Is the Xbox 360 a computer?

[nmX.Memnoch]

Ok...cache was the wrong term because they really are two different things. Cache holds recent/common processes/instructions so they can be called again quickly, where a buffer holds data that is waiting to be sent somewhere (either into the GPU to be processed, or has been processed and is waiting to be sent to the display). I just used to term "L2 Cache" as an example to try to give people an idea of where the memory is in relation to the GPU itself. It's embedded into the GPU die like today's L2 caches are on CPUs. On desktop video cards the memory is located on the card with the GPU, but not within the GPU die itself.

As you mentioned, it is very expensive to implement..which is why we haven't seen it on desktop GPUs yet. I know that both major players in the 3D GPU market have been working on a cost effective way to implement it though.

The following is from an XBox 360 artical on The Tech Report from last year:

Embedded DRAM for "free" antialiasing

The GPU won't be using system memory itself quite as much as one might expect, because it packs 10MB of embedded DRAM right on the package. In fact, the Xbox 360 GPU is really a two-die design, with two chips in a single package on a single substrate. The parent die contains the GPU and memory controller, while the daughter die consists of the 10MB of eDRAM and some additional logic. There's a high-speed 2GHz link between the parent and daughter dies, and Feldstein noted that future revisions of the GPU might incorporate both dies on a single piece of silicon for cost savings.

The really fascinating thing here is the design of that daughter die. Feldstein called it a continuation of the traditional graphics pipeline into memory. Basically, there's a 10MB pool of embedded DRAM, designed by NEC, in the center of the die. Around the outside is a ring of logic designed by ATI. This logic is made up of 192 component processors capable of doing the basic math necessary for multisampled antialiasing. If I have it right, the component processors should be able to process 32 pixels at once by operating on six components per pixel: red, green, blue, alpha, stencil, and depth. This logic can do the resolve pass for multisample antialiasing right there on the eDRAM die, giving the Xbox 360 the ability to do 4X antialiasing on a high-definition (1280x768) image essentially for "free"—i.e., with no appreciable performance penalty. The eDRAM holds the contents of all of the back buffers, does the resolve, and hands off the resulting image into main system memory for scan-out to the display.

[Press any key]

".....The Xbox 360 is just a gamecomputer dude, not a supercomputer...."

Remember, it's a game machine because it's called a game machine, and you have been conditioned from birth to accept

that. Just as you are conditioned to accept that a PC is a PC. What's in a name?

I admit I smoke. I'm old and the terrible effects were not known when I was young. Saying this because I went to buy a

tobacco pouch at 'Men's Biz' and it was plastic with a plastic lining and named a 'tobacco pouch'. It was $40.00. So I

went to 'Red Dot' discount stores and got the same thing, in nice brown, and it cost $2.00. BUT IT WAS CALLED A PENCIL CASE!!!!

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU

* Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each

* Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total

That would be a = 19.2 Ghz = processor, would it. Is this the same as Apple Mac. Do Hollywood special effects dept.'s only use Apple?

".... The CPU isn´t that good and as far as I know it´s a RISC based CPU made for only calculations and not a instructions processor like we have in our computers (although the are mixed now, some RISC processor parts are now included). ..."

Isn't all a computer does is calculations? It's either ON or OFF. 0 or 1. That's all a transistor can do - switch on or off. But they're got a 165-million transistor, multi-core processor running three 3.2-GHz PowerPC cores. So you can turn on and off in a lot of combinations!

"... Listen, 21.6GB/s is throughput, no speed in MHz.

DDR2-667 PC2-5300, 333 MHz, 5.3 GB/s in single mode, 10.6 GB/s double mode

DDR2-800 PC2-6400, 400 MHz, 6.4 GB/s in single mode, 12.8 GB/s double mode

Still is has 2 times the throughput as DDR2 I know, but DDR2-1066 is also out ..."

I think I'll take the throughput ... that can move some serious s***.

".... Other hardware isn’t special at all in the Xbox 360, believe me ..."

Microsoft devised a cooling system that combines a small, vacuum-sealed, liquid-cooled system with fans to maintain a comfortable temperature inside the 360. The system regulates the temperature of the cores and adjusts the flow of liquid and fan speed accordingly. Additionally, the cooling system monitors the core's workload: If one or more cores are

not needed for the job at hand (for instance, if you were using the Xbox 360 to watch a DVD), then the unused cores are automatically turned off.

To COOL 19.2 Ghz. What do you have? Your 3.2 Ghz immersed in vegetable oil. Or a huge leaf blower - that sounds like you're taxying down a runway?

"... 10MB of L2 cache is big and pretty expensive, you know that the latest Intel CPUs have 4MB and they cost a lot more then the 2MB version. .."

Then why is the Xbox 360 so cheap? Make money selling games. Can't you make money selling app. software?

