Browsing the web on 98/ME in 2019 and beyond

[Goodmaneuver]

Dates as versions numbers do not exhibit much about the product and can be checked with the operating system ie, right click properties. Am I right in saying sheet to describe a shell window like desktop properties or file properties, is it a window, message or sheet? I think the 3 integer fields can represent a better discrepancy excluding any reference to date when naming a KEX version.
 

[siria]

This doesn't really convince me that versioning were "not" complicated ;-)
I do my best to be accurate, but misunderstandings can still happen.

Just since you mention 4.5.1, just one important thing for clueless readers to know:
Never ever install a version OLDER as 4.5.2!
I remember that years ago, before the final and STABLE version 4.5.2 was released, I first had an older versions installed. Not sure if 4.5.1 or yet older. And this had a killer bug which completely messed my system, since it simply DELETED the crucial windows file kernel32.dll after UNinstall. Had major trouble retrieving that file from a backup, to make Windows work again. Thankfully this was fixed afterwards, since the original system files are not replaced on disk anymore, only in RAM (if I got it right). So such accidents can not happen anymore.
This "good old stable" version 4.5.2 is really quite safe to install and UNinstall, without unwelcome side-effects. Especially if the default installation option "disabled" is chosen.
Later beta versions (2016.16/17) had killer probs again, since somehow the "disabled" option doesn't seem to work anymore, killing a few old native win98 tools. Must still use it though, needed for fallback browser and also helps a few other younger apps to run. Some day will try to update to a newer version again, but need time and full backups and not sure how exactly, sigh.

[Bruninho]

40 minutes ago, siria said:

This doesn't really convince me that versioning were "not" complicated ;-)
I do my best to be accurate, but misunderstandings can still happen.

Just since you mention 4.5.1, just one important thing for clueless readers to know:
Never ever install a version OLDER as 4.5.2!
I remember that years ago, before the final and STABLE version 4.5.2 was released, I first had an older versions installed. Not sure if 4.5.1 or yet older. And this had a killer bug which completely messed my system, since it simply DELETED the crucial windows file kernel32.dll after UNinstall. Had major trouble retrieving that file from a backup, to make Windows work again. Thankfully this was fixed afterwards, since the original system files are not replaced on disk anymore, only in RAM (if I got it right). So such accidents can not happen anymore.
This "good old stable" version 4.5.2 is really quite safe to install and UNinstall, without unwelcome side-effects. Especially if the default installation option "disabled" is chosen.
Later beta versions (2016.16/17) had killer probs again, since somehow the "disabled" option doesn't seem to work anymore, killing a few old native win98 tools. Must still use it though, needed for fallback browser and also helps a few other younger apps to run. Some day will try to update to a newer version again, but need time and full backups and not sure how exactly, sigh.
 

Tried it last night (4.5.2), and even with the .24 update (I couldn’t find .18) browsing is still a nightmare. No youtube either. Win98 is pretty much dead.

While on my Win 2000 the experience is much better with BWC, newer browsers and youtube works, great experience. Especially with SeaMonkey 2.49.5!

Edited February 2, 2020 by Bruninho

[Goodmaneuver]

Siria: I use Paragon Partition Manager 5.6, package vs 6.0, I think it is free I got mine from a magazine, are you sure you do not understand this https://msfn.org/board/topic/180571-hd-ac97-audio-beyond-the-137gb128gib-barrier/?do=findComment&comment=1174759 .The Win98 tools should work when KEX set disabled on the Exe. Programs are launched under Explorer.exe and if KEX is unset on the program then the program is launched under what setting Explorer has. If Explorer is set disabled, (I have not tried this setting) then the programs should launch KEX disabled. I run Explorer with legacy base enhancements at the moment, if the programs were 16 bit then try to disable their implicit 32 bit load modules IMO.
 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Goodmaneuver
Addressed to Siria as Bruninho & I must have posted almost at the same time

[Wunderbar98]

Please don't burst my bubble Bruninho, if Windows 98 installs and runs it's not dead! Guess it comes down to wants, needs and expectations. Of course you mean in regards to the 'modern internet' and probably also for those who want everything plug and play. Then you're correct, this i will concede.

