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Mathwiz

On Branding RoyTam1's Browsers

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I think that the branding for the three browsers should reflect the main platforms they run on:

Borealis -> Neptune (Windows 2000)

New Moon -> Whistler (Windows XP)

Serpent -> Longhorn (Vista)

Visual design isn't my specialty, but I've come up with these potential logos/icons for Longhorn. They could be refined, but software that runs on a Cyrix 6x86 MX doesn't need the fanciest icons:

longhorn.pnglhicon1.pnglhicon2.png

 

Edited by win32
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15 hours ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

I'm sorry LoneCrusader but by invoking the bsd-wip github issue you have lost any credibility among any of us over here. I will take responsibility for what I said on the Pale Moon forums and in my channel. I even take responsibility for what I said in that github issue BUT in THAT CASE I was in the right and there is no denying that from any rational mind. Could a word order change have not evoked such a disproportionate response from them?

I have asked that question many times since then. I want to say yes but I know those bsd people are batshit insane. They don't respect intellectual property OR software licenses wanting to treat everything as public domain and/or theirs without cause and are at a level of fanaticism that outshines even my self. So no. You don't get to cite that as a valid argument against me to promote blatant anti-Tobinism. I won't stand for it. You're done.

Fortunately for the rest of everyone who isn't you, I am not going to let that impact the start of what I hope will be better times. So to everyone else, nothing has been impacted by LoneCrusader's machinations. I stand by what I have offered and suggested.

As if I need your "credibility" - ha! From my perspective, the BSD issue appears as just another incarnation of yourself and Moonchild whining about an "unsanctioned" build for an "unsanctioned" platform. You can't control them, so you try to intimidate them. You might be surprised the difference making a request in a reasonable manner makes versus dropping in and making demands. Machinations.. LMAO.. wow.

The sad part here is that none of that was even directed at you at this point. Those links were simply directed at TechnoRelic, who has, time and again, refused to understand what was going on. And almost all of them, including the BSD one, were in the previous thread already.

We've had our debates, and said our piece. Probably never going to like each other, or agree about very much. But provided you continue with this "better attitude," cease you threats, treat roytam1, his project, and its users with respect and common courtesy, then I'm mostly content to sit back and watch.

13 hours ago, Mcinwwl said:

@LoneCrusader We remember the past and all know it was not always milk and honey, but hey, when's the option to change for better, I'm into peace negotiations, or at least instable truce, as better option than constant warfare. That's egoistic from me, but I just think it might be better as for an end-user of the Roytam's build, as he'll have more time for builds, having savings in less arguments... and I don't see anything ethically invalid in my stance, as Roytam agreed to work on that proposal already, just a few posts before.

I have a feeling that your past issues with mr. Tobin and MCP, that you mentioned few hundred posts before and that are by far pre-dating Roytam's builds for XP being announced here on MSFN, are vastly affecting your view on the events here. You might be right that war will rage on soon again. But form me it's better to try to work diplomatically, as Roy might gain projects stability in long term, and worst case he'll loose some work done. Tradeoff worth checking.

I wondered how long it would take for someone to accuse me of some "past bias" against Mr. Tobin. Frankly I resent that.

Sure, I don't like the guy. But everything I have said here in relation to this issue has been strictly based on the events at hand, and strictly in response to Mr. Tobin's behavior toward roytam1 and his project. I have been perfectly willing to have "civil discourse" with Mr. Tobin, provided that he cease his attacks and threats and behave like a reasonable person.

If peace can be made with Mr. Tobin, that's fine too, with a couple of caveats: 1) That this "peace" not be based on giving in to threats or intimidation; and 2) That this "peace" not be based on everyone pressuring roytam1 to accept a change to his project that he clearly does not see as a priority.

In fact, I had pretty much said everything that needed to be said, and even stated that I was mostly indifferent to the name changes, and stated that I would stand by roytam1 whatever HE decided. And then everyone here started jumping on the bandwagon and pressuring roytam1 to accept. Let's let roy make this decision himself, it's his project after all. He does the work. I'm interested in what HIS view is, not what is "popular."

7 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

Anyone who finds the suggested "Whistler" branding for NM 28 objectionable, should let us know now, while there's still time to change it. Seems pretty innocuous to me, but you never know what might turn folks off unless you ask!

Fine, put me on that list. Not that many here seem to care what I have to say though anyway. IMO re-using Microsoft code names that are completely unrelated seems to be going off on a weird tangent. Not to mention that Microsoft has now abandoned XP and is in the process of "disappearing it" from history. As noted by others, let's have more original names, preferably with some degree of relation to (or being derived from) the parent programs...
 