".... Also, the XBox 360 has only 512MB of RAM so why would they use that 10MB as a L2 cache? ..."

Because the RAM is only half-cocked, while the cache is fully-cocked. But actually it is RAM-on-the-chip. Unbelievable.

".. can´t change parts of the Xbox and with the PC I can, making the PC more interesting .."

Maybe they'd let you if it was an app PC. You can rip the HD off the outside of the top though, and add size.

-------------------

The Xbox 360 has an Ethernet port to hook up to a broadband connection, as well as a slot for a WiFi card. The 360 is WiFi-ready "out of the box" and the bundle includes an connectivity Ethernet cable.

The Xbox 360 comes standard with both composite and component video connections to hook up to a TV. There are also optional connections for S-Video and VGA, and the console supports some SCART-type adapters used in Europe. The Xbox 360 Console System includes a standard-definition AV cable, while the Xbox 360 bundle comes with an AV HD cable and a media remote.

The Xbox 360 has multi-channel surround sound that supports 256 channels of 48 KHz, 16-bit digital audio. The 32-bit audio processing is handled by the CPU. One of the most talked about new audio features of the Xbox 360 is customizable soundtracks. No matter what video game you are playing, you can play or stream your music during gameplay.

In keeping with the idea that the Xbox 360 is a full media center, it sports a 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM that can read DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD and JPEG Photo CD. The 360 does not, however, support Blu-ray.

--------------------

The GPU

Another powerful asset in the Xbox 360 is the Graphics Processor Unit (GPU). The Xbox 360 boasts the new, custom-built 500-MHz ATI Graphics Processor card with 10 MB of embedded DRAM. While the 500-MHZ graphics processor is powerful, and 10 MB of DRAM provides ample memory for the GPU to do its job, the most innovative thing about this card is that it is built on unified shader architecture.

Shaders are computer programs that determine the final look of what you see on the screen when you're looking at computer animation. Shaders take rendered 3-D objects that are built on polygons (the building blocks of 3-D animation) and make them look more realistic. There are two types of shaders: pixel shaders and vertex shaders.

Pixel shaders can be used to alter the lighting, color and surface of each pixel. This in turn affects the overall color, texture and shape of 3-D objects built from these pixels. Pixel shaders help to "smooth out" 3-D objects, giving them a more organic texture. To learn more about pixel shaders.

Vertex shaders work by manipulating an object's position in 3-D space. "Vertex" refers to the intersection of two coordinates in space. You would map the position of an animated object in 3-D space by giving it a value. These values are the x, y and z coordinates. By anipulating these variables, a vertex shader can create realistic animation and special effects such as "morphing." To read more about vertex shaders, see What are Gouraud shading and texture mapping in 3-D video games?

In real-time graphics, like the kind you see in video games, shaders work with the graphics processor. The shaders make billions of computations a second in order to perform their specific tasks. These computations are worked in steps over a series of computational components. Think of an assembly line. In the world of hardware, these assembly lines are called pipelines.

Traditionally, pixel shaders and vertex shaders have dedicated pipelines because each one has very specific and differing needs. As we learned before, the new ATI graphics card in the Xbox 360 has unified shader architecture. What that means is that now, both shader types share the same pipelines. ATI figured out a way at the hardware level to address the needs of both types of shaders using the same pipeline.

The apparent advantage of sharing pipelines is to add more assembly lines, making computation that much faster. ATI claims that this unified shader architecture allows for 48 billion shader operations per second. The Xbox 360 is the first device to use this type of architecture.

That's some serious s*** ...

Last, but not least, I don't have one. Can't get into games. There seems to be an age cut off where you cannot participate anymore.

[LLXX]

".... The CPU isn´t that good and as far as I know it´s a RISC based CPU made for only calculations and not a instructions processor like we have in our computers (although the are mixed now, some RISC processor parts are now included). ..."

In the beginning, RISC design was actually not meant for high performance. Engineers figured that a CPU with fewer and simpler instructions design could be fabricated at a lower cost than one with a more complicated instruction set. A simpler design also means that clock frequencies could be raised above those of CISC chips, since clock propagation delays would be reduced and more manageable. This raised clock frequency would then compensate for one of the main flaws of RISC design - their inferior instruction density compared to CISCs. However, in reality RISC chips aren't clocked as high as they should theoretically be, so their performance isn't as good as expected. The PowerPC cores are good, but running at the same speed as an equivalent late-model CISC x86 like AMD, the CISC will provide higher performance.

Microsoft devised a cooling system that combines a small, vacuum-sealed, liquid-cooled system with fans to maintain a comfortable temperature inside the 360. The system regulates the temperature of the cores and adjusts the flow of liquid and fan speed accordingly.

