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Jody Thornton

Windows XP - Deepest Impressions

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6 hours ago, XP-x64-Lover said:

Well said@LoneCrusader; I couldn't of said it better myself. :thumbup

No it's not well said.  XP-x64 Lover.  This thread is ALL ABOUT criticism of Windows XP and whether or not it should be used now.  My posts are actually ON TOPIC and relevant here.  Anyone accusing me of trolling is being a hypocrite.  You're telling all I can do is agree with the rest of you (that's being sheeple).  No one learns anything that way.

 

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@JodyT :)

Come on, it all started again because of a simple misunderstanding :w00t: :ph34r:

On 10/31/2017 at 1:03 AM, Jody Thornton said:

I think maybe it's best - right or wrong, for me to take a break from this for awhile. 

For *some* reasons there has been some form of miscommunication, some members seemingly expected that "awhile" was a lot longer than 1 year.

jaclaz

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Very funny @jaclaz, again this all came up because of the Firefox 52 petition.  I wasn't coming to poop on XP.

But really, I must know why is it OK to poop on Windows 10 (in a Windows 10 Forum), and I hate it too by the way, but even the slightest criticism of XP's continued place in IT use is not acceptable?  There seems to be a disconnect there.

 

EDIT: moving threads made it seem like I just came back to crap on XP, and that was not the context my statements from yesterday were made.

 

Edited by Jody Thornton
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XP is like a deity here, even our own forum owner has taken his name in honor of the beloved Windows XP! :worship:

Is this a conversation about Windows XP being used in IT (read: in corporate/enterprise environment that often has to follow some sort of security regulations that XP cannot comply with) or people just using Windows XP for fun, hobbyist, specialized products or general home use? There are many valid arguments as for why XP should not be used in a corporate environment, and you can probably bet that any such instances of XP in those environments are going to be because they run specialized applications that do not work on modern systems. You can win that argument. I don't think you would if you started arguing against a person's personal habits.

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7 hours ago, jaclaz said:

...(you don't open a shop in a gated alley inside a private compound, you open it in a place as visible and as trafficked as possible).

It depends critically on what one's peddling (and on how much demand does it have)... :unsure:

6 hours ago, risk_reversal said:

My car is 17 years old. Running perfectly well and has very low mileage. Should I also just get rid of that too because it does not have all the latest features

Way to go! Mine is 15! :yes:

4 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

EDIT: moving threads made it seem like I just came back to crap on XP, and that was not the context my statements from yesterday were made.

I'm sorry about that. Really! That's why I delayed moving these posts. But, at the end of the day, here they're on a better place, IMO.
Moreover, it's good to stir the pot sometimes. Things here were too slow, of late (highlighting, in fact, how good XP actually is, because if it were real crap, we'd be too busy troubleshooting issues to even care about philosophising), so it's good to see so many of us expressing their POVs. And yes, this thread is just for that, just like its sister thread in the 10 forum.
And make no mistake: I see petitioning Firefox to keep supporting XP pointless, but even somewhat disrespectful, because (i) they were the ones who supported it the longest voluntarily and (ii) their code is open, so anyone is welcome to fork it and keep support (as, in fact, @roytam1 and Feodor2 already have done)... 
The XP community at present is just below 4% of the martket: New Moon, Basilisk and MyPal are more than enough to keep going, and IE8 and the last Chrome are also there for specific uses. We should count ourselves blessed with having raspberries aplenty, not asking for Sebian raspberries, when ours are sourced elsewhere. Much worse would be not having any raspberries, ain't it?


sei_21201306.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Tripredacus said:

There are many valid arguments as for why XP should not be used in a corporate environment, and you can probably bet that any such instances of XP in those environments are going to be because they run specialized applications that do not work on modern systems. You can win that argument. I don't think you would if you started arguing against a person's personal habits.