1 hour ago, dencorso said:

The @LoneCrusader is a dear friend and it grieves me to be pushed into arguing publicly with him about this, but I was never given any choice about it, since he seems to be the main (and, ATM, only) voice oposing the (re-)branding of the browsers.

Ah, den. :no: I thought you, of all people here, would understand where I've been coming from. If you don't at this point, I'm not sure how I could make it any clearer...

And what you say is not even wholly correct. I'm not entirely opposed to the renaming. I'm opposed to it under certain conditions. The first of which is being opposed to renaming to appease people making threats. Fine, that one seems to be behind us for now. The second of which, however, you yourself contributed to by jumping on the bandwagon pushing for this. roytam1 doesn't see it as a priority, and it's his project. But now everyone but myself is pressuring him to accept this.. and for what? Like I asked before, what benefit do we gain from changing a name and a graphic? How is this "positive" pressure really any different from the "negative" pressure when roy, unlike the rest of you, doesn't see this issue as some kind of crisis?

When and if roytam1 chooses, on his own, without influence from either side, to make changes to his project name or branding, I will be perfectly willing to accept it.

1 hour ago, dencorso said:

True enough. But, while not forgetting, moving on is sometimes required, and I think this is one such case.

Possibly. However, does no one but me see the intricacies of the irony in the situation? How can I phrase it...

Does no one but me have a problem with the fact that roy is being pressured to allow Mr. Tobin, the very person who has been a thorn in his side for however long now, to essentially place his chosen names and his chosen graphics on roy's projects?

Should roy, who has continually worked on his project and succeeded through all the criticism and nastiness, allow his ("former?") enemies to put their stamp on his work, which just recently they were trashing?

Should roy, every time he builds or uses his project, have to look at a name or a graphic chosen by those who did their best to harass him and cause him any trouble they could?

Should Mr. Tobin be allowed to "make his mark" (and a very visible and prominent mark) on a project he has, in the past, done his level best to destroy?

I don't understand how these issues aren't striking a chord with anyone...

It's not that Mr. Tobin lacks the ability. It's not that he hasn't been making a seemingly genuine and sincere effort. It's simply the sum of the situation itself.

1 hour ago, dencorso said:

There is a time for appeasing, and one for open confilct. I hope we won't keep arguing uselessly until we are beyond all possible compromise. Most of those in this thread are for the (re-)branding. I think that PoV has already won by acclamation.

I'm not interested in "popular." I'm quite used to being in the minority, you should know this by now.
Everyone here should know this, from or OS choices if nothing else.

This is roy's project, not a group project. Occasionally some members are able to help, but essentially without roy this project would cease to exist. So I'm interested in what HE thinks and decides. I don't care for how everyone is "pushing" him, and you are the one who started that by pointing out roy's ignoring of Tobin's message. roy has every right to ignore Tobin if he so chooses. What has Tobin previously contributed to this project? Nothing. What had Tobin previously done to "sabotage" roy's projects? Most everything he could. So why is roy expected to "sit up and take notice" when Tobin posts? It's not as if Tobin were offering any real help with actual functionality of the project...

1 hour ago, dencorso said:

... and you are the only one doing quite a strong effort to derail any compromise, when most of us don't see the facts in the same light as you do.

Once again, this is not wholly correct. I am NOT trying to "derail any compromise." I have even stated that I am NOT completely opposed to changing the names. I do favor keeping them as is (say 60/40), but it's not that important. The situation is the issue. Aside from the points I've already made clarifying my standpoint I am simply disgusted with all this "bandwagonism." I may be the only one speaking now, but several others have spoken in favor of keeping the current naming convention in the previous thread. (I know, I re-read it yesterday while looking for links.)

"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain

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33 minutes ago, LoneCrusader said:

Ah, den. :no: I thought you, of all people here, would understand where I've been coming from.

Of course I do. In the unforgettable words of Lord Acton:

Quote

It is bad to be oppressed by a minority; but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority. For there is a reserve of latent power in the masses which, if it is called into play, the minority can seldom resist. But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.

Yet, I do feel here some Realpolitik is in order... just that. :angel

33 minutes ago, LoneCrusader said:

Let's let roy make this decision himself, it's his project after all. He does the work. I'm interested in what HIS view is, not what is "popular."

I agree.

