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bookie32

Official - Windows 10 Worst Crap Ever!

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I appreciate the grounding, jaclaz, but I'm aware that I bought a high-end system for its day.  Kosamja's result goes to show my system, while decent for its day, now isn't really "cutting edge" any more, even with a healthy set of resources.

Looking into the Windows startup a bit more closely, and breaking things down starting with the time of virtual power-on:

Win 10:

0:00 - Virtual power-on
0:03 - Virtual BIOS window shows
0:04 - 5 Second "Choose an Operating System to Start" countdown because of custom boot option shows
0:09 - Windows logo shows with spinner
0:22 - Screen mode shifts to full-size
0:28 - Windows lock screen shows
0:33 - Password accepted, "Preparing Windows" shows
0:42 - Desktop shows

The above would imply that the parts under Windows' control are really between 0:10 and 0:27, then again between 0:33 and 0:42, with possibly that some things starting up in the background between 0:27 and 0:33 while I was entering the password.

Note that SuperFetch is Disabled on this system.

Time for a reboot, from desktop to lock screen:

0:00 - Choose Restart, screen shows Shutting Down
0:06 - Shutdown complete, screen goes black, enters virtual power-up sequence
0:09 - Virtual BIOS window shows
0:10 - 5 Second "Choose an Operating System to Start" countdown because of custom boot option shows
0:14 - Windows logo shows with spinner
0:23 - Screen mode shifts to full-size
0:28 - Windows lock screen shows
0:30 - Password accepted, "Preparing Windows" shows
0:35 - Logged-in, desktop shows

Several steps during a startup after a reboot are a little shorter than when doing an initial power-up even though I've disabled the Fast Boot option entirely.  I find that interesting.

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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If I may, comparing "real" machines with "virtual" ones is not really-really appropriate anyway.

Maybe a virtual machine using direct physicaldrive access (as opposed to a - I believe that is what you use - a vhd/vdi/vmdk file) may give some more comparable results, but when using a virtual device such an image file it is likely that any kind of filesystem or OS or Virtual Machine cache may have a role in faster reboot times.

jaclaz
 

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Sure, good point, but my hardware stable is necessarily limited.  I don't think accessing a virtual hard drive in a .vmdk file is going to speed things up over a hardware system.

And it probably IS informative to compare two different VMs running from different .vmdks on the same physical hardware.

-Noel


 

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2 minutes ago, NoelC said:

I don't think accessing a virtual hard drive in a .vmdk file is going to speed things up over a hardware system.

 

And I didn't say exactly that, I meant that maybe a reboot in a VM may not be as "complete" as it is on real hardware and anyway (when compared to a direct access to a physical drive) there are added "layers" of *whatever* that may make a "cold start" very different from a "reboot".

Of course comparing different OS's on a "same" VM makes a lot of sense, and of course comparing different VM's (to see which is faster) is nice, it is the comparing of Virtual vs Real that I see as  not fully appropriate because a lot of things may be different in the way things work.

jaclaz
 

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At one point I did actually put Win 10 on a hardware system (my PowerEdge T20 small business server, which is now running Win 7 x64 Ultimate).

I was able to do benchmarks at the time, though it was a few years ago.  As I have discovered above, bootup times were not significantly different from Win 7 on the same hardware.  I even did some comparative testing with SSD vs. hard drive at the time (around the time of the first Win 10 release, actually), and it was a fair bit slower to boot up from a hard drive.  SSD definitely accelerates any computing experience.

I haven't been motivated to get back to that system and try the latest Win 10 on it, simply because it functions perfectly month after month for its purpose using Win 7.  I think by temporarily "upgrading" to Win 10 I've locked in a license - presuming such upgrades don't expire - for it for the future if somehow Win 7 becomes unusable.

-Noel

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SSD:  The Windows 7 Pro Dell Latitude E5410 laptop:  40 seconds from push power on button to usable desktop.  This is the system that the Win 10 computers are compared against.  This computer when it had an HDD took over a minute to make the same boot up.  I started replacing HDDs with SSDs about 5 years ago, both PATA and SATA, both Apple and PC.  The results have always been the same, SDD computers have been 5 to 10 times faster than HDD computers.  Slow is Crap when using computers!

As an aside, I've seen students in a computer classroom spending 5 to 10 minutes waiting for their HDD PCs to boot up to a usable device.  That's a lot of wasted learning time in class.

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11 hours ago, BudwS said:

SSD:  The Windows 7 Pro Dell Latitude E5410 laptop:  40 seconds from push power on button to usable desktop.

40 seconds on SSD? I wonder how much boot would be faster if WarpDisk is used on SSD...

Edited by kosamja

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16 hours ago, BudwS said:

As an aside, I've seen students in a computer classroom spending 5 to 10 minutes waiting for their HDD PCs to boot up to a usable device.  That's a lot of wasted learning time in class.

