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Windows 10 - Deeper Impressions


xper

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N.B.: My replies/comments are in bold, interspersed with NoelC's quoted post:
 

DHJohns, I'll bet your posts cause some gnashing of teeth amongst readers here.

I am sure they do! LOL
 
To me it seems a bit like eating candy even with the spectre of tooth decay, yet still saying you love candy.  It's impossible to argue that candy does not taste good to you, but other folks may feel they see a bigger picture and may even think you're being irresponsible.

I pick and choose my candy. Most everything on the start menu at install gets removed, and I put on it what I use. I also edit the WinX menu. 

If you could not get Windows 7 or 8.1 to do what you needed and now you somehow find Win 10 works so much better that you consider it "a beautiful mansion", well then it's no surprise you feel the way you do. 
 
But considering that others who know a thing or two find the Win 10 "upgrade" more like a "shack with holes in the roof", some may wonder whether you did not try hard enough to find all the good in the older system, and that a fresh installation along with all the effort you've put into Win 10 might have yielded the same result or something even better.

My thoughts are "why use something older, when I like the new better. I used Windows 7, but always hated the start menu. I found it very difficult to customize, and even harder to use.
 
Maybe you just have radically different needs for your computing experience.  Maybe you now have a much better computer than when you tried those older systems.  You've said some things in the past (e.g., about Win 7 booting slowly) that aren't seen by others.

I know personally (face-to-face) computer enthusiasts who run W7, W8, and W10, and they all say nothing beats the speed of W10. These people usually have much better computers than I.
 
What I find most interesting is that you appear to be getting everything you want, and having a quite positive experience, from Windows 10 - while others are expressing very much the opposite.  Opposing views always intrigue me, especially in light of my own findings.
 
For me, on a scale of Hell No to Hell Yes, I've landed just short of the middle.  I've got my Win 10 build 10586 setup looking good again, trimmed per my liking, and it's stable.  I can do all my desktop work with it, and I've even muzzled it completely from a privacy perspective.
 
But when the dust settles, for me there are just two obvious facts:

  • As I have no use for "Toy Apps" (windowed or otherwise) and will not choose to enable UAC, Win 10 doesn't do anything more for me than 8.1.  Not one thing, literally.  My greatest disappointment is that Microsoft has abandoned working on everything but Metro/Modern/Universal for 5 years now.
  • Win 10 comes with some pretty negative baggage - most importantly a 4 month forced in-place upgrade cycle.  I put a solid week into whipping 10586 back into shape, and I don't want to have to go through that every 4 months on a system I have to rely on.  To top it off it just no longer does some things, like play media, as well as its predecessors.  As a company Microsoft isn't going in a good direction.
For me, with my particular needs, even after having put all the effort into making it work as well as possible and with all the facts known, Win 10 balances to a net loss.  And so for me Win 10 stays on a test VM and I remain using an older system for my production work that's stable and meets my needs better.
 
DHJohns, perhaps you still find pleasure in reworking the OS after each in-place upgrade.  I admit, figuring out what works and how to overcome limitations is interesting as well.  But it's just getting to be excessive, for me, with my needs and expectations.

I have a cmd file which I run. It takes care of ALL of my tweaks in just a minute. This includes registry edits, WMP change to black, theme loading, file patching, all ownership of any related registry, and file issues. Removes Defender, creates restore point, removes homegroup, cleans Explorer, on and on. I also enjoy the upgrade cycle. It is fun!
 
After reflection, hate / like / love of WIndows 10 pretty clearly boils down to what each individual needs and wants.  It's obviously better for some than others, and there's nothing that says the situation can't change, though you have to understand that those of us looking for Real Innovation out of Microsoft can only take disappointment for so long.
 
-Noel

 

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The change I am talking of is going to sleep in a shack, and waking up in a beautiful mansion. This is analogous to going to sleep with Windows 7 on my computer, and waking up with 10!

As I see it, a better analogy would be you go to sleep on your own bed and wake up in it... then as you go outside, you notice it's not your neighborhood at all, anymore, and someone passes by you and says, quite merrily "good morning, Number 6!"...

 

Of course, dhjohns, you're much welcome to present your perception of it, and I'm, in fact, glad to see, at least for you, 10 is not bad at all. :yes:

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The change I am talking of is going to sleep in a shack, and waking up in a beautiful mansion. This is analogous to going to sleep with Windows 7 on my computer, and waking up with 10!

As I see it, a better analogy would be you go to sleep on your own bed and wake up in it... then as you go outside, you notice it's not your neighborhood at all, anymore, and someone passes by you and says, quite merrily "good morning, Number 6!"...