However, even using vanilla Windows 98 RetroZilla is still being patched, a new release this week. With proper configuration it connects to almost every site. Windows 98 is capable of accessing most YouTube with fullscreen playback. Virtualization of a modern browser is possible, just tested a recent SeaMonkey, but it needs lots of horsepower. There's still KernelEx chatter on the forum. With R. Loew's memory patch Windows 98 can apparently access 4 GB RAM. Processors up to 2.6 GHz work, pretty decent hardware. Not sure what other goodies R. Loew's family was kind enough to pass along. Maybe someone with his skill will carry the torch.

Aside, there's a SeaMonkey v2.53.1_Beta1 release, if you want to test a next generation release in Windows 2000.

[Bruninho]

13 hours ago, Wunderbar98 said:

Please don't burst my bubble Bruninho, if Windows 98 installs and runs it's not dead! Guess it comes down to wants, needs and expectations. Of course you mean in regards to the 'modern internet' and probably also for those who want everything plug and play. Then you're correct, this i will concede.

However, even using vanilla Windows 98 RetroZilla is still being patched, a new release this week. With proper configuration it connects to almost every site. Windows 98 is capable of accessing most YouTube with fullscreen playback. Virtualization of a modern browser is possible, just tested a recent SeaMonkey, but it needs lots of horsepower. There's still KernelEx chatter on the forum. With R. Loew's memory patch Windows 98 can apparently access 4 GB RAM. Processors up to 2.6 GHz work, pretty decent hardware. Not sure what other goodies R. Loew's family was kind enough to pass along. Maybe someone with his skill will carry the torch.

Aside, there's a SeaMonkey v2.53.1_Beta1 release, if you want to test a next generation release in Windows 2000.

Sorry, that was not my intention, and yes, I was referring to the 'modern internet'. I also want to use Windows 98 not only for browsing but also for my retro gaming stuff, like Championship Manager 3, FIFA 99, Flight Simulator 98, SimTower and things like that.

For me the parameter in testing is, "is this browser still capable of playing an youtube video?" if not, then you can forget 'modern internet' browsing in it. I tested Retrozilla and I couldn't even render the YT page correctly. I was expecting to at least be able to render the mobile versions of some sites (which is usually a stripped down version of their sites and - in some cases - works well in retro computers) but no luck either. Some forums don't even render their CSS. But OK, I recognize the feat that retrozilla is, as a browser capable of TLS 1.2 browsing and some other good features, I really applaud the effort, don't get me wrong on that.

I wouldn't mind using some script to pass the video from the YT page to VLC, I can accept a such method to circumvent this problem. But there's also other pages, not only YT. (I don't expect a browser for W98 capable of rendering modern CSS3 and HTML5 either).

As for SeaMonkey, the developers of this browser has stated that 2.49.5 is the last version of this browser for Windows XP, and I believe that BlackWingCat's kernel extensions for Windows 2000 can only go as far as the XP versions for the softwares we want to use. I don't think the next versions will work, but doesn't hurt to try it...

[siria]

Bruninho said:
> (KernelEx) Tried it last night (4.5.2), and even with the .24 update (I couldn’t find .18)
> browsing is still a nightmare. No youtube either. Win98 is pretty much dead.
> While on my Win 2000 the experience is much better with BWC, newer browsers and
> youtube works, great experience. Especially with SeaMonkey 2.49.5!

Overall it's certainly true that using Win98 in todays web is a major struggle. Lots of tweaking and dedication required, constantly needing new little fixes, that only makes sense if either no other OS choice or being really enthousiast about it. Just for a bit occasional fun it's a waste of time.

