On Branding RoyTam1's Browsers

[LoneCrusader]

13 hours ago, TechnoRelic said:

I do not see Matt A. Tobin as say:
"The Enemy of 'Old Boys' Who Insistent on using Windows XP OS"
Let 'us' (RT) move toward Matt A. Tobin, rather than away from him.

Then, I'm sorry to say, you insist upon remaining willfully ignorant of past events.

I wasted several hours of my day digging up these old links. I know they won't change your mind, but here they are for the record. Almost all of these were linked in the previous thread for this project, so there's no reason you shouldn't be aware of them.

----------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Tobin heaping praise on those who spread disparaging FUD against Windows XP:
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=13060
NOTE - I was banned from their forum for daring to disagree here. I was later reinstated by Moonchild, but he still refused to answer most of my arguments.
Good riddance; I never went back.

Directly plotting to sabotage code against XP & whining about "us":
https://freenode.logbot.info/binaryoutcast/20190223#c2019477
https://freenode.logbot.info/binaryoutcast/20190223#c2019486

Threatening to withdraw his code repo with the intent to "hinder" us XP-users:
https://freenode.logbot.info/binaryoutcast/20190225#c2024612
https://freenode.logbot.info/binaryoutcast/20190225#c2024789

Trashing XP/users:
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16241&start=240#p167582

Targetting Fedor2 and his "friends":
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=169823#p169823

Trashing Vista/users:
https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/UXP/issues/817#issuecomment-433252852

Acting like an a$$hole to BSD developers (those he refers to as "poor a$$ Linux developers"):
https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86

----------------------------------------------------------

I will waste no more of my time debating with anyone who simply chooses to ignore anything negative that has been said before, just because "nice things" are happening now. The passage of time does not erase past wrongs, or make them any "less wrong." Sometimes it is possible to make peace, and there's nothing wrong with that. But making peace with someone does not imply that they are suddenly to become a "friend" that you wish to deal with or work with.

6 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

Admittedly, there's zero benefit to me from new branding. At best, we'll get some spiffy new icons, and new artwork in Help / About, but the core functionality of our UXP-derived browsers isn't changing.

The difference I see is that this time, @Matt A. Tobin is offering to do a good portion of the necessary work. And I don't see that we're sacrificing anything; if we are, please enlighten me. I'd be much more dubious about this if I though we were losing anything concrete .

I suppose I see this as an issue of "principle." Sure, some will not see it as "concrete."

I'm very glad that Mr. Tobin seems to be developing a better attitude. I'm impressed by the fact that he's now willing to make some small contribution to the project. However, I find it distasteful that someone who has gone so far to cause trouble in the past is now going to "make choices" for something to do with this project that he has previously disparaged at every opportunity. He trashed the project and its users over and over, his behavior was ridiculous (see links above and the previous thread), and now you guys want to let him be the one to put a face on it? Really? After all roytam1's hard work and time spent, after all the criticism he faced, and now that same person is to be the one who names and brands the project? What an insult. Has anyone taken into consideration that roytam1 does not need, and may not want, Mr. Tobin's help? By pushing for these changes you are effectively railroading him toward a "peace settlement," and placing him in a position where he's being expected to "collaborate" with someone who has been a constant thorn in his side for however long now. I could only speak for myself, and it's irrelevant here because it's not my project, but if I were in roy's shoes, my answer would be a resounding and unequivocal NO.

[Matt A. Tobin]

I'm sorry LoneCrusader but by invoking the bsd-wip github issue you have lost any credibility among any of us over here. I will take responsibility for what I said on the Pale Moon forums and in my channel. I even take responsibility for what I said in that github issue BUT in THAT CASE I was in the right and there is no denying that from any rational mind. Could a word order change have not evoked such a disproportionate response from them?

I have asked that question many times since then. I want to say yes but I know those bsd people are batshit insane. They don't respect intellectual property OR software licenses wanting to treat everything as public domain and/or theirs without cause and are at a level of fanaticism that outshines even my self. So no. You don't get to cite that as a valid argument against me to promote blatant anti-Tobinism. I won't stand for it. You're done.

Fortunately for the rest of everyone who isn't you, I am not going to let that impact the start of what I hope will be better times. So to everyone else, nothing has been impacted by LoneCrusader's machinations. I stand by what I have offered and suggested.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Matt A. Tobin

[Mcinwwl]

3 hours ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

They don't respect intellectual property

Because intellectual property does not exist and Stallman was right, ya'nou...

@LoneCrusader We remember the past and all know it was not always milk and honey, but hey, when's the option to change for better, I'm into peace negotiations, or at least instable truce, as better option than constant warfare. That's egoistic from me, but I just think it might be better as for an end-user of the Roytam's build, as he'll have more time for builds, having savings in less arguments... and I don't see anything ethically invalid in my stance, as Roytam agreed to work on that proposal already, just a few posts before.

