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My Browser Builds (Part 3)


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8 hours ago, Eddie Phizika said:

Hey Roytam1 and all, i'm just here to thank you for iceape-uxp for windows. I love seamonkey/mozilla suite, but i love uxp. It is so faster than palememe, i love its freedom and privacy, security, and iceape particularly is even as fast as fat boy netscape-wannabe. I love it is so more netscape than it as it has an (excellent) email client and is a full suite. Absolutely love the low memory footprint as well, as i plan on staying on windows 7 as my desktop operating system until i die.

Is anyone actually using this browser on win 7? i see many xp users into these uxp builds but no idea how much win7/2k/9x users are into those.., I think it fits perfectly well and will be one of my alternative software to survive the slow and steady incompatibility apocalypse we will see, along with some tweaks and maybe some kind of custom kernel if any developer steps up for all of us and himself in the future. I'm never going to windows 8+ and by no nightmare in hell will be using a chrome-based browser, except when i need it. i will actually let 360chrome from owl as an reserve browser just for that.

Not that specifically, but I use Roytam1's MailNews and New Moon, as a secondary browser, on Windows 7 x64.

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59 minutes ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

I kinda don't see that happening but only time will tell.

Strictly my view, but since you asked...

The XP Die-Hards are "book-ended" by two of the absolute worst operating systems Microsoft has ever released  --  Windows Me and Windows Vista.

I know we have some very respectable Vista users so please don't shoot the messenger and it is "opinion" (popular opinion, but opinion nonetheless)  --
     https://www.computerworld.com/article/3575332/the-worst-version-of-windows-ever-released.html
     https://www.howtogeek.com/720504/the-6-worst-versions-of-windows-ranked/
     https://www.pcworld.com/article/528411/worst_operating_system.html
     https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/hated-windows-versions/

I can only speak for myself and others are welcome to chime in to agree or disagree.
The way that I see it, most XP Die-Hards are die-hards because they evolved into it, not because their first computer ran XP and they just resist change.
We remember Windows 3.1, we remember Windows 95, we remember Windows NT, we remember Windows 98, we remember Windows 2000.
We witnessed the "marketing lies" of Windows Me and Vista.
We witnessed Microsoft admit how "terrible" Vista was that they gave away free "upgrades" to XP to people that were trying to return brand new computers with immense hatred for Vista instability that came with that new computer.
We witnessed driver support (primarily wireless printers) with 10 - that repeated each and every "update Tuesday" for 4 to 6 months after "upgrading" to 10.

XP Die-Hards weren't "born", we were kinda "created through an evolutionary process".
I don't see that "evolution" in the Win7 community, that community (from my experience) "loves" Win10 and is "looking forward" to 11.

I'm not sure where these ideas came from, but they're patently false.

 

The difference between Windows 7 and its successors is one of the widest chasms in Windows NT history. Bigger even, I would argue, than XP to Vista.

 

There are a lot of folks that were fine going from XP to Vista to 7 or whatever, but are not fine moving on beyond that. I'm one of them, obviously.

 

I run Windows 7 on my main machines and have no plans to downgrade to Windows 8/8.1/10 or God forbid 11. I thought it couldn't get any worse after 10... 11 proved me wrong.

 

All to stay the folks still running 7 are doing so for a reason, and are NOT about to be suckered into a fourth-rate OS like Windows 11. We share many of the same concerns and philosophies as those running Vista, XP, 2000, etc.

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2 minutes ago, InterLinked said:

I'm not sure where these ideas came from, but they're patently false.

lol

I did say "I can only speak for myself"  :whistle:

I do think that the MSFN XP-user and the MSFN Vista-user and the MSFN 7-User, et cetera, really doesn't speak for the population-at-large.

This community is a "rare breed" no matter which OS we run.

We flocked here because we are "birds of a different feather".

My view was "trying" (but failed) to speak towards the non-MSFN type of Win7-user.  The vast majority of which, in my view, have never heard of MSFN.

But then again, until XP started seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, I guess I never really heard of MSFN either.  And now look at me, I'm here a dozen times a day, lol.

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5 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

I kinda don't see that happening but only time will tell.

Strictly my view, but since you asked...

The XP Die-Hards are "book-ended" by two of the absolute worst operating systems Microsoft has ever released  --  Windows Me and Windows Vista.