But judging the overall internet fitness based on youtube is IMO not realistic, since Google does everything to mess its sites on older browsers, sometimes even quite sneakily for modern Firefox versions.
And yes, there are userscripts which help to download YT videos to watch in standalone players (look e.g. for the tweaked viewtube script posted recently by... (guess vikmin?)
It also helps to install tools and stuff like the KLiteCodec pack etc
And yes, as you said, mobile website versions if available, example:
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=%28k-meleon%29+OR+kmeleon+OR+%40kmeleontwin+-_Kmeleon+since%3A2019-10-01&s=typd&x=0&y=0
https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/cuk9g1/heres_a_rootless_adb_list_of_samsung_bloatware_to/
But additionally some sites require special useragent strings
And/or depending on browser version, also css-tweaks, etc. ,which cost a lot of time figuring out.
Or killing css-styles altogether.
Or if all else fails, then load from Google cache or Google Weblight

BUT most of all:
you have a modern KernelEx installed, yet still only tried Retrozilla (like FF2), that gives a completely wrong impression!
Retrozilla or FF2 are only the last rescue for vanilla versions, without any KernelEx

Even with good old basic KernelEx4.5.2 there are better choices, for example roytam1's TLS-build of Firefox3.6 (fx36), this engine is much better as FF2 already.
Or until 1-2 years ago old Opera12.02 was almost fully functional, which had a very advanced engine for its era, containing some html5 and some TLS1.2 ciphers already. Just recently getting a bit short of breath on some sites.
Firefox9 seems to run stable too, except for the pesky missing ciphers of course.

But with your cutting edge version of KernelEx you can get a LOT further, am just not sure where the limits are??
Would start tests on top:
RT-Version of NewMoon27 / Tycho. No clue, any chance??
Someone with a very heavily tweaked 98 system mentioned he can run KM-Goanna76, same engine as NM27. And have seen that jumper (who develops KernelEx) has a testing eye on it too, perhaps hope for the future ;-)
On a lower level, there are RT-builds of NewMoon26 for vanilla Win2000, and same engine in KM-Goanna74.
That means engine era of Firefox24, a HUGE difference to Firefox2/Retrozilla. Well, IF running...
Personally I'd be most interested in experiences with KG74.

With my older Kex16/17 at the moment, and being KM-Fan, am currently struggling with a mix of KM1.6/KG74/KMz154, juggling with the flaws of each. The killer prob for KM is the huge gap between the two TLS1.2 browsers, between Firefox2 and PaleMoon26 engines. KMz154 has an engine far too old for daily use, and KG74 is far too buggy yet on my lesser tweaked machine. The engine itself seems quite good, the prob is rather the KM-shell, especially crashing menus, some weird 0.2sec freeze for every single link on a page, a prob with sqlite etc. Am sure some of those are connected to "normal" bugs, not system related. And hope that it works better in newer KernelEx versions, just couldn't try yet. Meanwhile could save myself temporarily by adding TLS1.2 partly to KM1.6 (FF3.5) using DIY experiments, but helps only partially. At least it can now load the same sites as Opera12.02 (wikipedia, twitter, etc)
RT-Firefox3.6 runs stable of course and with full TLS1.2, even with KernelEx4.5.2, good compromise, just cannot do any FF-tweaks myself ;-)

Important: don't forget to set the matching KernelEx CompatModes, in the exe properties tab
And when renaming a folder, remember that setting gets lost and must be renewed again.

[Wunderbar98]

Hi Bruninho, no need to apologize, everyone has an opinion, you didn't hurt my feeling. It's obvious you still have your humanity switch turned on, nice to see. This type of open discussion is interesting and stimulating. Forgot you already mentioned SeaMonkey dropped XP support, so yeah probably little chance it will work in Windows 2000, even with kernel extensions.

[DosFreak]

Blackwingcat implements Vista functions as well so don't make that assumption. Try it and see. If it doesn't work let him know.

[Bruninho]

@siria: I tried several versions of Firefox, Opera, SeaMonkey and nothing worked as expected. I'm on KernelEx 4.5.2016 (I hope I've mentioned it correctly, @jumper) and although some versions loaded, some of them crashed on me, some others just didn't render pages well, or are well broken. jumper has mentioned before in another thread that there were some regressions in his builds so I might give a go with the official KernelEx 4.5.2.

