D.Draker Posted February 15, 2022 Author Share Posted February 15, 2022 3 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said: No issues, D.Draker. Carry on. I'll add this thread to my "out-of-site, out-of-mind" Stylus sheet. I was not trying to take sides but see how it probably looked that way. No skin in this fight. Moving on. "Out of sight, out of mind." No , excuse me ! There is a big issue. It seems you like to support anyone who is opposed to me. Like in this case , some random user with no proof and you just supported him again . Why ? So now you're just outta here without even saying sorry . Why did you even start replying to this conversation ? Are you a gamer ? Do you have proof for this game being truly DX12 compatible ? Do you own a DX12 videocard ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripredacus Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 22 hours ago, D.Draker said: I see , thanks . And what about Windows 8 then ? Two and a half users , yet in the Top charts. Windows 8 market share is at 0.18% (way below Vista) . Don't really care about market share. We don't need to organise the forum based on real world events. And also try not to make changes just for the sake of making changes. For a design standpoint, the primary portion of a forum index should reside within 1 screens worth of space on a standard system, and MS Software Products section fits into that space. If we had to add another section, such as if a Windows 12 comes out or something, then we will think about moving a section into a sub-section. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCyborg Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 @Tripredacus BTW, you guys forgot to add Windows 11 on the OS list located where you edit your profile. And since it's been out for a while and we have a sub-forum for it, it would make sense for it to be selectable on that list as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCyborg Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 4 hours ago, Jaguarek62 said: D3D12on7 is real, it is being used in wow,red dead, cyberpunk. it was used in call of duty series and probably many other games I'm not even aware. Seems there's not much interest in documenting which games actually use it. Not much results if you Google "D3D12On7 site:www.pcgamingwiki.com". But you may get a rough list of games on Steam that use it Googling "dxilconv7.dll site:steamdb.info". dxilconv7.dll is a unique dependency of D3D12On7 and SteamDB records list of files that come with each game on Steam among other information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Draker Posted February 15, 2022 Author Share Posted February 15, 2022 5 hours ago, UCyborg said: Seems there's not much interest in documenting which games actually use it. Not much to "document" , lol. I think I'll leave this conversation (not because of you , no ! You're an interesting person and polite, I wish you to get rid of the infection as soon as possible !). It's because I see lots of hostility from some other members that just like to write without actual proof provided . Until I see an actual API call to DX12 inside the game executable , I won't beleive it . And as of now , there's none . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCyborg Posted February 15, 2022 Share Posted February 15, 2022 2 hours ago, D.Draker said: that just like to write without actual proof provided I do that too if I consider it self-explanatory or easy to look-up. You'd have to profile RDR2 on the system that has all dependencies to be able to see everything it loads. The picture shows static dependencies, but other libraries are loaded at runtime. There's footage on YouTube showing it running both in Vulkan and D3D12 mode, eg.: That D3D9 dependency is probably a leftover from older iteration of the engine or maybe they do intro cinematics with it? Latter seems unlikely as it's really old fashioned to use another rendering API for those, much older games from Rockstar did it though, think GTA III era GTAs. Your definition of "true" D3D12 game seems to be the kind that utilizes its exclusive features from feature level 12_2 and consequently requires newer GPU, eg. one of RTXs on NVIDIA side and the like. I wouldn't say other games with lesser requirements makes their usage of D3D12 any less real. Devs should have less work building upon existing D3D12 code should they decide to use new features in the future. They get to skip this - Porting from Direct3D 11 to Direct3D 12. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Draker Posted February 16, 2022 Author Share Posted February 16, 2022 16 hours ago, UCyborg said: I do that too if I consider it self-explanatory or easy to look-up. Yes, I did a lookup and found the official requirements : GTX770 (NON DX12 card). How's that even possible for a DX12 game to run on that thing ? Then I took a screenshot and found DX9Ex , exactly the same are used in DOA5 , so no , I don't think they are just for intros. There's a FULL set of D3D9Ex instructions to run the game , including textures etc. Also note , the game requests Direct3Dcreate9Ex, just like it should, when it runs purely on D3D9Ex (I read the docs and you can look up for them yourself too). There is no indication , even remotely , for it to fully support true DX12 (or even 10/11). Yes, what I meant is a real DX12 , like in Assassin's Creed Valhalla (TM). It runs on real DX12 cards , starting with the Maxell gen. (980ti , Titan X 12GB and the such) . And of course it has DX12 APIs. So , why it doesn't run on GTX770 .LOL. )))))) There's lots of posts from people trying to run it on older cards without any success. Yet they found a way to run the game on older OS , BUT only with a REAL DX12 card. All that videos above , are soft wrappers , that's what comes to mind. Don't you think ? DirectX 12 card (feature level 12_1) https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-gtx-titan-x.c2632 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripredacus Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 21 hours ago, UCyborg said: @Tripredacus BTW, you guys forgot to add Windows 11 on the OS list located where you edit your profile. And since it's been out for a while and we have a sub-forum for it, it would make sense for it to be selectable on that list as well. Added Windows 11 and the 3 main Server OS (2016, 2019, 2022). There was a clear effort in the past to have many different editions of previous OS, but I do not know whether it should be added for the newer versions. When Windows 10 was added, it was just x86 and x64, no Core or Pro options. I don't know how crazy people want to get, whether we should be adding things like Windows 10 Pro for Workstations or Windows 10 Pro National Academic High End or Windows 11 Home Advanced options. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Draker Posted February 16, 2022 Author Share Posted February 16, 2022 18 hours ago, UCyborg said: You'd have to profile RDR2 on the system that has all dependencies to be able to see everything it loads. In Dependency walker they will just show in red , they can't just magically disappear from an executable and then reappear on a "supported system". Did a further research. The intros you're were talking about are handled by MFPLAT.DLL (shown in red on my screen because of a missing dep. on Vista) . The funniest thing , if I were to use this game , I'd just skip all intros anyways . But if someone wants them , it could be fixed by using the win32's MFPLAT fix . So ! This game should run perfectly fine on Vista x64 with or even without the fix. Not sure about XP (due to the lack of DX9Ex). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCyborg Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 10 hours ago, D.Draker said: How's that even possible for a DX12 game to run on that thing ? Backwards compatibility down to D3D_FEATURE_LEVEL_11_0, the exclusive new features are not mandatory to use, the new programming paradigms specific to D3D12 remain though. 10 hours ago, D.Draker said: There's a FULL set of D3D9Ex instructions to run the game There seems to be very little D3D9 code in there, just querying some infos or something at first glance... 11 hours ago, D.Draker said: There is no indication , even remotely , for it to fully support true DX12 (or even 10/11). It does call D3D12CreateDevice here with MinimumFeatureLevel (passed in EDX/RDX register) set to 0xb000, which is defined as D3D_FEATURE_LEVEL_11_0: 11 hours ago, D.Draker said: Yes, what I meant is a real DX12 OK, but the point that was made earlier was simply that D3D12 library was backported to Windows 7 with some limitations. Nothing more, nothing less. And using only capabilities of D3D11 compatible cards is the valid use case. 8 hours ago, D.Draker said: In Dependency walker they will just show in red , they can't just magically disappear from an executable and then reappear on a "supported system". You're talking about implicit dependencies, there can be also dynamic dependencies, which is what Vulkan and D3D12 are in RDR2's case. https://www.dependencywalker.com/help/html/application_profiling.htm Quote When a module is first opened by Dependency Walker, it is immediately scanned for all implicit, delay-load, and forwarded dependencies (for more information on dependency types, see the Types of Dependencies Handled By Dependency Walker section). Once all the modules have been scanned, the results are displayed. In addition to these known dependencies, modules are free to load other modules at run-time without any prior warning to the operating system. These types of dependencies are known as dynamic or explicit dependencies. There is really no way to detect dynamic dependencies without actually running the application and watching it to see what modules it loads at run-time. This is exactly what Dependency Walker's application profiling does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCyborg Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Tripredacus said: When Windows 10 was added, it was just x86 and x64, no Core or Pro options. I don't know how crazy people want to get, whether we should be adding things like Windows 10 Pro for Workstations or Windows 10 Pro National Academic High End or Windows 11 Home Advanced options. I noticed that, but for consistency, then you'd also have to add entries for older Windows versions without exact edition (assuming we leave existing Win10, Win11 etc. editionless entries) to have the option to not specify edition for any OS, so you'd end up with bigger number of entries OR change existing Win10, Win11 etc. entries, but that would convert all Win10, Win11 etc. users to Pro, Home, etc. even if they might be using something else...yeah, the latter doesn't sound like a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Draker Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 4 hours ago, UCyborg said: ... down to D3D_FEATURE_LEVEL_11_0 .... OK, but the point that was made earlier was simply that D3D12 library was backported to Windows 7 with some limitations. Nothing more, nothing less. And using only capabilities of D3D11 compatible cards is the valid use case. First of all , thank you for the detailed explanations ! Second , what's the point of that file if the game downgrades itself to 11_0 anyways and runs on Windows 7 natively ?! From what I see during the last 10-15 years , there's no need to upgrade , no point in newer OS too. We all could be perfectly fine with Vista running these "modern" games on Vista's DirectX11 and 11 years old videocards ... why did I even buy DX_12.1 Titan ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCyborg Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 https://theclick.gg/gaming/features/most-demanding-pc-games-2021/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Draker Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 4 hours ago, UCyborg said: https://theclick.gg/gaming/features/most-demanding-pc-games-2021/ Thanks , not impressed , sorry . I have an old PC , ancient I'd say. Yet not impressed. Not much to choose from. 1. Forza Horizon 5 (forcefully req. win 10 , so don't know) 2. Halo Infinite (not a fan of Halo) 3. Far Cry 6 (forcefully req. win 10 , so don't know). 4. Assassin’s Creed Valhalla (runs fine on my Titan , absolutely fine , top FPS with TRUE DX12). I'm not impressed with this game either . Yet I have to admit it's one of the few DX12 games. 5. Control (low demands actually ! runs 120fps on my mediocre PC with Titan using DX11) 6. Microsoft Flight Simulator (low demands actually ! GT770 again!) 7. Cyberpunk 2077 (BUGGY as Hell , out of question) 8. Grand Theft Auto V (isn't it from 2014 ? ,lol GT8800, lol) 9. Metro Exodus (isn't this a 2018 DX11 game ?! OMG GT1050) Runs 1200Fps on my mediocre PC) 10. Red Dead Redemption 2 (DX11 , discussed earlier , fake DX12). Anyway , thanks again , it's always a pleasure to talk with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user57 Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 according to microsoft, windows 7 at least support directx 12 in part: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/porting-directx-12-games-to-windows-7/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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