I have a feeling that your past issues with mr. Tobin and MCP, that you mentioned few hundred posts before and that are by far pre-dating Roytam's builds for XP being announced here on MSFN, are vastly affecting your view on the events here. You might be right that war will rage on soon again. But form me it's better to try to work diplomatically, as Roy might gain projects stability in long term, and worst case he'll loose some work done. Tradeoff worth checking.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Mcinwwl

[roytam1]

3 hours ago, Mcinwwl said:

Roytam agreed to work on that proposal already, just a few posts before.

I think I'd just stated the possibilities, not giving out "Yes" or "No". I'm open my mind for having rebranding, or not, by how people want. As I stated before, whatever rebranding happen or not I'll still build binaries for my use.

 

3 hours ago, Mcinwwl said:

that are by far pre-dating Roytam's builds

remember my first PM public build is 2017-09-29 (hey, I kept building PM builds over 2 years! in the past, I built my own firefox 3/4 builds from 2010-04-15 to 2012-04-27, and also firefox 1.x to 2.x builds starting from 2006-03-16)

Edited December 21, 2019 by roytam1

[Mcinwwl]

Thanks for clarifying!

52 minutes ago, roytam1 said:

I'm open my mind for having rebranding, or not, by how people want.

I'd say we have more votes for "yes" by now.

56 minutes ago, roytam1 said:

remember my first PM public build is 2019-09-29 (hey, I kept building PM builds over 2 years! in the past, I built my own firefox 3/4 builds from 2010-04-15 to 2012-04-27, and also firefox 1.x to 2.x builds starting from 2006-03-16)

I edited my post to make it express what I really meant to I had no need to look for niche builds until FF stopped supporting XP.

[sparty411]

3 hours ago, Mcinwwl said:

Because intellectual property does not exist and Stallman was right, ya'nou...

where is the lie?

[roytam1]

1 hour ago, Mcinwwl said:

Thanks for clarifying!

I'd say we have more votes for "yes" by now.

I edited my post to make it express what I really meant to I had no need to look for niche builds until FF stopped supporting XP.

just reviewed my post and found there is a typo in the year. It should be in 2017 not 2019 for my first PM build.

[siria]

Rebranding ect.:
I've always had a clear opinion myself that different builds and versions should be easily discernible for users. And easily, without needing expert knowledge. Otherwise confusions are intended and will lead to completely unnecessary probs and wasting much time, without any need.
Side note: similar prob by the way for K-Meleon. Before the version upgrade to 76.1, all modern Goanna builds declared themselves as "K-Meleon 76", exactly the same as the much older Gecko builds from 2016, which are also "K-Meleon 76". No way for users to tell apart, except at download time, before unzipping and running it (at least the 7z package has a different name, KM-Goanna, but that will quickly be forgotten.) Although our KM main dev had already suggested the logical next version 77 for those much advanced Goanna builds, before vanishing again.
But I was rather lonely with that opinion too, and got attacked for it from several fellow KM fans, when daring to mention it 2-3 times. No idea why it's so hard to grasp that such intentional confusions are causing completely unnecessary probs for others and should be avoided, at least if requiring hardly any effort, only insight.

Back to here. To me, this current conflict too just demonstrates all over again that almost all extremely one-sided black/white ideologies are just harmful. And again shows that strictly ideological parties aren't ready to move 1mm, no matter how much it harms others - as long as not forced by external circumstances. No chance if not yet harming themselves too much too, strongly enough, beyond their own limit. Luckily, this point and insight seems to finally be reached now - Yay! :D

Tobin has done a GREAT step forward, although it's clear it's not a general change of attitude or end of war, but that doesn't matter. It's still a very positive and acceptable step forward (for now), much more as could be expected, with no strings attached (it seems, and hopefully no trojan horse)
And finally there's also a real chance to move a bit forward from the other side too, taking the outstretched helpful hand for the benefit of both, and for less expert users too :-)

Regardless that fundamental opinions and attitudes never change, but solving single issues independently is still possible and helps all sides!

[Mathwiz]

14 hours ago, ArcticFoxie said:

The "branding" should be treaded lightly....

I eventually landed on a precursor (?) to New Moon.

I forget the name of it but the "branding" was a RACCOON waving his paw.

Sounds "trivial" perhaps, but the RACCOON turned me away from that browser.

Despite its functionality meeting ALL of my needs.

The "branding" cut my time short with my trial of that browser.

...

I used GreenBrowser + Proxomitron exclusively from 2003/2004 all the way thru 2017/2018.

But...  Proxomitron was "high maintenance".

I was fine with all of the "maintenance" - it was the web MY WAY and not the way that "script kiddies" threw it at me.

But...  It became too much of a hassle to edit and tweak for a couple credit card websites at the time.

That led me to abandoning GreenBrowser + Proxomitron.

One of my gripes against v28 is because I do *not* 'want' to update each and every week.  That borders again on "high maintenance".  I would prefer kind of knowing which weekly release is best associated with the "stable" upstream versus the "nightly" upstream.  I don't really have a need to update my browser each and every week.

Anyone who finds the suggested "Whistler" branding for NM 28 objectionable, should let us know now, while there's still time to change it. Seems pretty innocuous to me, but you never know what might turn folks off unless you ask!

For the @roytam1 NM browsers that are usually updated each week, the best way to do what you want would be to wait until the version number changes, then download the last build of the previous version. That would be closest to the eventual release version.