I know we have some very respectable Vista users so please don't shoot the messenger and it is "opinion" (popular opinion, but opinion nonetheless)  --
     https://www.computerworld.com/article/3575332/the-worst-version-of-windows-ever-released.html
     https://www.howtogeek.com/720504/the-6-worst-versions-of-windows-ranked/
     https://www.pcworld.com/article/528411/worst_operating_system.html
     https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/hated-windows-versions/

I can only speak for myself and others are welcome to chime in to agree or disagree.
The way that I see it, most XP Die-Hards are die-hards because they evolved into it, not because their first computer ran XP and they just resist change.
We remember Windows 3.1, we remember Windows 95, we remember Windows NT, we remember Windows 98, we remember Windows 2000.
We witnessed the "marketing lies" of Windows Me and Vista.
We witnessed Microsoft admit how "terrible" Vista was that they gave away free "upgrades" to XP to people that were trying to return brand new computers with immense hatred for Vista instability that came with that new computer.
We witnessed driver support (primarily wireless printers) with 10 - that repeated each and every "update Tuesday" for 4 to 6 months after "upgrading" to 10.

XP Die-Hards weren't "born", we were kinda "created through an evolutionary process".
I don't see that "evolution" in the Win7 community, that community (from my experience) "loves" Win10 and is "looking forward" to 11.

So, for you, most of the win7 userbase will not attract enough software support because most of it will flock to win10 and 11. Interesting.

Do you see things differently when we talk about companies? Not only big and medium sized, but all kinds of small and microbusinesses around the world, some way outside of the developed world?

Are you optimistic that MSFN Windows 7 users will convince the necessity of enough attention and effort from MSFN developers in the future as we have with xp today?

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4 hours ago, InterLinked said:

Not that specifically, but I use Roytam1's MailNews and New Moon, as a secondary browser, on Windows 7 x64.

I think mailnews is quite great, i've used the software from BNO, it was quite good, but not my kind of way of doing things. New Moon is something i've never tried. For me, iceape-uxp, even being a suite like moz suite was and not a standalone browser, is way way faster than pm from MCP, and about as fast as bnav

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4 hours ago, InterLinked said:

I'm not sure where these ideas came from, but they're patently false.

 

The difference between Windows 7 and its successors is one of the widest chasms in Windows NT history. Bigger even, I would argue, than XP to Vista.

 

There are a lot of folks that were fine going from XP to Vista to 7 or whatever, but are not fine moving on beyond that. I'm one of them, obviously.

 

I run Windows 7 on my main machines and have no plans to downgrade to Windows 8/8.1/10 or God forbid 11. I thought it couldn't get any worse after 10... 11 proved me wrong.

 

All to stay the folks still running 7 are doing so for a reason, and are NOT about to be suckered into a fourth-rate OS like Windows 11. We share many of the same concerns and philosophies as those running Vista, XP, 2000, etc.

I'm never, by any means, leaving windows 7, except if some NT operating system appears that is like it.

I have (very certainy) above average knowledge on linux distros and unix/bsd. I know how to do stuff to survive as a person who is not a developer but more of a light hacker (i'm not a developer and do not want to code, except in languages i'm interested with no objective task in mind), or a computer science perpetual student/amateur researcher.  I know how to deal with arch, debian, bsd enough to survive. It simply isn't up to the level of daily workflow of windows, inconsistency all around, too hobbyst, too inaccessible in standards, from UI to software abstractions that can really bring a possibility of a strong and unified ecosystem for them, massive, monolithic kernel with below adequate (for the linux kernel) code, inadequate drivers/schedulers that can even make very new machines chuckle in a browser if you don't have the patience for working on fixing those, SystemD was just necessary as an attempt to bring sanity but completely contradictory with bsd philosophies (which i personally DO NOT adhere to)...

WinNT has architectural advantages that can't be understated. Windows 7 is very efficiently designed for maintenance and power users/developers in mind. WinVista is great but i don't have any hardware to support it, even though i think win7 is more polished (even while lacking certain features but adding others and having somewhat of a more mature and featured kernel). WinXP is great but it has too much issues with hardware i like, and not old enough for older era hardware that i like more (linux, win9x and win2k are more interesting for that). Win8/8.1 is one of the worst aberrations the industry ever brought to us. Win10 was my daily driver for some significant time, but it has simply broken with classic desktop/workstation microsoft windows overall (as much as win8/8.1 did) and is so cloudcentric, anti-privacy and against user control that it makes me cringe. Win11 is a step ahead to hell, with the only exception of the android subsystem.