It's just a heatpipe and a regulated fan. Nothing special about that.

The Xbox 360 has an Ethernet port to hook up to a broadband connection, as well as a slot for a WiFi card. The 360 is WiFi-ready "out of the box" and the bundle includes an connectivity Ethernet cable.

So does my computer.

The Xbox 360 comes standard with both composite and component video connections to hook up to a TV. There are also optional connections for S-Video and VGA, and the console supports some SCART-type adapters used in Europe. The Xbox 360 Console System includes a standard-definition AV cable, while the Xbox 360 bundle comes with an AV HD cable and a media remote.

So does my computer's video card.

The Xbox 360 has multi-channel surround sound that supports 256 channels of 48 KHz, 16-bit digital audio. The 32-bit audio processing is handled by the CPU. One of the most talked about new audio features of the Xbox 360 is customizable soundtracks. No matter what video game you are playing, you can play or stream your music during gameplay.

No-one has 256 speakers

In keeping with the idea that the Xbox 360 is a full media center, it sports a 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM that can read DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD and JPEG Photo CD. The 360 does not, however, support Blu-ray.

My computer can do that too.

All I see the Xbox 360 as is a special-purpose computer suited to gaming graphics. Everything else is quite ordinary.

[puntoMX]

All I see the Xbox 360 as is a special-purpose computer suited to gaming graphics. Everything else is quite ordinary.

LLXX, try to explain that to Press any key .

Press any key, You are mixing up things, try to stay in this world altrough I know it´s hard. I wonder if I still keep up to date when I have your age . Keep it cool and don´t play to much with the crocs B), better to join us at a deathmatch of Half Life 2.

[jago_lfn]

Higher capacity hard disk

Last i checked the 360 only had a 20 gig hard drive with a 40 gig addon you can buy. Thats not higer capacity vs the 250gb and 200gb drives i have in my computer. They even make 500gb drives. If you are refering to differences between the original xbox and the 360 then yeah it's a higher capacity.

[Press any key]

".... The CPU isn´t that good and as far as I know it´s a RISC based CPU made for only calculations and not a instructions processor like we have in our computers (although the are mixed now, some RISC processor parts are now included). ..."

In the beginning, RISC design was actually not meant for high performance. Engineers figured that a CPU with fewer and simpler instructions design could be fabricated at a lower cost than one with a more complicated instruction set. A simpler design also means that clock frequencies could be raised above those of CISC chips, since clock propagation delays would be reduced and more manageable. This raised clock frequency would then compensate for one of the main flaws of RISC design - their inferior instruction density compared to CISCs. However, in reality RISC chips aren't clocked as high as they should theoretically be, so their performance isn't as good as expected. The PowerPC cores are good, but running at the same speed as an equivalent late-model CISC x86 like AMD, the CISC will provide higher performance.

What do you use your PC for? Not graphics and sound?

Microsoft devised a cooling system that combines a small, vacuum-sealed, liquid-cooled system with fans to maintain a comfortable temperature inside the 360. The system regulates the temperature of the cores and adjusts the flow of liquid and fan speed accordingly.

It's just a heatpipe and a regulated fan. Nothing special about that.

Is that a hollow heatpipe vacuum-sealed, liquid-cooled? Or just a lump of copper?

The Xbox 360 has an Ethernet port to hook up to a broadband connection, as well as a slot for a WiFi card. The 360 is WiFi-ready "out of the box" and the bundle includes an connectivity Ethernet cable.

So does my computer.

Then it's a computer.

The Xbox 360 comes standard with both composite and component video connections to hook up to a TV. There are also optional connections for S-Video and VGA, and the console supports some SCART-type adapters used in Europe. The Xbox 360 Console System includes a standard-definition AV cable, while the Xbox 360 bundle comes with an AV HD cable and a media remote.

So does my computer's video card.

Your video card supports HIGH DEFINITION?

The Xbox 360 has multi-channel surround sound that supports 256 channels of 48 KHz, 16-bit digital audio. The 32-bit audio processing is handled by the CPU. One of the most talked about new audio features of the Xbox 360 is customizable soundtracks. No matter what video game you are playing, you can play or stream your music during gameplay.

No-one has 256 speakers

Thats 256 channels of 48 KHz, 16-bit digital audio..

In keeping with the idea that the Xbox 360 is a full media center, it sports a 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM that can read DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD and JPEG Photo CD. The 360 does not, however, support Blu-ray.

My computer can do that too.

Then it's a computer.

All I see the Xbox 360 as is a special-purpose computer suited to gaming graphics. Everything else is quite ordinary.

Graphics and sound are what I wish to do. At 19.2 Ghz - with the addition of 8 Mb of Ram and a 250 Mb Hard Disk. (1 Gb for each core and 2 Gb for the swap file. And I know 250 Mb is not available at 2.5" at present.)

