Same XP install on 2 hard drives, legal?

[haryo]

I have an HP laptop with XP home on it. I want to take out the hard drive, temporarily put in another, and reinstall the operating system on it so that if the first drive dies I can just put in the 2nd one and carry on. I would also use the 2nd drive as a usb accessed back of my critical data. I would have 2 drives with operating systems tied to the same key code. Can I do this without running into registration problems? I have tried to clone the original drive, but it's not going well and just doing a clean install in the 2nd drive seems like a way to go.

Thanks, R. Young

[doodr]

Technically, as long as you never have both of those harddrive booted and running the same version, i cannot see any thing illegal with having it installed on 2 drives for backup reasons. just my thought though, might call ms and ask?

[haryo]

I've just sent them an email enquiry/question. I'm visiting in the UK, so I sent it to the MS UK folks. There seem to be fewer hurdles over here to jump over to be able to send them a simple email.

[Plamdi]

I can't see anything potentially illegal about doing that. You're installing on the same system, so what does it matter if you've got your copy installed once, twice, or several times? It's only ever going to be possible to boot into one at a time...

[lostsailor]

thank you

[zedox]

If it is illegal then alot of people who have RAID 1 setups are buggered!

[CLASYS]

Here's an answer that you probably never expected:

Since you mention this is an HP machine, that means it uses an SLP key. In essence, if one understands all of what that implies, it is possible to completely reinstall an infinite amount of times without anyone or anything the wiser.

This is one of those things where the enforcement is weaker than the license would allow. No actual piracy is even possible, unless one has a slightly older HP machine, since it would only work on the original and such a contrived machine [that you probably don't even want XP on due to being too slow!]

All that said, there is a more fundamental issue here:

It is totally true that XP is NOT a self-sufficient system! If you are foolish enough to think otherwise, ponder the following actual case history that has cropped up more than once in our "modern" era of too-smart viruses:

A system got malwared and virtually every anti-spyware/malware program anyone ever heard of was run, and some nasties were detected and even eliminated. Eventually, all of them proclaimed the system to be totally free of problems.

Only one problem: It was a lie!

A really, really nasty virus had attached itself to Svchost.exe in such a nasty way that it stealthily was there and nothing could find it!

The way it was found was by installing another system on another partition. The infected partition appears as a data-only drive to that maintenance system. Running Trend Micro Housecall on the maintenance system quickly identified the problem. Removing the infected file and replacing it with a stock one totally fixed the problem, etc.

The only way to even have a maintenance system comes down to one of only a few cases:

1) Create an illegal maintenance partition [and deal with the consequences/limitations].

2) Buy the software twice for use on the same hardware one at a time. Even though the second one is only used when the first one is not running, and only then for limited purposes, since the maintenance system cannot access the installed programs on the other/main system.

1) sounds unethical, but is 2) ethical, essentially doubling MS's profits?

If SLP considerations aren't relevant, AND you know what you are doing, it IS possible to create a solution that doesn't involve 2) and creatively brings up the issue about just what 1) means:

Install XP, but not the way most people do so [and ultimately it's just a bad habit, since it buys you nothing but "familiarity" to do it the usual way; I generally avoid that!]. The answer is multiple partitions. Create a tiny C: drive. 39 MB will do fine. Ultimately it can be trimmed down to the minimum 7.8 MB with Partition Magic after the fact if you are a fanatic. [The install requires 30-odd MB on C: but only about 1 MB after installation; the minimum one-cylinder partition is 7.8 MB on a modern HD, etc.]

Install your intended XP on a higher-still drive. I use G: because I define F: as a maintenance partition. The others along the way are defined for other purposes outside of the overall method, but you might want to create these other special-purpose partitions along the way, etc. In any case, it is necessary to create a small dummy partition eventually somewhere before the F: drive, so you have to leave a space for it, but at this point, do NOT create it, just the empty space [again, need only be 7.8 MB].

At this point, the G: drive gets the normal XP installation, and the F: drive is visible to the system as F:. Boot.ini is created to count partitions from the beginning and correctly identifies which partition it is, etc.