MacOS is such a crapshow (especially with the new UI) that i do not want to come even close to it.

Edited by Eddie Phizika
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It's all pure speculation, to be honest.

I personally HIGHLY doubt that Win7 will ever evolve into what WinXP has evolved into.

We have some Win7 fans that will hate me for saying so but I'm just being honest.

Part of XP's claim-to-fame is how LONG it lasted before Microsoft pulled the plug on it.

XP has been around for TWENTY YEARS.

7 is twelve years old - basically HALF but the difference is not worth pulling teeth over.

A 2015 article (here - https://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/04/08/windows-xp-usage.aspx ) states 250 million people were using XP several months after Microsoft pulled the plug.

Microsoft pulled the plug on 7 in January 2020 and a year later 7 was already down to a mere 100 million (according to here - https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/6/22217052/microsoft-windows-7-109-million-pcs-usage-stats-analytics )

And drastically declining at a much steaper rate (according to here - https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-many-pcs-are-still-running-windows-7-today/ )

 

Again, it's all pure speculation.  I'm honestly not trying to be biased (I am an admitted XP Die-Hard, but I still know the difference between "subjective" and "objective").

I see article after article that very strongly indicates that 7 is declining at a much steaper rate than XP ever declined.

XP has dwindled to 25 million by late 2020 (according to here - https://www.xanjero.com/news/approximately-25-million-pcs-are-still-running-the-unsecured-windows-xp-os/ )

If it's any consolation, this XP Die-Hard will migrate to 7 when XP's shimmering light vanishes into oblivion.

I also cite that XP had "POSReady" updates (which I do not use!) that helped eek out a few more years for XP for users that "care" about that type of 'crap' (yes, that was "subjective", lol).

POSReady for XP was introduced MONTHS after XP was "retired".

We're close to TWO YEARS that 7 was "retired" - does 7 have any "POSReady" types of updates?  I have no clue because I don't use 7.  But it's a fair question - does 7 have any "POSReady" updates that extended it beyond "expiration"?

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

It's all pure speculation, to be honest.

I personally HIGHLY doubt that Win7 will ever evolve into what WinXP has evolved into.

We have some Win7 fans that will hate me for saying so but I'm just being honest.

Part of XP's claim-to-fame is how LONG it lasted before Microsoft pulled the plug on it.

XP has been around for TWENTY YEARS.

7 is twelve years old - basically HALF but the difference is not worth pulling teeth over.

A 2015 article (here - https://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/04/08/windows-xp-usage.aspx ) states 250 million people were using XP several months after Microsoft pulled the plug.

Microsoft pulled the plug on 7 in January 2020 and a year later 7 was already down to a mere 100 million (according to here - https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/6/22217052/microsoft-windows-7-109-million-pcs-usage-stats-analytics )

And drastically declining at a much steaper rate (according to here - https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-many-pcs-are-still-running-windows-7-today/ )

 

Again, it's all pure speculation.  I'm honestly not trying to be biased (I am an admitted XP Die-Hard, but I still know the difference between "subjective" and "objective").

I see article after article that very strongly indicates that 7 is declining at a much steaper rate than XP ever declined.

XP has dwindled to 25 million by late 2020 (according to here - https://www.xanjero.com/news/approximately-25-million-pcs-are-still-running-the-unsecured-windows-xp-os/ )

If it's any consolation, this XP Die-Hard will migrate to 7 when XP's shimmering light vanishes into oblivion.

I also cite that XP had "POSReady" updates (which I do not use!) that helped eek out a few more years for XP for users that "care" about that type of 'crap' (yes, that was "subjective", lol).

POSReady for XP was introduced MONTHS after XP was "retired".

We're close to TWO YEARS that 7 was "retired" - does 7 have any "POSReady" types of updates?  I have no clue because I don't use 7.  But it's a fair question - does 7 have any "POSReady" updates that extended it beyond "expiration"?

 

 

 

I'm sending you a PM. Not going into it as this is very sensitive and it could cause us all trouble.

Edited by Eddie Phizika
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We kinda drifted OT a bit, didn't we?

Trying (perhaps in vain) to bring things back around to browsers, I think the Web browser is the one app Google, M$, et al. use to force us to quit using our favorite OS and "upgrade." After all, that's the main reason I no longer use Win 98SE: can't browse the modern Web, even slowly, with anything that runs on it.