Well, allow me to disagree, students in a computer class should have been taught how to speed up their booting, I see it more as a failure of the course than wasted learning time, if the teachers/instructors didn't manage to teach (in the remaining minutes after the looooong time to boot) how to optimize the system for faster booting (and/or if the students didn't decide to study on their own how to solve this evident anomaly) there is a problem.

jaclaz 
 

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1 hour ago, jaclaz said:

how to optimize the system for faster booting

Many schools has very old computers and maybe bad networking, sooo optimize the OS for faster booting is't the thing that comes too ones maid, I can imaged :unsure: 

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1 hour ago, mikedigitize said:

Many schools has very old computers and maybe bad networking, sooo optimize the OS for faster booting is't the thing that comes too ones maid, I can imaged :unsure:

We are not talking of "generic schools", we are taking of "computer classes", where the people that tomorrow (or the day after tomorrow) will be likely qualified to maintain your personal system (or your bank system, or the system that runs traffic lights in your city, whatever) learn the base knowledge on how to do that.

I was hoping that they were better educated by their teachers.

I was not expecting (I know how schools have often older systems) times expressed in seconds, but 5-10 minutes, come on :).

jaclaz


 

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In all my career I met/hired/worked with few "computer graduates" who knew much of anything practical about computers.  We always had to train them to do the real software work the communications industry required.  And only some of them actually were trainable; even fewer could do things like real-time programming. 

At various times I set up and maintained the computer systems and software development environments used by departments of software engineers - because IT people were generally even worse than the "computer graduates" at making things work.  Almost none of the Engineers knew how to (or cared to) run their Windows systems as a tight ship.

Yes, I know these are overgeneralizations, but they're no doubt why Microsoft is dumbing things down and offering "Windows as a Service".

I fear there's a knowledge/wisdom base that's going to die with us old-timers who cut our teeth programming logic gates and 8 bit processors in machine code that ran at tens of thousands of instructions per second, and who are actually still interested in how things work under the covers.

I challenge all the young folks here to do better.  The world is going to stop working (which means no more Facebook or microwave ovens or XBox) if you don't.

-Noel

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15 minutes ago, NoelC said:

I fear there's a knowledge/wisdom base that's going to die with us old-timers who cut our teeth programming logic gates and 8 bit processors in machine code that ran at tens of thousands of instructions per second, and who are actually still interested in how things work under the covers.

Are you trying to join the old grumpy people club?

I can put a good word for you, if you are interested ;).

8 bit processors? LUXURY! Why in my day ....

https://tinyapps.org/blog/misc/200702250700_why_in_my_day.html

... and we LIKED it!

jaclaz
 

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7 hours ago, jaclaz said:

Well, allow me to disagree, students in a computer class should have been taught how to speed up their booting, I see it more as a failure of the course than wasted learning time, if the teachers/instructors didn't manage to teach (in the remaining minutes after the looooong time to boot) how to optimize the system for faster booting (and/or if the students didn't decide to study on their own how to solve this evident anomaly) there is a problem.

jaclaz 
 

I agree with your opinion.  However, in the real world, Tucson, Arizona, schools and learning have been allotted a very low priority.  Also, the directive of the Technology Department at the school stated that no teachers, students and some computer technicians were to change any settings on the computer classroom equipment, hardware or software.  Perhaps Arizona education attitudes are what has put Arizona close to the bottom on the list of states in the US.  Perhaps a donation from another country would help us out?  On the bright side, at least some of the students have iPhones and iPads that they use at home instead of the old PCs at school.  Remember, we're talking Arizona with temperatures high enough to hurt students brains (115-120 degrees) and maybe the politicians brains as well.  I remember the one room school house that I attended that had no computers at all but that was before computers.  We were not concerned about "boot times" at all.  Wow, we've come a long way in 65 years.  Now I understand that slow computers are crap but the students and teachers still don't get to speed up there slow computers.  Even if I gave the school an SSD they would refuse to install it because of the "policy."  Yes, that's crap but this is the crap forum.

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13 hours ago, kosamja said:

40 seconds on SSD? I wonder how much boot would be faster if WarpDisk is used on SSD...

Yes, I'm wondering the same thing.  WarpDisk is now bookmarked on that computer.  Thanks, the future is now.

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3 hours ago, BudwS said:

Yes, I'm wondering the same thing.  WarpDisk is now bookmarked on that computer.  Thanks, the future is now.

I look forward to hearing the results of that.

An anecdote:  A while back I learned of a RAM caching program - I forget the name, it was a cutesy one, something like FancyCache - that would add a layer of RAM write-back caching between the hardware and the software, to the point where huge amounts of I/Os could be completed with the disk subsystem getting way behind.  Its claim to fame is that it speeds up I/O benchmarks tremendously.

The reality is that there already is RAM caching and a lot of optimization in the system.  When I tested this amazing caching package with my SSD setup, it didn't turn out to speed up actual I/O intensive applications at all.  But it DID cause some system instability.

-Noel

Edited by NoelC

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