 

Of course, dhjohns, you're much welcome to present your perception of it, and I'm, in fact, glad to see, at least for you, 10 is not bad at all. :yes:

huh? That is not analogy; that is delusion! LOL Edited by dhjohns
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I know personally (face-to-face) computer enthusiasts who run W7, W8, and W10, and they all say nothing beats the speed of W10. These people usually have much better computers than I.

 

Uh oh, a "my friends are better than your knowledge" post.  You know I can't let that go.

 

Windows 8.1 - e.g., file system access - is a good bit slower than Windows 7, so try to resist the urge to lump them together.  It has crossed my mind that Microsoft may have reduced the performance of 8.1 so 10 would look better.

 

Also, for certain other operations, such as a few things that happen with games, newer systems might be equally fast or even a little faster.

 

We need not even talk about boot time, because Microsoft introduced "fake booting" with their new hybrid/fast bootup that's just stupid.  If you're using that then you're not accomplishing the same thing as a real boot - not to mention being irresponsible with your system stability.

 

As far a responsiveness in using the OS, consider that folks generally do not do objective performance measurements, but just state their feelings.  I don't give a rat's a** about their feelings.  I care about reality.  Humans absolutely suck at gauging performance subjectively.  Plus I think folks are often optimistic to find some good - some justification - in having upgraded.

 

Let's not forget that most folks, in sharing their feelings, compare a used, loaded-up older Windows installation with a new, fresh installation that's not had all the baggage added - maybe even on a different computer.  How many have installed systems afresh on the very same hardware just for the purposes of testing?

 

Beyond that, most folks don't know enough to have tuned up the performance of their Windows 7 or 8 system to be as good as it could have been, either.  Whether the out-of-box tuning of a Win 10 system is better I can't say.  It probably is.  I have not tested that, because it's irrelevant to me.  What I've tested is the best performance that could be obtained from any given system. 

 

Ask your enthusiast friends some time if they regularly scour the list that Autoruns puts up for them and actually have disabled all the "handy" things their application software has installed but which they don't need.  If they don't they're not qualified to comment on the subject of performance, since they don't even know how to maintain a Windows system.

 

Ask them if they've timed real, equivalent I/O operations on their file systems on new Windows installations on the same hardware.

 

Ask anyone who thinks Win 10 is faster than Win 7 to select all files in the root folder of C:\ and do Properties, timing how long it takes Explorer to enumerate them all.  Ask them to do it twice, to test performance when the disk is involved vs. when the data is all cached in RAM.

 

OVERALL, weighing file system operations heavily as they influence virtually everything to do with operating system responsiveness, and having tuned up each system, *I* found - through objective measurements - Windows 7 fastest, 8.0 is almost as fast, 8.1 a fair bit slower, and Windows 10 may be a little faster than 8.1, but still slower than 7 or 8.0.

 

I crave a conversation above the BS level of "Ford is faster than Chevy", because performance matters and frankly hearing fanboys claim things are better that are actually worse gets under my skin.  I accept that some may like Win 10 better and I applaud your flexibility, but don't try to tell me it's faster, because it ain't, and that's measurable.

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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Accolades notwithstanding :), I just went off to do some more testing, this time with a fully updated Win 7 system vs. a Win 8.1 system, and a Win 10 build 10586 system - all with identical provisioning (SSD, 8 GB RAM, 8 cores), because I like to back up my claims with solid info, based on current releases.

 

I set out to measure networking and disk performance, as well as raw data crunching power, so I retrieved the same rather large (~20 GB) software development baseline on both Win 7 and 10 systems from a local, subversion server with no other user activity.

 

Here's an overview of all the times I just measured in this "practical usage" software development test.  Times in Minutes:Seconds.fraction:

 

Win 7:

 

12:50.0                                 Retrieve 52,814 trunk files / folders from SVN
10.77, 2.50, 0.94, 0.90         Batch build projects in GLEW solution
2.97, 2.66, 2.27, 2.27           Batch build projects in LittleCMS solution
1:47.54, 1:39.60, 1:40.93     Batch build projects within the main application
50.0                                      Delete 19.5 gigabytes of files / folders

 

Win 8.1: 

 

13:45.0                                 Retrieve 52,814 trunk files / folders from SVN

11.60, 2.73, 1.01, 1.01         Batch build projects in GLEW solution
3.64, 2.43, 2.14, 2.12            Batch build projects in LittleCMS solution
1:47.56, 1:36.70, 1:38.21      Batch rebuild StarFilter Pro 4
30.0                                       Delete 19.5 gigabytes of files / folders
 

Win 10 build 10586:

 

15:31.0                                 Retrieve 52,814 trunk files / folders from SVN
10.79, 2.71, 1.04, 0.98         Batch build projects in GLEW solution
3.29, 2.54, 2.28, 2.23           Batch build projects in LittleCMS solution
2:30.78, 1:34.65, 1:35.34     Batch build projects within the main application

47.0                                      Delete 19.5 gigabytes of files / folders
 

Notably Windows 10 DID slightly outpace Windows 7 in a couple of areas, and in DELETING the whole file/folder structure in the end.  BUT...  Windows 7 did the whole job, soup to nuts, in about 3 minutes less time overall.