We've all done a remarkable job here keeping XP alive with @roytam1's builds of Firefox-based browsers and @Humming Owl's and @NotHereToPlayGames's builds of 360EE. All are useful and the latter two are compatible with pretty much anything the modern Web can throw at us.

But UXP has taken us about as far as it can, and even 360EE is about to reach the end of the line for XP. And you all know full well that the powers that be will keep changing things, so we'll all be forced to "upgrade" to a new browser (probably based on Chromium 95 or "modern" Firefox) that has no hope of running on XP or Vista. Luckily we do have Win 7, which isn't a huge adjustment for XP/Vista users, but the writing is on the wall for Win 7 too.

Maybe China will once again buy us a few more years, but eventually even Win 7 will succumb to the shifting sands of the Web, and browsing will become impractical even on Win 7. At that point, I think Win 8.1 (with Classic Start Menu) is at least tolerable, but Linux is looking better & better....

Edited by Mathwiz
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On 11/19/2021 at 7:33 AM, kartel said:

Yes thank you I was able to go back to general.useragent.compatMode.version 68 and change google.com agent to get back in.

 

The bitchute problem seems to be a tough one. I tried user agents for bitchute and cloudflare with no results.

I'm afraid this it out of my range of experience. Hope someone can figure it out.

thanks

 

 

I did find some things:

 

https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/gun/gun.js

			if(k && v){ at.node = state_ify(at.node, k, s, d) } // handle soul later.
				else {
					as.seen.push(cat = {it: d, link: {}, todo: g? [] : Object.keys(d).sort().reverse(), path: (to.path||[]).slice(), up: at}); // Any perf reasons to CPU schedule this .keys( ?
					at.node = state_ify(at.node, k, s, cat.link);
					!g && cat.todo.length && to.push(cat);
					// ---------------
					var id = as.seen.length;
					(as.wait || (as.wait = {}))[id] = '';
					tmp = (cat.ref = (g? d : k? at.ref.get(k) : at.ref))._;
					(tmp = (d && (d._||'')['#']) || tmp.soul || tmp.link)? resolve({soul: tmp}) : cat.ref.get(resolve, {run: as.run, /*hatch: 0,*/ v2020:1, out:{get:{'.':' '}}}); // TODO: BUG! This should be resolve ONLY soul to prevent full data from being loaded. // Fixed now?
					//setTimeout(function(){ if(F){ return } console.log("I HAVE NOT BEEN CALLED!", path, id, cat.ref._.id, k) }, 9000); var F; // MAKE SURE TO ADD F = 1 below!
					function resolve(msg, eve){
						var end = cat.link['#'];
						if(eve){ eve.off(); eve.rid(msg) } // TODO: Too early! Check all peers ack not found.
						// TODO: BUG maybe? Make sure this does not pick up a link change wipe, that it uses the changign link instead.
						var soul = end || msg.soul || (tmp = (msg.$$||msg.$)._||'').soul || tmp.link || ((tmp = tmp.put||'')._||'')['#'] || tmp['#'] || (((tmp = msg.put||'') && msg.$$)? tmp['#'] : 
 

 

 

Also if I delete node div#loader-container the page is hidden underneath but the player looks unskinned and the comments are not loaded.

div#loader-container style="display: block;"

Deleting this node^^ only works once, when you reload the page, it wont reveal the page and the "block" part is gone when it reloads.

 

 

 

<div id="loader-container"><div id="loader"><ul><li></li><li></li><li></li><li></li><li></li><li></li></ul></div></div>

This code it loads looks like its missing stuff

maybe this is a clue?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62179667/show-loader-element-until-page-loads-then-hide-it

8ecJzqZ.jpg

Got everything to work except likes and comments by blocking inline scripts with UBO

It will have to do for now.

vyLDcrj.jpg

TbzTMlv.jpg

 

Edited by kartel
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9 minutes ago, Mathwiz said:

We kinda drifted OT a bit, didn't we?

Trying (perhaps in vain) to bring things back around to browsers, I think the Web browser is the one app Google, M$, et al. use to force us to quit using our favorite OS and "upgrade." After all, that's the main reason I no longer use Win 98SE: can't browse the modern Web, even slowly, with anything that runs on it.

We've all done a remarkable job here keeping XP alive with @roytam1's builds of Firefox-based browsers and @Humming Owl's and @NotHereToPlayGames's builds of 360EE. All are useful and the latter two are compatible with pretty much anything the modern Web can throw at us.