All I see the Xbox 360 as is a special-purpose computer suited to gaming graphics. Everything else is quite ordinary.

LLXX, try to explain that to Press any key .

Press any key, You are mixing up things, try to stay in this world altrough I know it´s hard. I wonder if I still keep up to date when I have your age . Keep it cool and don´t play to much with the crocs B), better to join us at a deathmatch of Half Life 2.

I'd rather have the future world today. Wouldn't you? All that's needed is an OS to take advantage of the features.

[puntoMX]

Press any key,

What´s the deal here? Yes it´s a computer, yes you can write your own OS for it, yes it´s better then your computer at home b/c it has better specs, and NO, even the XBox360 doesn´t have HD-TV support (100%) but I´m sure you can do more with a normal computer a.k. 2006.

So, start to rebuild the XBox to the computer you like and tell us about it please .

[Press any key]

Press any key,

What´s the deal here? Yes it´s a computer, yes you can write your own OS for it, yes it´s better then your computer at home b/c it has better specs, and NO, even the XBox360 doesn´t have HD-TV support (100%) but I´m sure you can do more with a normal computer a.k. 2006.

So, start to rebuild the XBox to the computer you like and tell us about it please .

I just did. Above..

Xbox 360 High Definition FAQ

, Wednesday 26 October 2005 16:52:29

I posted this on Team Xbox because of the rampant confusion regarding the high definition capabilities of the Xbox 360. Figured it could get some play here as well.

## Q. Is it true that I _have_ to use a high definition television with the Xbox 360? ##

A. __This is false__. The Xbox 360 supports many different connections to many types of televisions, from composite connections for standard televisions to component and VGA connections for high definition televisions and computer monitors.

## Q. Do all games for the Xbox 360 support high definition? ##

A. __Yes, all games that are genuine Xbox 360 titles must support at least 720p__. Following the October 25th relaunch of Xbox.com there were several games including _Oblivion_ and _NBA2K6_ that had pages stating that they supported 480i. This is a bit of misinformation or oversight that will be corrected soon. Every indication from Microsoft is that _every_ game that is _ever_ released for the platform _must_ support at least 720p.

*Read the full details by clicking this link.

http://www.coldforged.org/archives/2005/10...-definition-faq

---------------------------

Many gamers, not unlike yourself, are ready for the Xbox 360 but do not have a HDTV nor do they knew what to look for to maximize their investment. There are so many options out there that choosing the right set for your lifestyle can be overwhelming. So HD Beat presents the HDTV Buying Guide: Xbox 360 edition.

Things to consider

The 360 itself needs to be considered when looking for a HDTV. Your gaming habits as well can steer you towards a certain type of TV. Mostly what it boils down to is your cash. But that’s OK; we'll show you what types of TVs you can get while staying in your budget that will maximize that brand new Xbox.

Many gamers, not unlike yourself, are ready for the Xbox 360 but do not have a HDTV nor do they knew what to look for to maximize their investment. There are so many options out there that choosing the right set for your lifestyle can be overwhelming. So HD Beat presents the HDTV Buying Guide: Xbox 360 edition.

Things to consider

The 360 itself needs to be considered when looking for a HDTV. Your gaming habits as well can steer you towards a certain type of TV. Mostly what it boils down to is your cash. But that’s OK; we'll show you what types of TVs you can get while staying in your budget that will maximize that brand new Xbox.

http://www.hdbeat.com/2005/11/12/hdtv-buyi...ox-360-edition/

[puntoMX]

Press any key,

What´s the deal here? Yes it´s a computer, yes you can write your own OS for it, yes it´s better then your computer at home b/c it has better specs, and NO, even the XBox360 doesn´t have HD-TV support (100%) but I´m sure you can do more with a normal computer a.k. 2006.

So, start to rebuild the XBox to the computer you like and tell us about it please .

I just did. Above..

Tell us about it please, what did you do? How did you manage to write that OS to use it with Adobe Photoshop?

and "VGA connections for high definition televisions and computer monitors" doesn´t say any thing, it´s just a connector, not the STANDARD. Sure you didn´t see that ATI kicked the words "HD-TV" out of his home-page .

Edited March 27, 2006 by puntoMX

[LLXX]

Is that a hollow heatpipe vacuum-sealed, liquid-cooled? Or just a lump of copper?

What do you think a heatpipe is then? It can't really be considered as a proper "liquid-cooled" system, just as a small enhancement to thermal conductivity.

Your video card supports HIGH DEFINITION?

Even the lowly Intel integrated GMA950 supports HTDV. Read http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma950/

HDTV 480i/p, 576i/p, 720i/p and 1080i/p display resolution support

...and here is a proper Video Card with HDTV support: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/Sea...p?EdpNo=1697137