As a matter of fact, that particular argument is tougher to win, EXACTLY because in those environments those specialized application are actually NEEDED to do some actual work (as opposed to ordering random crap on Amazon or e-bay, watching youtube videos of lolcats, etc.).

This said, in those cases (of still using XP in a corporate environment), the use of XP is generally (rightly) limited to PC's that need not an internet connection, and curiously enough an XP install (and programs of XP era) tend to have much less *need* to be internet connected.

Surely, I never heard of XP reversing from Pro to Home (which in a networked environment should equate more or less to complete havoc), like seemingly Windows 10 has started doing today (JFYI):

https://msfn.org/board/topic/174896-official-windows-10-worst-crap-ever/?page=78&tab=comments#comment-1156138

jaclaz

 

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7 hours ago, jaclaz said:

Fun fact, set aside rotary dials, at least here in Italy so-called toll-free numbers (starting by 800) tend to be actually toll free only from a land line (and not reachable from cellular), and most firms that provide such numbers have a separate number (with a small, but still not-free) fee. (and when the stupid[1] answering system doesn't offer the actual option you need -which is nearly always - and you actually need to talk to an operator, it is not unusual to wait for several minutes on hold).

Fun fact continues, because here, in Poland, free calls onto both cellular and stationary phones from mobile phones, just included in subscription, became nearly a common standard[2]. What is so fun (for me) in this case, is that as we usually try to reach richer, western European countries, but the standard of cellular phoning or internet subscriptions is said to be fairly faster and cheaper than in those countries. I actually had a visit of a friend from nearby Torino this year who complained how bad this particular thing  look like in his area compared to what he sees in here.

Sorry for off-topic, but I had to express my national pride ;)

4 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

But really, I must know why is it OK to poop on Windows 10 (in a Windows 10 Forum), and I hate it too by the way, but even the slightest criticism of XP's continued place in IT use is not acceptable?

Some sort of positive feedback phenomenon - this board has many people attracted to (and maintaining!) old systems and software, so it generates more content in this matter, which attracts more and more old-system lovers, who talk more about old systems which leads into creation of specific milieu, social capital, local culture where old systems take a significant place, and their criticism is nearly haram.

There is no problem in finding boards that attracts lovers of newer systems more, but they probably don't gather together so many XP-lovers in one place... oh, and hey, try to argue about any sort of XP-above-W10 superiority over these places :w00t:

3 hours ago, dencorso said:

And make no mistake: I see petitioning Firefox to keep supporting XP pointless, but even somewhat disrespectful, because (i) they were the ones who supported it the longest voluntarily and (ii) their code is open, so anyone is welcome to fork it and keep support (as, in fact, @roytam1 and Feodor2 already have done)... 

Yes, but... As i told earlier, I started using Basilisk by Roytam1 on my XP machine. Yet still, it lacks seamless automatic update, and people reported problems with language packs, and as it will be also used by my relatives, the latter one is a muss. And as much as I admire (truly!) Roytam1's work, I'd love to have these two features without reading hundreds pages of comments, and FF 52 ESR had it :rolleyes:

 

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On 11/7/2018 at 1:04 PM, Jody Thornton said:

I was really just wanting to understand when an XP fan can realize that "OK it's really over now for XP, and should be over".

On 11/7/2018 at 1:03 PM, dencorso said:

I have used 98SE on bare iron, as day-to-day main OS (banking included), from 1999 to about 2012. Then, as browsing the internet started becoming really hard, I began migrating so that, by around 2014 I realized I almost didn't use 98SE anymore and my non-SSE2, single-core machines had become too slow... at that point I gave up on both non-SSE2, single-core machines and on 98SE and migrated to i7 based machines running XPSP3 and 7SP1. So, while I'm not one of the die-hardest among us, I'm still die-harder than most, and generally stubborn as a mule. In my view, whenever using an OS or a piece of hardware (like non-SSE2 processors) becomes a true pain, it's time to move on. I really do believe in "if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee"... 

