French 'Non' puts EU in turmoil

[Zxian]

French voters' clear "No" to the EU constitution has left European leaders struggling to define the way forward.

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said there was now "a very serious problem" and there was no willingness to reopen negotiations.

In the French referendum almost 55% of people voted "No", with 45% in favour. Turnout was high, at about 70%.

It is a severe - perhaps fatal - blow to the EU constitution, which needs to be ratified by all 25 member states.

French President Jacques Chirac accepted the voters' "sovereign decision" on Sunday, but said it created "a difficult context for the defence of our interests in Europe". He had campaigned hard for a "Yes" vote.

Full Story (BBC News)

Keep your eyes on this one. It'll have very interesting consequences for the world...

[Martin L]

wednesday i can go vote too.... guess what, i am gonna vote no too

[jroc]

why should we expect anything surprising from the French...they have a history of trying to be more important than they are...hell..they usually get every country involved in some war or issue..then end up doing the "I Surrender" routine....I'd say let the EU put France out on their own and let them drink their "Whine" alone.

[Zxian]

I don't quite think that's fair. Chirac was trying to campaign for a 'yes' vote, but it's the fact that the French are very patriotic and don't want to be controlled by another group.

Like it or not, there is still quite a bit of resentment from WWII lying around in France, and that's not a situation where they got everyone else involved and then did the "I Surrender" routine, as you put it. If the States were right beside Germany back then, it would have been just as ugly.

Oh... and without France as part of the EU, things would start to fall apart. France is a big hitter in the European economy and without it, the Euro would hold even less ground than it does now. The rest of the EU would eventually fall to shambles.

jroc, it seems like you don't follow EU politics very much and only get what the American press feeds you. I know what that is, since I live in Vancouver, Canada, and the news feeds aren't much better here. But since the majority of my family is in Europe, I try to follow along as much as possible. Please don't make insults to the French. I know a lot of people who could make anti-American statements regarding the war in Iraq (myself included) and such, but don't because this isn't the place.

[Bâshrat the Sneaky]

I think the recent joinings of the Baltic states and other weaker economy-states have had their influence... In fact I'm quite sure if they wouldn't have joined there would at least be a lower NO voting.

[Readiosys]

why should we expect anything surprising from the French...they have a history of trying to be more important than they are...hell..they usually get every country involved in some war or issue..then end up doing the "I Surrender" routine....I'd say let the EU put France out on their own and let them drink their "Whine" alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am a french living in the UK for the time being, and I feel that you should refrain from making such comments here...

Judging from your avatar, you are from the United States and like/are in the US military, so maybe that was some ressentment regarding the Irak's disagreement ?

Let's get over that, mate and keep the xenophobia out of topic, since your comment didn't add anything to the topic.

I wasn't in France to vote yesterday, but most people I know voted no, and if I had been in France, it is quite likely I would have answered no... because of the social rights that this constitution endangers...

[Martin L]

jroc I hope for you that this was the first AND last time you speak like this in public... I would like to give the opportunity to have freedom of talk in this topic BUT you all have to obey the rules, no more unofficial warnings.... to no one whom is going to not obey the rules!

so now back on topic.. my parents are on vacation now, they said i can vote for them, and yes I definitely go vote against the EU, I don’t want cheap workers take my job and i become unemployed, i dont want to be restricted by some poker people whom think they got the power, I want the Netherlands stay the Netherlands, not a very little forgotten part of Europe

[Zxian]

I think the recent joinings of the Baltic states and other weaker economy-states have had their influence... In fact I'm quite sure if they wouldn't have joined there would at least be a lower NO voting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll agree here. It's part of what I said in my post above. There has always been a disagreement regarding the inclusion of European nations that aren't as strong economically, with some people saying that it would only hurt the rest of Europe, and others saying that it would help the EU as a whole.

[Alanoll]

I think it would be kinda of interesting if there was every any sort of governing body that oversaw the EU and US together. Sort of like a super EU you could say. The vote to create such a Union would be quite interesting in my opinion.

If you find the resentment between the French and Germans alittle harsh, imagine what it would be if the US was thrown in to the mix. Not only would there be the patriotic people who don't want they country even remotely controlled by another (though in today's economy that's impossible), there are those that have resents toward the other countries. Being an American I can honestly say I 've witnessed some of those resentments. There is the stereotypical french comments that are created, the Holocaust, the American Revolution. Of the major European powers in Europe, I wouldn't be surprised if the US hasn't p***ed atleast one of them off in the last 250 years. Even that amount of time isn't enough to not hold grudges. There are still people that make judgements on the American Revolution about how the US was superior to the British.

American has a superiority complex. I won't deny that. It probably doesn't help though that we have a military base in most European Nations, or that we feel we "bailed" Europe out during both world wars (not that I feel that way, but I'll be honest sometimes it's fun to joke about it).