But UXP has taken us about as far as it can, and even 360EE is about to reach the end of the line for XP. And you all know full well that the powers that be will keep changing things, so we'll all be forced to "upgrade" to a new browser (probably based on Chromium 95 or "modern" Firefox) that has no hope of running on XP or Vista. Luckily we do have Win 7, which isn't a huge adjustment for XP/Vista users, but the writing is on the wall for Win 7 too.

Maybe China will once again buy us a few more years, but eventually even Win 7 will succumb to the shifting sands of the Web, and browsing will become impractical even on Win 7. At that point, I think Win 8.1 (with Classic Start Menu) is at least tolerable, but Linux is looking better & better....

I think I'm going to cry myself to sleep after reading this posting ;(

Honestly, I WILL move to Linux on my 2 Dell computers and take them as far as I can, then when it comes to purchasing something new,  I don't have a clue what I would do then tbh. 

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2 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

...eventually even Win 7 will succumb to the shifting sands of the Web, and browsing will become impractical even on Win 7. At that point, I think Win 8.1 (with Classic Start Menu) is at least tolerable...

But browsers may end support for 8.1 at the same time as 7, just as they ended support for Vista at the same time as XP, and for the same reason: Relatively few users remaining.

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4 hours ago, Vistapocalypse said:

Relatively few users remaining.

Agreed.  The MSFN crowd really is very unique.  And extremely rare.  We really are very tiny in the grand scheme of things.

I knew of MSFN long before becoming a member.  And it was official Pale Moon dropping support for XP that landed me here as a member.  But I feel like I was the ONLY person that landed here when official Pale Moon dropped XP.

Fast forward and we saw what offical Pale Moon continued to do for XP.  But did people flock to MSFN?  Nope, we had two new members, maybe three.  But for a day or two and they're not here anymore.

I may be overexaggerating but you can follow that logic.  25 million or so XP users worldwide and you only need to take one shoe off to count all of the XP users active here at MSFN.

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On 11/21/2021 at 6:21 PM, NotHereToPlayGames said:

If it's any consolation, this XP Die-Hard will migrate to 7 when XP's shimmering light vanishes into oblivion.

OMG, NO! I tried so many times since the release of Win7...I don't like it much, tried everything with classic look and ClassicShell, but there are so many things more driving me crazy on Win7. If the point of no return is reached, I will move to ReactOS and/or some BSD and/or macOS.
 

On 11/21/2021 at 6:21 PM, NotHereToPlayGames said:

I also cite that XP had "POSReady" updates (which I do not use!) that helped eek out a few more years for XP for users that "care" about that type of 'crap' (yes, that was "subjective", lol).

Why you don't use the POSReady updates? I had and have no serious problems with them and can really recommend them.
 

16 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

Luckily we do have Win 7, which isn't a huge adjustment for XP/Vista users, but the writing is on the wall for Win 7 too.

As said above Win7 is no solution for me...for me it would be a huge adjustment - unlike ReactOS which feels like 2k/XP.
 

8 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

I knew of MSFN long before becoming a member.  And it was official Pale Moon dropping support for XP that landed me here as a member.  But I feel like I was the ONLY person that landed here when official Pale Moon dropped XP.

Fast forward and we saw what offical Pale Moon continued to do for XP.  But did people flock to MSFN?  Nope, we had two new members, maybe three.  But for a day or two and they're not here anymore.

I also knew MSFN long before (~2005!?) when I was searching for Win98SE stuff, because I don't wanted to switch to XP for several reasons - this was before XP became what it was later (after the release of SP3). I also joined MSFN because Pale Moon dropped XP support to get support for @roytam1's New Moon and I think we both are not the only ones...OK there won't be thousands - but I think more then ten - of new members.

kind regards
soggi

Edited by soggi
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49 minutes ago, soggi said:

...I also joined MSFN because Pale Moon dropped XP support to get support for @roytam1's New Moon and I think we both are not the only ones...OK there won't be thousands - but I think more then ten - of new members.

kind regards
soggi

Same!

By the time I even doscovered pale moon they were already 'done like dinner' with xp and I used V26 until I found @roytam1. I still have hope(s) he will (somehow) manage keep his browsers working as best as possible given that the internet is a monster compare to when I got here. 

Edited by XPerceniol
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