"

It looks like these both got posted at the same time, and I think @dencorso answers @Jody Thornton's question. It's not really a matter of being "over," so much as just noticing you're using the old OS less and less, and the new OS more and more, until one day you realize you're not really using the old OS at all. Many of us don't abruptly "break up" with an OS; it just sort of falls away over time. But as long as it gets used at all, I still appreciate help from forums like this one.

I've noticed the same phenomenon in other areas. A couple of years ago I replaced a Channel Master-brand DVR with their new model. The combination of "UI shock" (having to figure out the new DVR's way to do practically everything) and a few annoying limitations in the new DVR led me to track down another one of the old DVRs on eBay! But eventually, I got used to the new DVR, and the old one gets little use these days. (Now I'm going through those same migration pains again, trying to move to an Android phone from a BlackBerry....)

M$ has much to answer for here; they've made OS upgrades way more of a pain than they should be. Really, it should just be:

  1. Put the new OS DVD in the drive
  2. Boot from the DVD
  3. Wait
  4. Enjoy! Everything still works just like it did, but now you can run all the new programs that wouldn't run on the old version.

But M$ never does that! There are always apps that won't run anymore, folders that got moved around, etc. None of this was necessary to create a more feature-rich OS; a lot of it was just "flash" to try to attract folks' eyes in the hopes they'll be enticed to upgrade to a "hot" new OS.

All of that said, however, I don't support the petition to Mozilla. To me it seems there are two related, but different issues:

  1. Should Firefox still support legacy extensions? Then why bother Mozilla? Just switch to PM or Basilisk. They (especially Basilisk) are the "extended FF 52" the petitioners say they want.
  2. Should Firefox, PM, or Basilisk still support XP/Vista (why does everyone forget Vista's in the same boat as XP where browsers are concerned), instead of both being limited to Win 7 and up? (Then why not just use MyPal or @roytam1's builds? Mozilla and the PM team have enough to do.)

Edit: @Mcinwwl's point about upgrades and language packs is well taken. As I mentioned in the NM thread, not everyone is as technically savvy as the average MSFN reader; some of us have to help out our parents. So MyPal and @roytam1 aren't a complete solution. But I see no reason why someone with a little free time can't fill that gap.

I'm sure that, at some point, either the Web will evolve to the point where PM and Basilisk can't keep up with FF, or Feodor2 and @roytam1 can't make either work on XP anymore. (We've already hit that point with much DRM-protected media.) But that's probably even further off than Win 7 EOL! In the meantime, I'm pretty happy with what XP users have.

Edited by Mathwiz
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5 hours ago, jaclaz said:

As a matter of fact, that particular argument is tougher to win, EXACTLY because in those environments those specialized application are actually NEEDED to do some actual work (as opposed to ordering random crap on Amazon or e-bay, watching youtube videos of lolcats, etc.).

In fact that's exactly why M$ created "Windows XP Mode" for Win 7 Pro users. Even Win 7 broke way too many more XP apps than it should have (zero).

Edited by Mathwiz

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On 11/7/2018 at 7:03 PM, dencorso said:

In my view, whenever using an OS or a piece of hardware (like non-SSE2 processors) becomes a true pain, it's time to move on

I think that is very aptly put.

I am going to hang to in with XP as long as I am able, much like 98SE which I liked, but eventually will have to move to Win7 for practical reasons. Luckily, all my XP progs seem to work on Win7.

Figure this will be in the next year or two max. In the interim since I dual boot, it will give me time to get used to Win7.

Good Luck

Edited by risk_reversal
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18 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

Ah jeez - the reason this came up was because of a petition to extend Firefox support and force Mozilla's hand.  Stop saying I'm trolling.  Only you are acting aggressive now.  There are others here (also long-time XP users who get just what I'm saying.

Oh and by the way, this thread was specifically meant for criticism of XP or at least critical analysis, so why are you here p***ing in my corn flakes now?  Seems your pot calling the kettle black.