OTOH, if you always want the latest, greatest version, @i430VX has an installer that takes the drudgery out of updating your browser!

12 hours ago, msfntor said:

- I see "Arctic RoyFox", "New RoyFox", and "RoyFox 52", too "RoyFox 55" (and beyond....) new brandings, what do you think about?

I'm sure it doesn't mean the same thing in Chinese, but in Latin, "Roy" means "king;" so for me, "RoyFox" conjures up an image of a fox with a crown on its head! Then again, that might trigger a "raccoon"-like reaction with some folks....

Edited to add that @caliber suggested a nice "RoyFox" logo a few pages back. No crown but it looks nice to me.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Mathwiz

[siria]

Mathwiz said:
> Anyone who finds the suggested "Whistler" branding for NM 28 objectionable,
> should let us know now, while there's still time to change it. Seems pretty innocuous to me,
> but you never know what might turn folks off unless you ask!

Nothing objectionable, but turning off from completely "unknown" browsers without even taking a short look is quite normal. Therefore, to give clueless users at least a tiny hint about origins and intentions, I'd find it helpful to keep stubs like -fox- and -moon- in some way, and add "X" somewhere as hint if the XP-capability is crucial for a build. Of course, not only for completely clueless newbies, but also helpful for the rest of us to easier remember what's what :-)

[Mcinwwl]

34 minutes ago, Mathwiz said:

I'm sure it doesn't mean the same thing in Chinese, but in Latin, "Roy" means "king;"

Not latin, but spanish - it's 'Rex' in latin. Maybe you mistaken it with 'lation' languages?

3 minutes ago, siria said:

Nothing objectionable, but turning off from completely "unknown" browsers without even taking a short look is quite normal. Therefore, to give clueless users at least a tiny hint about origins and intentions, I'd find it helpful to keep stubs like -fox- and -moon- in some way, and add "X" somewhere as hint if the XP-capability is crucial for a build. Of course, not only for completely clueless newbies, but also helpful for the rest of us to easier remember what's what :-)

I'm into [SOMETHING]Fox for XP syntax,

[ClassicNick]

4 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

the best way to do what you want would be to wait until the version number changes, then download the last build of the previous version.

I personally believe the rebrand should take place, as well as sticking to the 28.x (presently New Moon) builds until 29.x becomes unsupported/surpassed by a potential version 30. When it comes to browser names, using code names from older Microsoft products does make sense (and shares a common theme), but I would prefer more original names.

[Mathwiz]

28 minutes ago, Mcinwwl said:

Not latin, but spanish

You're right, of course; those languages are closely related and I just got them mixed up in my head.

Actually I just remembered: it's rey in Spanish; roy is French! Apologies to speakers of both languages.

On 12/17/2019 at 10:47 AM, DanR20 said:

Good news for UBO users: gorhill has updated the legacy version to 1.16.4.12. Glad to see since I actually prefer this to the newer ones.

On 12/17/2019 at 10:57 AM, Sampei.Nihira said:

It is thanks to Just Off.

For Raymond Hill UBO Legacy is just a waste of time:

https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBlock-issues/issues/810

It sounds like JustOff (author of uBO Updater) is essentially taking over further development of the legacy branch of uBO while Gorhill concentrates on the WE branch. Probably just as well.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Mathwiz

[VistaLover]

2 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

Actually I just remembered: it's rey in Spanish; roy is French! Apologies to speakers of both languages.

... Actually, king in French is roi (Le Roi = The King, La Reine = The Queen); but obviously this is going OT at the speed of light, so I had better shut up... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy

Edited December 21, 2019 by VistaLover
Added wiki link!

[dencorso]

The @LoneCrusader is a dear friend and it grieves me to be pushed into arguing publicly with him about this, but I was never given any choice about it, since he seems to be the main (and, ATM, only) voice oposing the (re-)branding of the browsers. That said...

19 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

I will waste no more of my time debating with anyone who simply chooses to ignore anything negative that has been said before, just because "nice things" are happening now. The passage of time does not erase past wrongs, or make them any "less wrong." Sometimes it is possible to make peace, and there's nothing wrong with that. But making peace with someone does not imply that they are suddenly to become a "friend" that you wish to deal with or work with.

True enough. But, while not forgetting, moving on is sometimes required, and I think this is one such case.

On 12/20/2019 at 6:28 AM, LoneCrusader said:

I will never understand the "peace at any price" mentality, no matter how many times I encounter it. But now it appears there will be "Peace in our time!" So be it.

There is a time for appeasing, and one for open confilct. I hope we won't keep arguing uselessly until we are beyond all possible compromise. Most of those in this thread are for the (re-)branding. I think that PoV has already won by acclamation.

19 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

Has anyone taken into consideration that roytam1 does not need, and may not want, Mr. Tobin's help? By pushing for these changes you are effectively railroading him toward a "peace settlement," and placing him in a position where he's being expected to "collaborate" with someone who has been a constant thorn in his side for however long now.

... and you are the only one doing quite a strong effort to derail any compromise, when most of us don't see the facts in the same light as you do.