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XMoon27, 28....
XFox52...
VFox...
RoyFox45... 2.... 3.6.... (yeah I know, no rebranding now, just fantasy)

LoneCrusader said:
> Should Mr. Tobin be allowed to "make his mark" (and a very visible and prominent mark)
> on a project he has, in the past, done his level best to destroy?
> I don't understand how these issues aren't striking a chord with anyone

Certainly am uneasy feeling about THIS too, but RT himself isn't as emotional about such stuff as us mere mortals ;-)
As he already stated, if others are willing to do the (boring part of) the work, he doesn't mind adopting it, same as with Mathwiz past commits. And planning to post a poll. IMO that people so readily take the first suggestions is mainly due to a lack of better alternative suggestions. But thinking about, there were already other suggestions in the past... someone should copy them over here... And one prob I see for setting up a poll is the multitude of browsers, getting a bit complicated...

Edited by siria
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If you delve back into the original 200-page thread, you'll find plenty of suggestions for new names. None caught on, probably because we soon had far too many to choose from! I tried to avoid that this time, figuring @Matt A. Tobin's suggested names were good enough and I didn't want to start another avalanche of name suggestions

So far the leading alternative suggestion seems to be RoyFox and variations thereon. Which would also be fine by me.

================

4 hours ago, siria said:

And one prob I see for setting up a poll is the multitude of browsers, getting a bit complicated...

Well yes, but I think the immediate concern is rebranding New Moon, Serpent, Navigator, and Interlink (mail/news). The others (FF 45 SSE, Arctic Fox, K-Meleon) can remain as they are for now. So maybe four polls (five if you consider Serpent 52 and 55 separate).

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11 hours ago, win32 said:

lhicon1.pnglhicon2.png

I *VETO* these two *HEAVILY*, no offense intended.

They look like illustrations you'd see in an anatomy text discussing female reproductive organs.

===================================================================================================

Where did the name "New Moon" come from in the first place?

I thought it was an APPROVED "generic" branding and methinks it could remain "generic" FOREVER.

People don't stumble upon these forks "by accident".

There is no "confusion", from what I perceive, with these and their upstream counterparts.

My computer-illiterate parents and grandparents, aunts, and uncles are NEVER going to "find" these forks.

===================================================================================================

I propose a morphed version of something like this (from here - https://www.freepnglogos.com/images/beats-png-logo-5027.html )

Only three colors for the 'fox/panda', maybe four, then the fifth color is what is in red below.

But the "b" would be an "R" (for Roytam) [or for Red Panda, lol].

And I propose the same EXACT icon be used for ALL of Roytam's builds.

The "red" area would be one color for New Moon, another color for Serpent, yet another for Borealis.

Roytam adds another unknown browser down the road, it's the same exact icon but a fourth color is introduced.

mozilla-firefox-beat-png-logo-20.png

===================================================================================================

I would also vote to *NOT* do what has been done 'upstream'.

New "official" Pale Moon versions have one systray icon when "pinned" (Win10) and closed, another icon when opened.

I for one do *NOT* like my systray icons behaving this way.

Edited by ArcticFoxie
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@roytam1

Call the browsers as you like but leave the exe with the original name.

If you change the name of the exe, a multitude of software will no longer work, especially those specific for the protection of the browser used

which have strict rules for the various popular browsers used.

@LoneCrusader

Even if I'm in the minority, I think the same way you do.

 

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The MOZ_APP_NAME would stay the same of course, that's fine. Same with application.ini who's values failing the existence of some alt build configuration dictate the location of the application profile. SAME goes with NSIS generated installer/uninstaller and helper.exe used by both NSIS and shellservice as well as shellservice its self.

Unfortunately, this is set in stone and it is too unreasonable to change that stuff now. Maybe two years ago but not now as it would cause too much end-user trouble. Not to mention it would be annoying from a patch porting point of view. So that's fine. So just need to change the name in branding configure.sh, graphical assets, and l10n. Pretty simple once you have the name and logo.

Now, I can sort of dig the circles with lines in em and perhaps do something with the concept though they MAY be a bit abstract. However, I hope that modified Firefox logo is not a serious contender because clearly that would not acceptable to Mozilla as it would get the the drones all fired up in a second and of course blame us not you for it.

The general problem with the New Moon branding was it was intended to be basically like the Firefox Nightly branding and while yes it pulled double duty as generic branding anyone could use, it is still intrinsically linked to us and despite the feeling from some people here that there is and never has been any confusion, I can tell you there is.. People know that Pale Moon is the older Firefox-based browser with the interface of Firefox 4-28 and that builds are sometimes called New Moon. But with the divergent path of what continues to happen to support Windows XP what is produced isn't even going to be an unbranded Pale Moon for Windows XP as most people see it. Perhaps that is how you see it but as time goes on the differences mount.