If we're allowed a thread called "Windows 10 is Crap" then CERTAINLY one can question the longevity of support for an old OS.

EDIT:  Oh and by the way, go and look at my response to @FrancesBB.  He actually did go and change my mind somewhat.  So stop saying I'm asking a question for no reason at all.

 

18 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

No it's not well said.  XP-x64 Lover.  This thread is ALL ABOUT criticism of Windows XP and whether or not it should be used now.  My posts are actually ON TOPIC and relevant here.  Anyone accusing me of trolling is being a hypocrite.  You're telling all I can do is agree with the rest of you (that's being sheeple).  No one learns anything that way.

Aggressive? How so? Because I called your statements out for what they really are? (Or rather how they come across, whether you mean them that way or not.)

More like you expect US to learn to be sheeple, and remember that Microsoft knows best, and to respect their authoritah!

No one has said you are not allowed to have an opinion. I even said you were welcome to your opinion.:whistle: It seems you are the one who has a problem when no one else agrees with (or is persuaded by) your opinions.

If you want "XP criticism," I can give you some. It's not Windows 9x. Windows has been going downhill since 98SE. But XP is still light years ahead of anything Microsoft has done since.

17 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

But really, I must know why is it OK to poop on Windows 10 (in a Windows 10 Forum), and I hate it too by the way, but even the slightest criticism of XP's continued place in IT use is not acceptable?  There seems to be a disconnect there.

EDIT: moving threads made it seem like I just came back to crap on XP, and that was not the context my statements from yesterday were made.

 

Maybe we should move all of the "criticism" of this or that OS threads to the General Discussion section so that way no one can make the claim that we are somehow being unfair to poor Microsoft. Or maybe they need a "trigger warning..." :angel

I think this particular back-and-forth has run its course. Jody, you say you aren't trolling. Fine. But you need to realize that it frequently comes across that way whether you intend it or not.

It's kind of like poking a hornets nest just to see what happens. Let's go to a product-specific forum, populated by avid users of said product, who clearly have no interest in changing their chosen product, and ask them when they think it's going to be OK for them to give up using said product because other people think they should. What kind of answers do you think you're going to get? Is there water in the ocean? Come on, man.

And, aside from this, you never truly remain a "neutral commentator." You always manage to throw in some "weasel" comment such as "the future, one that XP cannot be part of because of technical limitations". While this statement may not be incorrect, it is also not an unbiased assessment. If XP has "technical limitations," this is not inherently the fault of the OS, it is the fault of Microsoft and whomever else no longer writing code for it. There is no "technical" reason why code (programs, drivers, whatever) can no longer be written for XP. Microsoft chooses in this case (and I'm not saying they don't have the right, but that's not the point) to artificially limit the capabilities of XP. This choice on their part makes the limitation, not the OS.

16 hours ago, dencorso said:

And make no mistake: I see petitioning Firefox to keep supporting XP pointless... 

...New Moon, Basilisk and MyPal are more than enough to keep going...

Agreed that the petition is pointless, because we have no leverage sufficient enough to influence a corporation to make this choice or that. If Firefox were a paid product there might be some hope, but none in this case.
 

The problem with New Moon, Basilisk, and MyPal is that they are all one-man operations, and I know from my own experience that eventually real life will come along and shut down your operation sooner or later, no matter how dedicated you are or how much you want to keep something going.

Aside from this first point, all three are subsequently dependent on the whims of Moonchild Porductions, which has no love for anything "legacy." I cannot fathom how Moonchild & company have such a disconnect wherein they want to preserve something "legacy" as in the classic UI of a browser, but they don't have any respect for trying to preserve a "classic" operating system, especially when the code involved was already written to support the "classic" OS to begin with. When the code is already written for that particular OS, it's nothing but a bald-faced lie and pure laziness to claim they can't "support" it (and who even CARES if they support it, so long as they don't break it intentionally). I've been very amazed so far that they have not made some intentional change to the code to make roytam1's job more difficult.

