How should the Win9x Power Pack be distributed?

[MDGx]

MDGx, do you really think that people who don't know what 7zip is, should handle jimmsta's package? I think that's just asking for trouble.

IMO, one must really know what he's doing, or things might just get screwed up (see the guy that hates Revolutions Pack).

IMHO:

I don't think jimmsta's pack has anything to do with 7-zip knowledge.

I have pointed out that statistically most people [just every-day average computer users, not power-users] use WinZip or other 3rd party (un)zipping tool, and that in comparison, 7-zip popularity is spreading only inside power-users circles, like this one.

Otherwise put: everybody knows the zip format one way or the other, but only a few know or care about 7-zip.

And the purpose of most of these packages [98SE SP2, 98SE2ME, NUSB, 98FE SP2, ME SP2 etc...] is to appeal to everybody, not only to a select audience.

And everybody should be able to install them in just a few steps [mouse clicks or key presses] from an easy to use interface.

Tihiy's RP is a different kind of "beast", requires a little bit of inner M$ OS knowledge [more than the average user has], therefore appeals mostly to power-users, and eventually to those average users who aspire to become power users.

About RP [and similar] haters:

Unfortunately it is built into the human nature to hate/abhor/deny/detest/loathe what we do not understand [re: Galileo Galilei, Nicolaus Copernicus, the inquisition, the crusades etc].

But fortunately, [at least some of us, anyway ] can be taught to understand + grow out of ignorance: power is gained only through knowledge.

HTH

[LLXX]

7-Zip can compress to self-extracting executable which adds only a few kbs to the archive. Under this form no one would need 7-Zip installed at the receiving end.

PS : Using solid mode usually yelds the best compression ratios. Sometimes they are amazing.

I'm rather cautious around executable files, especially huge ones since they take a long time to virusscan, so that might not be the best idea. I unpack most installers manually anyway, to minimize the risk of getting anything infectious.

I recommend the CAB format. The compression is actually superior to 7zip's LZMA as pointed out above, and in addition, every 9x computer already comes with extraction utility and viewer shell extension as well

[azagahl]

> I recommend the CAB format. The compression is actually superior to 7zip's LZMA as pointed out above

This is rarely true. 7z is typically about 10% more compact than CAB LZX:21.

> I'm rather cautious around executable files, especially huge ones since they take a long time to virusscan

A 100 KB installer stub plus a 300 MB compressed block of data takes no longer to scan than a 300 MB compressed archive file.

> I unpack most installers manually anyway, to minimize the risk of getting anything infectious.

You are too scared to run an executable, but have no qualms about dumping someone's DLL's all over your operating system??

If you want this to be easy for newbies, then make an installer. An NSIS installation executable is the best choice IMHO. Note that NSIS supports 7z compression. And if the user wants, they can still extract the contents using some tools like TUGZip / IZArc.

Edited July 12, 2006 by azagahl

[jimmsta]

If you want this to be easy for newbies, then make an installer. An NSIS installation executable is the best choice IMHO. Note that NSIS supports 7z compression. And if the user wants, they can still extract the contents using some tools like TUGZip / IZArc.

This has been my choice, as if you also have 7zip installed, you can easily unzip the package anyway. - I've already set up an NSIS script, and have tested it on a 98SE install. It works fine, and is still geared towards whoever wants to use my package.

No, it will not be out today. I'm waiting on the Unofficial Windows Me Service Pack, which, unless released by Friday, will not be included in this release... I just wanted to release this sooner than later.

[Drugwash]

I'm rather cautious around executable files, especially huge ones since they take a long time to virusscan, so that might not be the best idea. I unpack most installers manually anyway, to minimize the risk of getting anything infectious.

That is exactly my reason too.

A 100 KB installer stub plus a 300 MB compressed block of data takes no longer to scan than a 300 MB compressed archive file.

Correct, but that is only if the scanning has been triggered. Most antivirus software do a smart scanning as real-time protection; this includes executables -- self-extract archives fall into this category --and some types of documents, but rarely usual archives. Also, most times, even on a powerful machine, the system chokes when a massive file is being scanned, be it only when you explore the folder containing it, which is unpleasant, to say the least.

Having the package as a simple archive would allow the user to unpack and scan the desired modules only, which would obviously take much less time and would eliminate the choke(s).

You are too scared to run an executable, but have no qualms about dumping someone's DLL's all over your operating system??

If the level of paranoia would reach that high, nobody would ever install any application and probably even the operating system itself wouldn't be installed, in the first place.

Being cautious is not a bad thing. It is possible that one has a yet unknown infection, and having the executable package infected on his system, storing it on an optical medium and possibly distributing it around could unknowingly infect other users.

Bottom line is - if possible - try to distribute it in both noob form (that is, executable installer) and power-user form (that is, simple archive, whatever type).

If I may, personally I use Total Commander as my file manager of choice, and the external commandline archivers linked to it plus the 7zip, ISO and other plug-ins, allow me to handle a vast variety of archives as if they were folders: just a double-click on the file, select the desired files/folders from it and drag'em to the other panel. SFX archives also supported by menu item File > Unpack.