Let me put it to you another way, what if we had just kept the original non-trademarked Nightly branding for Pale Moon, both Basilisk's, and you also created your other half-dozen Firefox-based builds.. ALL called Nightly because that is what was there. How could you tell them apart then? Is it reasonable to put the burden on us to explain to people that the Windows XP builds you produce aren't the same as someone else producing Windows 7 unbranded builds or unbranded mac builds which also use the New Moon branding because mac isn't at the official level yet.

The un-knowledgeable user who doesn't read more than maybe two sentences of a paragraph would assume New Moon == Pale Moon because they look the same and because despite being referred to as generic branding the name is too unique and intrinsically linked with us. This is the result of a decision made six years ago and it turns out to not have been a very good one on our part. Let me also say again, that this happens in the wild. THERE IS CONFUSION because I have specifically gone out of my way to berate and s*** on the confused user because it p***ed me the hell off and does every single time. Should I? No. Do I? Yeah. Should I continue to do so.. Well despite what one may conclude I actually don't know.. I do know that I don't really want to be angry about it anymore. I do know that over the past two years it has accomplished nothing. I also know that roytam1 took the unofficial branding as-is but hasn't been bothered to change it for whatever reason that may be. I do know I am a half-way decent designer and have the technical knowledge to implement it easily for roytam1 to slot into place. I also figured I had nothing to loose by str8 up offering to do it instead of expecting someone else to. A very common situation I find my self in a lot these days actually.

I talked, bitched, complained, pleaded with and begged SeaMonkey for almost 10 years to not turn out the way it turned out and it accomplished nothing but in the Pale Moon project and beyond to the Unified XUL Platform, lots of things have gotten done through hard a** work via cooperation, coordination, and discussion and maybe that should be applied elsewhere. Especially to places that have historically annoyed the hell out of me for whatever real or imagined reason. After all, it is a process to better ones self and help make world at large better too. Can't have it all in a day but you can't have anything if you don't try.

So I am trying (and yes there is likely a joke in there). Besides, I can't keep calling the paradigm "new" if it is the same old crap, eh?

Edited by Matt A. Tobin
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11 hours ago, ArcticFoxie said:

========================================

I propose a morphed version of something like this (from here - https://www.freepnglogos.com/images/beats-png-logo-5027.html )

Only three colors for the 'fox/panda', maybe four, then the fifth color is what is in red below.

But the "b" would be an "R" (for Roytam) [or for Red Panda, lol].

And I propose the same EXACT icon be used for ALL of Roytam's builds.

The "red" area would be one color for New Moon, another color for Serpent, yet another for Borealis.

Roytam adds another unknown browser down the road, it's the same exact icon but a fourth color is introduced.

mozilla-firefox-beat-png-logo-20.png

===========================================================

VERY nice proposition, I'm for this!

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I actually like what Matt wants to achieve with different branding for different operating systems. But since roytam1's doesn't want to have the work of going through the whole rebranding of his browsers (icons, banners, name...), here's my take.

The browser - which is actually some sort of Firefox fork - would have the same name across all OSes, a name of his own choice, I don't care which name it has (Pale Moon, New Moon, RoyFox...) BUT the version of it must have a codename that must refer to something to identify the OS version it supports. Every big company has a project with a codename (Apple with the failed Copland project and its successful macOS versions, Microsoft themselves does it since mid 90's, even I do that at my work).

For example, let's be open minded a bit here, just for a exercise... what if he actually names his browser as "RoyFox", and in its about window the codename it supports is there - for example, Whistler for XP? Then you would know it is for XP. Then you would know that you need RoyFox Whistler for XP, RoyFox Neptune for Windows 2000...

Same for the github repos: the branch name would be the codename, as well as the MSI/Executable installers of his browser.

That's my 2 cents on this subject. Everyone wins - he can use whatever name he likes and we can have a codename in which we can identify the OS each version of his forked Firefox browser supports. End of story.

Edited by Bruninho
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11 hours ago, Sampei.Nihira said:

@roytam1

Call the browsers as you like but leave the exe with the original name.

If you change the name of the exe, a multitude of software will no longer work, especially those specific for the protection of the browser used

which have strict rules for the various popular browsers used.

@LoneCrusader

Even if I'm in the minority, I think the same way you do.

+1 :worship:

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23 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

IMO re-using Microsoft code names that are completely unrelated seems to be going off on a weird tangent. Not to mention that Microsoft has now abandoned XP and is in the process of "disappearing it" from history. As noted by others, let's have more original names, preferably with some degree of relation to (or being derived from) the parent programs...