2 hours ago, risk_reversal said:

...but eventually will have to move to Win7 for practical reasons. Luckily, all my XP progs seem to work on Win7...

Personally I've drawn a line after Vista; not that beyond XP is really acceptable, and Vista is almost in the same boat as XP these days; but at least Vista retained the classic UI intact. Beyond Vista I will not go. There's always Linux. I finally found a Linux distribution using the Trinity Desktop Environment as its main DE. Have a look at these Q4OS & XPQ4.

 

On a side note I'm finding this situation hilarious in a way... I can remember the days when the XP users used to harass the 9x users about upgrading and "newer is better" and "NT is better" and all that rubbish. And here I am defending XP. The irony... :lol:

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7 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

 

Aggressive? How so? Because I called your statements out for what they really are? (Or rather how they come across, whether you mean them that way or not.)

More like you expect US to learn to be sheeple, and remember that Microsoft knows best, and to respect their authoritah!

No one has said you are not allowed to have an opinion. I even said you were welcome to your opinion.:whistle: It seems you are the one who has a problem when no one else agrees with (or is persuaded by) your opinions.

If you want "XP criticism," I can give you some. It's not Windows 9x. Windows has been going downhill since 98SE. But XP is still light years ahead of anything Microsoft has done since.

Maybe we should move all of the "criticism" of this or that OS threads to the General Discussion section so that way no one can make the claim that we are somehow being unfair to poor Microsoft. Or maybe they need a "trigger warning..." :angel

I think this particular back-and-forth has run its course. Jody, you say you aren't trolling. Fine. But you need to realize that it frequently comes across that way whether you intend it or not.

It's kind of like poking a hornets nest just to see what happens. Let's go to a product-specific forum, populated by avid users of said product, who clearly have no interest in changing their chosen product, and ask them when they think it's going to be OK for them to give up using said product because other people think they should. What kind of answers do you think you're going to get? Is there water in the ocean? Come on, man.

And, aside from this, you never truly remain a "neutral commentator." You always manage to throw in some "weasel" comment such as "the future, one that XP cannot be part of because of technical limitations". While this statement may not be incorrect, it is also not an unbiased assessment. If XP has "technical limitations," this is not inherently the fault of the OS, it is the fault of Microsoft and whomever else no longer writing code for it. There is no "technical" reason why code (programs, drivers, whatever) can no longer be written for XP. Microsoft chooses in this case (and I'm not saying they don't have the right, but that's not the point) to artificially limit the capabilities of XP. This choice on their part makes the limitation, not the OS.

Agreed that the petition is pointless, because we have no leverage sufficient enough to influence a corporation to make this choice or that. If Firefox were a paid product there might be some hope, but none in this case.
 

The problem with New Moon, Basilisk, and MyPal is that they are all one-man operations, and I know from my own experience that eventually real life will come along and shut down your operation sooner or later, no matter how dedicated you are or how much you want to keep something going.

Aside from this first point, all three are subsequently dependent on the whims of Moonchild Porductions, which has no love for anything "legacy." I cannot fathom how Moonchild & company have such a disconnect wherein they want to preserve something "legacy" as in the classic UI of a browser, but they don't have any respect for trying to preserve a "classic" operating system, especially when the code involved was already written to support the "classic" OS to begin with. When the code is already written for that particular OS, it's nothing but a bald-faced lie and pure laziness to claim they can't "support" it (and who even CARES if they support it, so long as they don't break it intentionally). I've been very amazed so far that they have not made some intentional change to the code to make roytam1's job more difficult.

Personally I've drawn a line after Vista; not that beyond XP is really acceptable, and Vista is almost in the same boat as XP these days; but at least Vista retained the classic UI intact. Beyond Vista I will not go. There's always Linux. I finally found a Linux distribution using the Trinity Desktop Environment as its main DE. Have a look at these Q4OS & XPQ4.