Now, using a variety of methods, clone the contents of G: onto F: and you have a copy of the system which will NOT boot [not yet!]. [Do this after all activation considerations!]

Your main system is the G: system and the F: system is your maintenance partition. How to make it boot?

Now make that dummy partition someplace after C: and before F:. Edit BOOT.INI to make the system bootable again, so that the overall partition head count is accounted for, since BOOT.INI merely counts partitions, not unhidden partitions, ANY partitions count.

Or, leave BOOT.INI alone. In which case, F: is NOT F:, it is G:! If you want the overall reckoning of drive letters to be perfect, make sure that the dummy is hidden when your main system is in use, and non-hidden when the maintainence function temporarily transforms F: into logically G: which is needed to make that work. [in XP only, all works fine even though the former F: drive is a cloned G: drive; there just isn't an F: drive in the maintenance mode if the volume remains hidden. But, if you like consistency, unhide the dummy during maintenence operations and it becomes F:, assuming it's physically located just before the main F:/G: partition, etc.]

Or better yet, make an entry for both systems in BOOT.INI and choose which to use every time. [Again, notwithstanding the fact that unless you change the status of the dummy partition, there will a discrepancy on one lesser volume depending on whether it's hidden or not.]

Note that this method does NOT work on two C: drives unless you can convince it that the "other" one is visible while one is booted, especially when the maintenance copy is in effect. The point is not to get the maintenance system booted, but to get it booted and also to "see" the main system partition as a data [non-boot] drive. [My method has the added bonus that the main sees the maint as a data drive as well.]

A side advantage of doing it this way is that C: has static contents; if you suspect malware, just replace the partition; the files should fit on a diskette. Certainly as a small .GHO image, etc.

In any case, the overall idea is to circumvent MS's heavy-handed approach where to prevent piracy at all costs, you have to pay twice to use it once at a time, unless you resort to a method they might cry foul to in various degrees depending on just how you circumvented this particular aspect of "piracy". If MS wised up, they would allow an alternate method where an alternate installation on another partition checked and found that having a "twin" system was not a problem on the same exact machine.

cjl

[haryo]

Part of my question is around activation. If I carry the installation process on the 2nd drive through the activation process, will I get red flagged by microsoft since I activated the install a year ago on the 1st drive?

Alternately, my assumption is that if I don't go as far as attempting activation, and just use the 2nd drive for backing up misc data, I won't get the activation prompts when the system sees the 2nd drive as an external usb drive - but I will if I ever put the 2nd drive in and boot from it?

[TravisO]

Youc second copy, because it is on the same PC (or not in use in storage) is technically a backup and doesn't violate your license agreement. Of course if you truly wanted a solid backup solution, you would do a nightly ghost of your drive and save your Ghost image to another drive.

[CLASYS]

Part of my question is around activation. If I carry the installation process on the 2nd drive through the activation process, will I get red flagged by microsoft since I activated the install a year ago on the 1st drive?

Alternately, my assumption is that if I don't go as far as attempting activation, and just use the 2nd drive for backing up misc data, I won't get the activation prompts when the system sees the 2nd drive as an external usb drive - but I will if I ever put the 2nd drive in and boot from it?

SLP copies don't get activated because they are OEM/SLP. Are you saying you installed XP Home yourself on a machine that did NOT have XP Home before?

If the copy is an OEM-non-SLP type, there is no guarantee that the reactivation will work [regular OEM, as opposed to SLP do need activation, just like retail full/upgrade types do]. OEM copies have no way to tell MS manually/easily because you aren't supposed to be moving the licensed copy to another machine, etc. [i suppose you could argue with them, such as your disk and motherboard and NIC all got replaced at once, but it's still "the same machine" etc. In any case, MS wants us to be "policeman" and refuse to even attempt to move a licensed copy to a "different" machine. The problem is the spin in what constitutes a "new" machine. It would appear that if you WANT to be on a new machine, just get a "new" hard disk, CPU upgrade, and/or motherboard. But if you want to be on a REPAIRED old system, then you have to argue that it was mandatory due to damage, and the more stuff that still is the same the better; this includes hard disk volume ID, NIC address, which are factors you may have some control of. Of course if your primary NIC is part of the motherboard you replaced, you are probably SOL on all three, leaving only the hard disk voume ID on the system partition, which is NOT necessarily drive C:; that';s where BOOT.INI must be; the system partition is where the \winnt or \windows partition is, etc. and of course for some they are one and the same, etc.]