I suppose I should ask how you feel about RoyFox (perhaps with variations as @Mcinwwl suggested). I know you'd rather we not rebrand at all, but if it happens, we still want your opinion on what the new branding should be.

I'll give mine: I like "Moebius" for Serpent 55. I've been labeling my Serpent 55 icons "Moebius" long before @Matt A. Tobin suggested using the name.

The others, I don't have particularly strong feelings about. We could use all, some, or none of his suggested names. (Although if we go with Whistler, his suggested replacement for New Moon, we do already have a rather nice logo for it.)

20 hours ago, ArcticFoxie said:

Where did the name "New Moon" come from in the first place?

AIUI the name New Moon is a placeholder name built into the Pale Moon source repo and is automatically given to any unofficial builds of Pale Moon; it's not something @roytam1 came up with on his own (if it were we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place).

5 hours ago, Bruninho said:

what if he actually names his browser as "RoyFox", and in its about window the codename it supports is there - for example, Whistler for XP? Then you would know it is for XP. Then you would know that you need RoyFox Whistler for XP, RoyFox Neptune for Windows 2000...

I think there's some confusion here. All of the browsers under discussion target Windows XP and up. There aren't different browsers for different Windows versions. AFAIK none of these run on unmodified Win 2000. (With KernelEx, some may work; I don't know.)

That said, I do like your idea of using a "base" name like RoyFox with a "modifier," which could be @Matt A. Tobin's suggested names. So RoyFox Whistler would be @roytam1's Pale Moon fork, RoyFox Neptune would be his Borealis fork, etc.

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In the recent past, when we were trying to come up with an interim image for both Serpent 52 & 55 @roytam1 made crystal clear he opposes identifying his builds as "for XP", since they do work OK on later NT-family OSes. This is the one thing about branding we know precisely how he feels about.

57 minutes ago, Mathwiz said:

That said, I do like your idea of using a "base" name like RoyFox with a "modifier," which could be @Matt A. Tobin's suggested names. So RoyFox Whistler would be @roytam1's Pale Moon fork, RoyFox Neptune would be his Borealis fork, etc.

+1. Yet, I do still prefer Jörmungandr to any other name for Serpent 52. By the same token, it could be RoyFox Jörmungandr, of course!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jörmungandr#/media/File:Jormungandr.jpg
 

Rotated-Jormungandr.png

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Suggested name for Basilisk :Lernaean Hydra or just Hydra ,that monster from Greek mythology

New Moon : Moonmadness

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On 12/22/2019 at 6:43 PM, Mathwiz said:

That said, I do like your idea of using a "base" name like RoyFox with a "modifier," which could be @Matt A. Tobin's suggested names. So RoyFox Whistler would be @roytam1's Pale Moon fork, RoyFox Neptune would be his Borealis fork, etc.

Yes , this "RoyFox" strategy used as "RoyFox Whistler" (say) is the best choice (my view), agreed.
Also, stay with short, easy-to-spell ENGLISH Language reference names, like WHISTLER, NEPTUNE.
Even "ACHILLES" would be okay. @VistaLover might support that. :)

Naming it as "RT*Whistler" might work as official name, using an 'asterisk' is somewhat trendy.
You could then 'shorthand' refer to it as the RTW Bro wser. So have every RT Browser use a name
that begins with a *different* letter of the alphabet. So, RT*Achilles , RT*Babylon , RT*Cyclops ...
You could then refer to them as RTA , RTB , RTC , as 'short' names.

Say that "Neptune" is the name for RT NewMoon28 Browser. So, the full BRANDING name is "RT*Neptune" Browser ... Then you can 'short name' it like 'RTN28' (drop the 'asterisk' if desired) in Message References on MSFN here.

So, 'Matt A. Tobin' Browser (BOC) has been RT named as BNavigator ... So, use the FULL BRANDING name as "RT*BNavigator" ... And you can 'short name' it as "RTBNav" or even "RTBN" for referencing in Messages purposes ... Again, the 'key' being to have it that ALL the RT Browsers have a *unique* LETTER after the ASTERISK. Which, RT himself has been using "RT" in his websites and what all. So, " RT* " is the PREFIX for ALL the RT Browsers.

"RoyFox" used as a PREFIX on ALL the RT Browsers, fine with that here.
That could be shortened to "RF" ... So, "RF*Neptune" (using 'asterisk' again).

Noticing that RT 'Joke Browser Name' suggestions are now very common here, no surprise.

Anyway, whatever 'Mathwiz' likes it, I will guess that I can accept it with no problem.

Edited by TechnoRelic

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