 

On a side note I'm finding this situation hilarious in a way... I can remember the days when the XP users used to harass the 9x users about upgrading and "newer is better" and "NT is better" and all that rubbish. And here I am defending XP. The irony... :lol:

All I can say is you're STUBBORN STUBBORN STUBBORN @LoneCrusader.  You prove that by refusing to move beyond Vista (when in fact Windows 7 and Vista are kissing cousins)

You also prove that you're stubborn and unwilling to bend by continuing to use phrases like "I weasel statements" or "I'm not neutral" to describe me, and you continue to say I'm a troll.  I only asked a question when this content was still in the Firefox petition thread (by the way you only answered with your tripe after the content was moved here so you must think I just decided to revisit this thread).  My initial question from the Firefox thread  is still valid.  How long can you expect Mozilla to have their hand forced by users of an older OS?  It wasn't even a question asked squarely aimed at XP.  It was an honest, fair and direct question to ask.

By the way, you said I came here to poke at a hornets nest, did you?  So I would like you to answer me then, why is this thread (which is in a Windows 10 Forum) acceptable more than my comments are?

And no @dencorso, I want @LoneCrusader to answer this one - I appreciate your stepping in and supporting me (I REALLY DO)  :).  But Lone Crusader has decided that it's his way or the highway thorough his tone and attitude, and use of words like "troll" and "weasel" to describe me.  So he can answer that.   Yes I know, it's actually amazing that I would EVEN want to hear more from @LoneCrusader, but since the stomach ache has already set in, I can stand a bit more. (and yes, I earned the right to be insulting to you @LoneCrusader when you described me with the words I've mentioned - fair is fair).

Whenever I read something on a subject (XP, Firefox, clouds in the shy....), there should be fair, balanced analysis and commentary; not just the good.  If there are negative points or dislike, that should get mentioned too.

And I keep bringing this up, @FranceBB's good idea of a long-term support monetization would NEVER have come up if I didn't .... now what did you say I did?.... oh yes, "poked the hornets nest".  Again, my question resulted in fair and balanced conversation.  But you won't have that, will you @LoneCrusader?

I like MSFN because we're not a "Fan Boy" environment.  Let's keep it that way.  By the way, whomever it was that posted comparing the lifespan of an OS to a truck or a cat, I have a fourteen year-old feline and I would never lower her value by comparing it to that of an operating system.  Sheesh. :(

 

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7 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

Personally I've drawn a line after Vista; not that beyond XP is really acceptable, and Vista is almost in the same boat as XP these days; but at least Vista retained the classic UI intact. Beyond Vista I will not go. There's always Linux. I finally found a Linux distribution using the Trinity Desktop Environment as its main DE. Have a look at these Q4OS & XPQ4. 

Well, I never installed Vista, used it a couple of times and much like Windows ME, I skipped it due in most part by users reviews (perhaps they were wrong).

However, having used Win7 for only a few months I feel that it is a worthwhile OS and in many respects, superficially of course since I am not that knowledgeable, I am warming to it. Win7 required an inordinate amount of time having to shut off Services, Tasks and many other MS progs that were unnecessary and reporting back to MS and that was a real paint to do.

Having tried Win8 &10, I feel that my next move will most probably be Linux, I have played around a lot with Ubuntu (have it on a laptop) but everything is so very different. I will have a look at Q4OS and XPQ4 and test out a live cd (if they have one which I am sure they must).

Good Luck

Cheers

 

 

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@LoneCrusader. Don't mean to go off topic but just had a quick look at Q4OS and XPQ4 and have a quick question.

Am I understanding this correctly. Q4OS is the Debian based Linux distribution and needs to be installed so that the XPQ4 addon can be installed to give it a Win XP/7/8/10 shell/desktop/feel. Is that correct?

Good Luck

Cheers

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Yes that's correct @rick_reversal.  I've ran two builds of it, and it's a nice OS.

 

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