In any of the other activation-worthy scenarios, you have a perfect right to tell them you reinstalled the software; any actual hardware similarities would vindicate you. Obviously, if you reformatted your hard drive [as opposed to merely emptying it and/or truly cloning it] the related points of similarity that trigger a reactivation would be different.

In essence, activation goes something like this:

No need to reactivate if enough "fingerprints" are identical; the ones that change are adapted into what is expected next time. I think the time period for this "growing process" is something like 90 days or so; this alllows you to slowly reconfigure your machine.

As long as you have some lower threshold of similarities, the activation process needs to be performed explicitly, but it will succeed. This is where you may be making a phone call to India; be prepared to tell them you are reinstalling on the same machine. That a few points of similarity still exist means they will find you credible.

If you have few to none, there could be a problem, but if that's the case, AND it's a retail copy, then your position is that the machine it was originally activated on doesn't actually exist [anymore, in the original form that is], and you "forgot" that you had your box major-upgraded and didn't realize you needed to tell them that, sorry!

So, unless this is an OEM copy, i.e., it is a legal retail full or upgrade, don't sweat a reactivation.

And again, HP machines are subject to SLP, unless of course you never got a copy of XP with that box and this is an upgrade/replacement of a former system.

cjl

ps: If you are truly cloning the system, that means you are moving the [i think .DBL stuff] current activation file. On every boot it checks to see if reactivation is needed because the system is now different "enough" to go through the process again [but will succeed if still close enough, just no longer close enough to not need reactivation]. If you really cloned it and there aren't any other changes, it should pass with either disk. [i don't know if the hard disk ID itself is a fingerprint, just the Volume ID; you can't change the former, but the latter you can clone!]

[Camarade_Tux]

If it is illegal then alot of people who have RAID 1 setups are buggered!

AFAIK, windows licences depend on the number of processors.

I remember MS said it wouldn't ask for a more expensive licences for computers running dual-core systems.

So IMHO you can install it on as many computers as long as they're not all on at the same time.

btw, your answer is in windows's EULA (good luck )

[LLXX]

Don't worry about it. You bought the software, it's on your own computer, and you're not selling or giving away copies to others. M$ won't care about what they do not have control over.

Edited April 13, 2006 by LLXX

[chilifrei64]

here is my 2 cents...

At work we are working on a disaster recovery project which includes cold standby servers... Even though the cold standby servers are not turned on, used, or plugged in, I cannot legally have Xp installed on those second machines (I am using OpenVolume) unless I have purchased software assurance. If I has software assurance, that is covered under the license agreement. This came directly from a MS support rep that I called to get information.

Now I know the situation is a little different than mine but i just figured I would throw that in there as extra insight

[Valerie]

I don't know if this is relevant, here is a discussion on the usages of one copy of OEM software on different hard drives. While it's probably intended for OEM builders it might be of interest..

[haryo]

RE: "SLP copies don't get activated because they are OEM/SLP.

Are you saying you installed XP Home yourself on a machine

that did NOT have XP Home before?"

Now that you mention it, I can't swear to the fact that I was required to go through the activation process. It was a new laptop with XP installed. Guess I'll just try to install the operating system on the second drive and see what happens. I've read up on what SLP software is and I'm beginning to get the picture.

Is there some freeware with which I can easily make my usb external 2.5" drive a clone of my internal drive? I have tried Norton Ghost but ran into problems,the nature of which I can't recall exactly, but may have appeared when I put the clone in and the laptop became confused. I realise I'm not being very helpful in providing detials, but it has been a while.

Edited April 14, 2006 by haryo