On Windows 98 SE virtual machine, I'm currently using Fx 3.6.28 and RetroZilla 2.2, and I'm not satisfied with it yet.

Actually I am more inclined to stay on my Windows 2000 (+ BWC) virtual machine, since I am running the latest New Moon (28.9.0a1, from RoyTam1) and SeaMonkey 2.49.5. Both browsers render well almost ALL of the pages I visit routinely (no banking sites, ofc).

@DosFreak: I haven't tried newer versions yet, but I can try, I just need to be arsed to do a snapshot to save it before trying.

In my opinion, after some lost good nights of sleep, I can only see KM74G (Goanna 2.2) and Fx 3.6.28 as good candidates for Windows 98, but they need some work to be useable and stable. 

Edit: Opera 12.02 still crashes on me severely. Specifically, when I try to load certain sites.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Bruninho
Updating post

[Goodmaneuver]

Bruninho :- Have you unicows and USP10 and psapi and MSI and DirectX update installed? Check Opera crash report in Temp folder. When crashes if cannot remove the last loaded page in time, the start without any plugins or pages loaded second option is the way to go. Also a Windows restart may fix it. I do not need to restart Windows anymore though. Also opera has to exit fully before restarting so if restart menu pops up after a crash then close the restart window to allow Opera to exit then start Opera. As mentioned elsewhere Flash pages will crash with latest KEX if flash plugin is installed. Did you install Opera_1100_int_Setup.msi and try that before updating to 12.02. I have given more instructions here https://msfn.org/board/topic/178283-how-you-really-browse-the-web-on-98me-in-2019/?do=findComment&comment=1162500 The plugins load if media is to be played so make sure DirectX is working.
 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Goodmaneuver

[Bruninho]

8 hours ago, Goodmaneuver said:

Bruninho :- Have you unicows and USP10 and psapi and MSI and DirectX update installed? Check Opera crash report in Temp folder. When crashes if cannot remove the last loaded page in time, the start without any plugins or pages loaded second option is the way to go. Also a Windows restart may fix it. I do not need to restart Windows anymore though. Also opera has to exit fully before restarting so if restart menu pops up after a crash then close the restart window to allow Opera to exit then start Opera. As mentioned elsewhere Flash pages will crash with latest KEX if flash plugin is installed. Did you install Opera_1100_int_Setup.msi and try that before updating to 12.02. I have given more instructions here https://msfn.org/board/topic/178283-how-you-really-browse-the-web-on-98me-in-2019/?do=findComment&comment=1162500 The plugins load if media is to be played so make sure DirectX is working.
 

I killed the VM, but I can make another one next weekend if I can have time to try out again. The last VM had Win 98SE, Unofficial Service Pack 3.64, DirectX 9.0c (dec 2006) and KernelEx 4.5.2 (and later the following unofficial update here). I don't know what is USP10 and where to find psapi and MSI, never knew why.

[Goodmaneuver]

Microsoft Installer update and Usp10.dll, Uniscribe Script Processor, should be included in the SP-3.64. Psapi.dll is obtained from within top post on page 9 of this topic. 

[Bruninho]

2 hours ago, Goodmaneuver said:

Microsoft Installer update and Usp10.dll, Uniscribe Script Processor, should be included in the SP-3.64. Psapi.dll is obtained from within top post on page 9 of this topic. 

Thanks. On saturday I will look into this and try again. So far I've been busy with work and other projects... along with a recent light illness from the start of the week, but I'm fine now.

[Bruninho]

To my surprise, VMware does not offer Direct3D support on Windows 98, only XP and above (although Windows 2000 does get it working).

I heard that PCem does have support, so I found a macOS port to try it out. Unfortunately it lacks support for macOS Catalina and it's v14, while v15 was released recently and has no macOS port. Therefore I'll have to wait for someone to compile a v15 port for macOS Catalina.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Bruninho