 

Honestly, I believe based on what I'm seeing above, that this represents a performance improvement in Win 10 build 10586 over what I have measured before in 10240.

 

Reflecting on the above test, and in all fairness and openness, there's a factor out of my control that could contribute to small variances in the individual product build times:  There are code signing steps, which require confirmation from an online time server.  Based on what I saw going by the differences would have been only fractions of a second - I didn't notice the process stall, BUT...  One of the projects in the main application DID take a LOT longer for Windows 10 than 7.

 

This is actually encouraging for Windows 10's disk I/O performance, because it implies Microsoft may have optimized the file system some in 10586, though it implies that at least some parts of Windows networking are still slower in Windows 10.

 

I will definitely do more testing.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edit:  More testing.  Up above I mentioned:

 

 

Ask anyone who thinks Win 10 is faster than Win 7 to select all files in the root folder of C:\ and do Properties, timing how long it takes Explorer to enumerate them all.  Ask them to do it twice, to test performance when the disk is involved vs. when the data is all cached in RAM.

 

Same identically provisioned systems as above, freshly booted and allowed to settle for a few minutes, then Explorer instructed to count up all files on the SSD.

 

Windows 7:  243,214 files in 67,780 folders

 

17.6 seconds First time (13,819 files per second straight off the SSD)

4.4 seconds Second time (55,276 files per second cached)

 

Windows 8.1:  263,458 files in 44,584 folders

 

41.2 seconds First time (6,395 files per second straight off the SSD)

19.6 seconds second time (13,442 files per second cached)

 

Windows 10:  214,567 files in 44,784 folders

 

47.4 seconds First time (4,527 files per second straight off the SSD)

28.0 seconds Second time (7,663 files per second cached)

 

 

Since the amount of time needed to count up files in a Properties dialog isn't all that important, and I don't want to hinge on just a single Explorer deficiency, I decided to do a different operation that traverses the file system.  I searched the entire file system for a wildcard file path () from the root using:  DIR  C:\*srgb*.*  /S  /B

 

Windows 7:  243,214 files in 67,780 folders

 

25 seconds first time (9,700 files per second straight off the SSD)

8 seconds second time (30,000 files per second cached)

 

Windows 8.1:  263,458 files in 44,584 folders

 

16 seconds First time (16,000 files per second straight off the SSD)

5 seconds second time (50,000 files per second cached)

 

Windows 10:  214,567 files in 44,784 folders

 

26 seconds First time (8,300 files per second straight off the SSD)

10 seconds Second time (21,000 files per second cached)

 

 

File system operations are at the core of everything, and they're clearly slower on Windows 10.  The faster they go, the faster the system seems to respond.  And I don't know about you, but I use Explorer a lot.  Hence my skepticism at claims that Windows 10 "is faster".

 

It strikes me that one reason so many people haven't flocked to Windows 10 yet is that not everyone blindly believes the hype that it's faster.

 

I AM intrigued that Win 10 build 10586 seems to be the fastest Win 10 yet.  Perhaps all my complaints to Microsoft that they're making false claims about performance haven't fallen on deaf ears after all.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edit 2:  Some network performance testing

 

I have a tool called filecrc I wrote a long while back that just enumerates files and folders and "adds up" all the bytes using a CRC-32 algorithm.  Since the computing isn't very complex, this is good for measuring raw I/O speed.

 

If I use it to read nearly a gigabyte of data from a machine across the LAN (running Win 7), I'm thinking it'll give us an idea of how efficient Windows Networking is.  Though many folks may not use a LAN, this will be important to folks who do.  Since I saw a surprising reversal of performance figures (and yes, I repeated the test several times with the same results) I decided to test on Windows 8.1 as well.

 

Win 7:  23 seconds

 

ScreenGrab_W7_11_24_2015_184555.png

 

 

Win 8.1:  14 seconds

 

ScreenGrab_W8_11_24_2015_185955.png

 

 

Win 10:  16 seconds

 

ScreenGrab_W10_11_24_2015_185452.png

 

 

Surprisingly, Windows 10 outpaced Windows 7 by a good bit here, but doesn't quite match Win 8.1.

