personally follow the GOOD advice from Gilles Vollant (the authour of Winimage and of BOOTPART) of always having a smallish First Active Primary Partition FAT16 and install NT based system on a Logical Volume inside Extended Partition, and this has saved my data more than once, as it makes MUCH easier to fix the boot "part" (pardon me the pun) when a problem arises. Moreover, as I continue telling everyone (mostly unlistened to ) having the system and data on a Logical Volume is safer if a "dumb" virus strikes, see here:

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=22526

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=33964

What about using a linux boot manager and have the rescue partition on a linux fs so that a virus can't corrupt/infect it. Also use an sd card to hold the partition with the MBR since they have a write protect switch.

Just my random thoughts.

http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_mem...r/adebidecf.asp

Edited October 15, 2006 by jim0615

[Oleg_II]

Not argueing, just my opinion.

I have a few partitions: one primary with my system and three logical on extended partition. My system and my data are on different partions. And I don't care about losing system as soon as I can restore it with nearly all programs and settings from a prepared image in 5 minutes or install it again with Unattended in only 30 minutes

In fact I often restore the system partition from "ideal" image on purpose just to be sure there is no viruses and broken things on my system. As I said it takes only 5 minutes with DeployCenter from clicking on the shortcut in Start menu to reloading in restored Windows. It doesn't hurt because all personal data and even most program settings are on the other partition. Nothing changes, only the system is renewed/revived again.

(I don't even install antivirus software because of this but it's my personal opinion too.)

And of course I make regular backups of my sensitive data to CD or CD-RW using DeployCenter too: I make the image of the entire second partition with all my documents and photoes directly to CD. It takes a bit longer with high compression and image verification options enabled but not more then 15 minutes for 2Gb of data (documents, photoes, archieves).

I don't use Windows versions of DeployCenter and PartitionMagic (and I rarelly use PM at all). Both create boot floppy disks that can be used in VFE or from multiboot CD. So there is no MBR changes I'm not aware of. I admit that VFE change my MBR but only when I run it and this is a temporary change because it backups MBR before running and restores from backup after running (you can watch it yourself). And VFE is not installed in the system - no settings in Registry, no files in system folders, only a few files are placed anywhere on hard drive and a shortcut in the menu.

PS I aslo have a few different images with different Windows: Windows 98SE, Windows 2000 Professional "standard" (with IE and stuff) and W2k HFSLIPed and reduced. Not more then 5 minutes, no phisical boot disks involved and I'm in the OS of my choice

Well, a boot disk image with imaging software is involved in fact

And I forgot to mention that I use NTFS on all partitions as this file system is stable and reliable in my opinion.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Oleg_II

[worldy]

Thanx a lot

Well i am going towards ghost and manual customisation (getting my hand dirty) towards System recovery, i will be using ghost (I am not sure), will be adding a Function key towards that for recovery console. This is going to be done on a fresh / running Windows XP system.

Next phase will be to create, ISO image of Windows XP installation, which automatically runs off the CD/DVD and install Both Windows Xp and the recovery system( this way i dont have to create recovery system every time after windows installation on a new system).

p.s.: If some one has already done so, or is in knowledge of links and how-to's, please guide to wards that for a quickie. Thanx

Thanx a lot Oleg_II and other folks.

Not argueing, just my opinion.

I have a few partitions: one primary with my system and three logical on extended partition. My system and my data are on different partions. And I don't care about losing system as soon as I can restore it with nearly all programs and settings from a prepared image in 5 minutes or install it again with Unattended in only 30 minutes

In fact I often restore the system partition from "ideal" image on purpose just to be sure there is no viruses and broken things on my system. As I said it takes only 5 minutes with DeployCenter from clicking on the shortcut in Start menu to reloading in restored Windows. It doesn't hurt because all personal data and even most program settings are on the other partition. Nothing changes, only the system is renewed/revived again.

(I don't even install antivirus software because of this but it's my personal opinion too.)

And of course I make regular backups of my sensitive data to CD or CD-RW using DeployCenter too: I make the image of the entire second partition with all my documents and photoes directly to CD. It takes a bit longer with high compression and image verification options enabled but not more then 15 minutes for 2Gb of data (documents, photoes, archieves).