I can completely understand the French not wanting to approve the EU constitution. They are a proud people. Some might say alittle uptight, but they are a proud people. It also comes down to what's in the constitution. I won't lie and say I have any idea what's in it, but if it's anything like the US constitution...it's going to take 200 years before it's even close to workable in most situations. Then that would also mean any laws enacted by a member nation, could be easily overruled by the "federal" level, and then thrown into court for 10-20 years. There could also be brides and such from industries (movie and music specifically) to get their laws past in which it would affect the entire union.

Alright, I'm just ramblign now, so I best stop where it is.

I'm usually pretty open when it comes to politics, but please keep the flaming to a minimum. I know it will happen simply because of the topic, but yeah...tone it down a bit.

[Nanaki]

I live in Belgium, we don't get to vote. How democratic. Our idiotic prime minister is still saying our country says "yes". A vote would prove him wrong. I'm against too. I don't feel like argumenting this, as once-a-day is enough. The most important is I have a feeling it would destroy a lot of the Belgian social security. Besides, I don't want it to get anything like the US constitution (well, most parts). I hope, really hope, it doesn't get through.

Unfortunatly, it will. EU will find a way to make it happen. And that shows the fall of our whole democracy perfectly. Oh well, I'm pretty optimistic and just won't care for now.

[Zxian]

I'm usually pretty open when it comes to politics, but please keep the flaming to a minimum. I know it will happen simply because of the topic, but yeah...tone it down a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you here. I'm pretty open when it comes to people's opinions. I think that everyone has a right to have one, just as long as when they express themselves, they don't directly offend others.

Regarding what you said about the US "bailing" Europe out of the World Wars, I find it interesting that it's the common view of Americans (I've heard that from many others). I find it somewhat upsetting that they don't teach the whole story in high schools in the States. I don't mean to offend here, but it's a fairly narrow view of history that is taught that only focuses on the American viewpoints.

And as for the EU-US union voting... I would bet a large sum of money that that vote would go "No"... (a very large sum of money...)

[Readiosys]

EU is also quite a bureaucracy and bureaucracy costs a lot of money and is just talks talks and very few acts...

The costs of running this bureaucracy are very high and are paid with the taxes that all the current "EU" europeans pay...

Think about how much all this constitution costed...

It is another reason why I would have voted No!

Europe didn't change my live positively, and just cost me money in the end... for now, at least...

[SiMoNsAyS]

we (spanish people) already voted yes, i personally didn't vote but i think us, europeans, need some way of global goverment.

the first step for this is the EU constitution. usually england, germany and france are countries that have an important politic weight in EU and with this constitution, that weight would be smaller. (i guess) that's the reason why they voted no. maybe is too soon, or maybe not, nobody knows but i would like to imagine a powerful and united EU like now is USA.

...i was thinking on that supposed (EU+USA) world goverment, think about the amount of potential it would had... and the amount of potentially corruption...

another thing i must say is that i totally agree with Readiosys thoughts but although this constitution is not perfect, is the path were to start

[Delprat]

Sad to see there's always "european foreigners" knowing better than we who we are (huuu... I'm not sure to speak english).... I don't drink whine

For the french people, this referendum is the first consultation since 1992 (Maastricht) : 13 years ago ALL politicians says that voting YES will lead us to a better future.

The facts during these 13 years clearly showed the contrary.

Nowadays, the same was done : we ear during weeks that voting YES is the good way, that this "constitution" is the best, etc.

But it's not easy to see from outside of France... for instance, our president, Chirac, was elected by saying all the bad he could about the EU (yes, there is people here sensible to these words... as in USA there is racist people : not more, not less IMHO), and we see foreign press saying that he is a "pro-european" : don't you see something wrong ?

We're not egoists, we're not against baltic states or Turkish people (at least for 75% of french people, if you trust polls) : we simply don't trust people that lies and lies and lies...

I voted NO because of things I mainly can't explain in English, but I'm pretty sure that this is NOT the "path to start" : the "constitution" provides more problems than solutions for our workers, our students and our "willing-to-work" people (I don't know the word, sorry)

@ SiMoNsAyS : you're wrong when saying : "with this constitution, that weight would be smaller" : this would have been the contrary, at least for France !

And the text of "our" constitution was not the same as spanish's one ! we had got 400 more pages to pronounce on... (about "economical politics")

bye

[Nanaki]

Please note that the attitude of the French has won in sympathy over the years. Most arguments "against" the French have mostly disappeared over the years. Sure, sometimes we refer to you as the fascists, but we also know it's ten times as worse in Germany. You guys have more support from the "foreigners" than you think.

Hell, I get along better with people from France than from Wallony.