 

Since the discussion is about Win 10 vs. predecessors (plural), I'll go back and repeated the above tests for Windows 8.1 as well and fill in the above parts of this post with more results.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edit 3:  Filled in file system enumeration numbers for Win 8.1 above.

 

Saw that the DIR command in Win 8.1 outpaces both Win 7 and 10, and 10 is slowest.

 

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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Noel, what you just put up there is a model of what a Windows 10 analysis post should be. Thank you -- and congratulations!! :thumbup  :thumbup

 

This is the sort of fact-filled reporting that could get you banned on the Windows Insiders forum. ;)

 

I look forward to seeing the results of your ongoing tests.

 

--JorgeA

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The bad news is making its way around the tech press:

 

Windows 10 uninstalling user programs without permission

 

It’s one thing for Microsoft to force updates on Windows 10 users, but another to choose what programs are and aren’t allowed on the host system.

 

[...]

 

[update] I reached out to Microsoft for an official statement and... there isn't one. Microsoft has declined to comment on this story, which means it isn't a bug, and Windows 10 can and will remove third-party programs from your PC or tablet if it decides to, and without asking you first. Ouch.

 

Hmm, under the "beautiful mansion" analogy of Windows 10, I suppose this means that when the contractor renovates your home (sends out a new build), he assigns himself the right to remove your perfectly working furniture and appliances at his own discretion.

 

--JorgeA

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Microsoft should be really honest and not do to their customers what they would not wish for themselves.

 

A new OS should always mean a better service, instead of the source of new unwanted surprises needing a lot of updates the day after. Users fear this, and even when the "upgrade" is free and almost forced for Windows 7 SP1 and Windows 8 computers the rate of adoption for Windows 10 until now is considerably low, as seen here:

 

http://gs.statcounter.com/#desktop-os-ww-monthly-201505-201510-bar

 

If they don't change their mind, most probably somebody will offer new and cheaper preinstalled Linux OS Pcs for corporate and home users to replace the existing Microsoft structures.

Edited by cannie
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The most interesting part of that is that almost no one is now questioning the fact that Microsoft is releasing in-place upgrades as Windows Updates - which is the REAL reason installed things are "becoming incompatible".  Those "incompatible" things exist, of course, because Microsoft isn't providing what people want, but that's apparently water long under the bridge.

 

It's the redefinition of "normal" that's the big story here.

 

-Noel

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Comparative Passmark PerformanceTest 2D Graphics Mark results follow.  Make sure to look at the numbers as the bar graphs can be misleading (they re-scale):

Win 7

 

Windows Classic Theme (No Aero Glass)
ScreenGrab_W7_11_25_2015_112652.png

With Aero Glass

ScreenGrab_W7_11_25_2015_113147.png

 

Win 8

Without Aero Glass for Win 8+ add-on
ScreenGrab_W81_11_25_2015_114038.png

With Aero Glass for Win 8+ add-on
ScreenGrab_W81_11_25_2015_114425.png


Win 10

Without Aero Glass for Win 8+ add-on
ScreenGrab_W10_11_25_2015_130849.png

With Aero Glass for Win 8+ add-on
ScreenGrab_W10_11_25_2015_131231.png

 

  • Win 7 with Aero Glass beats the pants off all the others.
  • Win 10 is not faster at doing desktop stuff.
  • Adding Aero Glass for Win 8+ seems to add a little performance.

-Noel

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Another excellent set of emprical data, Noel.

 

Those of us who are still on the Insiders Forum can link to these charts the next time a Win10 fanboi claims that Aero Glass was removed to improve performance. :rolleyes:

 

Maybe for the sake of completeness you can give the specs of the machine(s) that these tests were run on.

 

--JorgeA

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Microsoft should be really honest and not do to their customers what they would not wish for themselves.

 

A new OS should always mean a better service, instead of the source of new unwanted surprises needing a lot of updates the day after. Users fear this, and even when the "upgrade" is free and almost forced for Windows 7 SP1 and Windows 8 computers the rate of adoption for Windows 10 until now is considerably low, as seen here:

 

http://gs.statcounter.com/#desktop-os-ww-monthly-201505-201510-bar

 

If they don't change their mind, most probably somebody will offer new and cheaper preinstalled Linux OS Pcs for corporate and home users to replace the existing Microsoft structures.

 

I know I would seriously consider buying a PC with Linux preinstalled. Either that or one with no OS.

 

For the vendor, the key will be to offer a Linux installation that's as ready as can be to play nice with Windows documents and with Windows PCs on the same network.

 

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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