I don't use Windows versions of DeployCenter and PartitionMagic (and I rarelly use PM at all). Both create boot floppy disks that can be used in VFE or from multiboot CD. So there is no MBR changes I'm not aware of. I admit that VFE change my MBR but only when I run it and this is a temporary change because it backups MBR before running and restores from backup after running (you can watch it yourself). And VFE is not installed in the system - no settings in Registry, no files in system folders, only a few files are placed anywhere on hard drive and a shortcut in the menu.

PS I aslo have a few different images with different Windows: Windows 98SE, Windows 2000 Professional "standard" (with IE and stuff) and W2k HFSLIPed and reduced. Not more then 5 minutes, no phisical boot disks involved and I'm in the OS of my choice

Well, a boot disk image with imaging software is involved in fact

And I forgot to mention that I use NTFS on all partitions as this file system is stable and reliable in my opinion.

Cool info about system revival, hey tell me, what all make u do so? how come u did this?

But i am discussing about System re-installation, when even Windows dont even boo up, then how come will i get to those programs in "Start Menu"? That is why i am opting for automatic system recovery, (In the start, through some function key and all).

[jaclaz]

What about using a linux boot manager and have the rescue partition on a linux fs so that a virus can't corrupt/infect it.

I think you got this wrong, if I were a virus and wanted to destroy data on your disk I wouldn't care being able to READ actual data (i.e. no need to have a filesystem driver), I would just write "random" values to your hard disk through RAW write access.

Also use an sd card to hold the partition with the MBR since they have a write protect switch.

Yes, this is done in a number of embedded systems, nice idea ,but probably won't work with Win2k/XP, as they usually need Write access to the MBR, but I am not really sure about this , maybe they need this only during installation to write, besides MBR code, the Disk Signature.

The idea of having "expendable" data in the first 1 or 2 Gbyte helps also because it takes time to wipe or write values to a hard disk and there is a possibility of "pulling the plug"....

jaclaz

[Oleg_II]

worldy

1. I'd recommend DeployCenter over Ghost (I like it pursonally and the instructions for running from Windows is for DeployCenter, it will be different for Ghost). But in DOS booting functionality is nearly the same. You choose.

2. For the purposes you specified it's better to use something like WinPE, BartPE, WinBuilder - there is a separate Forum for that. And there are instructions how to automate all operations you asked for: partitioning and installing Windows from these boot CD (that includes installing recovery partion too).

As for using DeployCenter for this purpose (partitioning and formatting) I can give you these two tips:

Tip 1:

You can make simple customized script that partitions a new hard drive into one primary partiton and one extended with a few logical on it. It's complitelly automatic. Remember I said that DeployCenter has some functionality of PartitionMagic? But I'm not sure Ghost can do this.

Tip 2:

- first make three partitions of needed size with needed formatting and file systems on a hard disk;

- make ONE! image of ALL THREE just made partitions to CD with imaging software like DeployCenter or Ghost with high compression;

- when you buy a new disk (doesn't metter how big it is) just restore your empty partitions image on it - it will take seconds and then you'll get three partitions already formatted and ready to go and probably some undefined space on hard disk that you will aquire later from installed Windows.

3. I can run recovery process not only ckicking the shortcut in Start menu but choosing in booting menu. If Windows doesn't boot it will probably at least show booting menu and you can run recovering operations from it choosing "Recover my System" item (remember my instructions about editing BOOT.INI and saving MBR in a file on system disk?).

Or you will have to boot from a rescue floppy disk or CD that is better to prepare in advance with your imaging software on it.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Oleg_II

[Innocent Devil]

So inorder to have a recovery partition, i hav to reserve one of the precious 4 primary partitions ???

i usually install/ reinstall OSes randomly and more than 3 oses (XP, Vista, Linux, Mac OS X)

So i need 3 primary partitions (the rest one is for extended)

means i cant create a rescue partition ???

[Oleg_II]

Innocent Devil

Well, yes. At least you need some place to save your images.

But if you use the method I described with Virtual Floppy Evironment you don't need a primary partion, you can save your images on any partition within extended one.

And if you use it on your own computer like I do you don't even need to make this partion hidden. Just create a folder say "Restore" for images and use the rest of the place as you wish

Edited October 17, 2006 by Oleg_II