[jimmsta]

I've done it before, and I'll do it again - I'll release two different versions. I'll also post the MD5 of each, just to be sure that the files don't get tampered with.

[LLXX]

You are too scared to run an executable, but have no qualms about dumping someone's DLL's all over your operating system??

Quite obviously I inspect them, but inspecting at most several MB of files is a much more pleasant task than several hundred MB. Also, self-extractors can get infected, while archives can't. They do not contain executable code that is run when the archive is opened, unlike a self-extractor.

[eidenk]

I just found a new tool to make self-extracting 7z archives out of normal 7z archives that seems more featured than the default tool built in 7-Zip.

http://freeweb.siol.net/razor256/xss/

I am not too keen on NSIS installers because they are notoriously difficult if not impossible to unpack.

Well I know there is a Total commander plugin who purportedly does it but I don't have Total Commander.

[jimmsta]

7zip v4.42 is able to unpack NSIS installers now. I'll take a look at that tool you mentioned.

[eidenk]

7zip v4.42 is able to unpack NSIS installers now.

Thanks to let me know that.

[jimmsta]

hrm... my day didn't go as planned. Our electric company decided to pull the plug when I got home from work @ 6pm... the power came back on 2 hours later. I've been working the past 1.5hrs on putting finishing touches on the package. As of right now, I'm testing out various compression formats. Something seems to be amiss with my 7zip installation, as it keeps telling me that 7zip isn't implemented (also reinstalled, same problem ).

I'm VERY familiar with 7zip's console app 7za.exe, as I use it on my other compilation (http://bht.jimmsta.com), to update things like Adaware, and various other tools.

I had never touched NSIS before this project, but after using it, will probably use it for BHT in the future, as it's a great tool, especially for those of us that are still using batch files to do our dirty work (patching releases, downloading apps from the web/patches).

Ah! the first compressed file is done, I used RAR @ Best settings. The compressed file is: 214mb, which is a mere 4mb smaller than the uncompressed version ... As I have said earlier, I was rather sure that it wouldn't compress down that much, since most of the files are already compressed in some fashion. This includes DirectX, and IE6SP1. I think I'll be repacking both using that easySFX utility, and see if that can get the filesize down a bit more.

Seeing as the old version (v3.0) was 346mb, I have to say that 130mb downsized is a big improvement, but I'd like to see something a bit better, considering that I'm a minimalist when it comes down to software...

edit: good thing I did go back and check out the IE installer... looks like I might have made a big bug - I seem to have compressed the file over again, for no reason. I'm repacking it right now, and will use EasySFX to create the SFX....

edit 2: EasySFX doesn't work. I managed to get 7zip working again (don't ask me why it wasn't working before - I have no idea). I'm back @ square 1... I'll be searching for easy sfx/installer apps for 7zip or something...

edit 3:

After searching the net a bit, I found that there's a file available on 7zip's sourceforge file archive called 7z442_extra.tar.bz2. Included are the building blocks to create an installer based on 7zip. All you need to do is find instructions, which I've located in google's cache, here: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache%3AvzEy...sfx%20installer

Edited July 13, 2006 by jimmsta

[jimmsta]

mods: please delete.

Edited July 13, 2006 by jimmsta

[jimmsta]

It's DONE!

I'm uploading the file to personal hosting first. I'll be upping an anti-leech script to keep that up for the initial blow.

I'll be contacting Tim or Jim @ majorgeeks.com so they can mirror it, and will attempt getting more hosting from whereever else (torrent, eDonkey, etc).

MD5 Checksum: 47B1A26D8B272A2250FD5B73A2AD445B

File Name: W9xPPv4.exe

This information will be reposted in a new thread tommorow. I jumped the gun tonight, and had to retest a bunch of the included files to ensure that everything is right.

The file size is the same as the first final build. I promise this is it. It's uploading now (1:52AM EST).

(212MB 7zip SFX w/Installer -- Can be extracted by WinRAR or 7Zip's File Manager, or you can run it, and it will extract to a temp folder on your system.)

It should be ready tommorow morning for download. This development cycle has been a pain, but its all been worth it. I've learned a new SFX packaging scheme, which I will be using quite a bit in the future.

A new thread will be opened tommorow with more information. Check back around 9AM EST to 6pm EST. I have no idea when I'll be able to post...

Edited July 13, 2006 by jimmsta

[jimmsta]

My webserver seems to dislike 200mb files being FTP'd to it, or it keeps failing or something...

The file will be here: http://repository.jimmsta.com/w9xpp/index....tegory&id=1 when its done.

Today has been a much busier day than I expected it to be. I also have to build a system when I get home...

I'm still @ work until 7pm EST. Then I'll head home, build a system, eat some dinner, and re-upload the file while doing all that stuff...

[FoxHound]

I know this may sound stupid for expert coders and programers and such...but why not merge it with Unofficial Service Pack(fututre Releases...if any).This way...people don't have to download many files tp update their Windows...Instead Merge it into a nice package and compress it in .rar format the .exe.