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11ryanc

Can Windows XP Pro x86 *Safely* TRIM an SSD?

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9 hours ago, bluebolt said:

@TrevMUN

Assuming you're using NTFS file system, your only concern with Windows XP x86 or x64 is creating an aligned partition.  Once that is done, the subsequent formatting and OS install can be handled by XP.  Probably lots of tools can do this, here's one way to go about it, off the top of my head...

Use diskpart in Vista repair disk or Windows 7 to create the aligned partition (the offset).  Hook up your SSD to the Windows 7 computer, open command prompt and enter "diskpart.exe" without the quotes.  Enter "List disks" and identify your SSD.  If it is, for instance, disk 1, enter "Select disk 1".  Then enter "list partitions" and it will list the existing partitions on that SSD (or say that there are none, if the SSD is new or blank).  If it lists a partition, enter "delete partition" and it will acknowledge the deletion.  Then, for example, enter "create partition primary align=1024 size=90000" to create a 90GB partition.  Diskpart should acknowlege the creation of your partition, and you're done.  You're ready to install XP on that partition, including formatting.

(The reason for using diskpart with Windows 7 is that Windows 7 OS Disk Management will include an extra header partition peculiar to Windows 7, and botch an XP installation).

I use a little tool called AlignScript/SSDalign after the fact, to verify that the partition is properly aligned.

Awesome! This has been a big help, man. Thanks. Do you recommend partitioning 90 GB for a 120 GB SSD, if I do not plan to have any other partitions on the drive? I saw on the first page that @TELVM recommended partitioning 100 GB on a 128 GB SSD for overprovisioning.

5 hours ago, jaclaz said:

Look, it is not difficult, it's three things:


Well, as @Dave-H said, it might not be difficult to you ... I do appreciate the clarification, however. I don't intend to have more than one partition on the SSD. In fact, I don't think I've ever put more than one partition on any drive I've owned.

Regarding "the partition needs to be aligned to a multiple of the cluster and possibly to a multiple of the device page, 2048 sectors before is fine," given bluebolt's advice would that mean in diskpart I would need to either need to input

create partition primary align=1024 size=90000

Or

create partition primary align=2048 size=90000

And either would work? What would be the advantage of one or the other?

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5 hours ago, jaclaz said:

Now this is "news".

There is NO "extra header partition peculiar to Windows 7" that I know of.

jaclaz

I was referring to the System Reserved Partition, but maybe I misremember.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/technet-magazine/gg441289(v=msdn.10)

https://www.howtogeek.com/192772/what-is-the-system-reserved-partition-and-can-you-delete-it/
 

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19 minutes ago, TrevMUN said:

I saw on the first page that @TELVM recommended partitioning 100 GB on a 128 GB SSD for overprovisioning.

That sounds good; I always overprovision, although some people consider it passé.  I read a recent paper put out by Intel regarding their latest SSDs, and it showed they last longer with a 10% overprovision, and even longer at 20%, which I use.  I figure why not, unless yours will be a big OS and you can't spare the space.

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17 hours ago, bluebolt said:

That sounds about right to me, based on my limited experience.

However! I think that only really applies if you're creating partitions from within the Windows 7 installer, as it prefers to put boot-related files into that partition instead of the root of the C drive if it can. Not sure why, but I'm pretty sure that the Disk Management GUI creates normal partitions without that extra System Reserved stuff.

c

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19 hours ago, TrevMUN said:

Regarding "the partition needs to be aligned to a multiple of the cluster and possibly to a multiple of the device page, 2048 sectors before is fine," given bluebolt's advice would that mean in diskpart I would need to either need to input


create partition primary align=1024 size=90000

Or


create partition primary align=2048 size=90000

And either would work? What would be the advantage of one or the other?

No.

There is NO need (if you use Windows 7 or Vista) to specify that, it is the default, that's is most of the point.

Both OS's sport a Registry entry that goes like:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services\vds\Alignment]
 @="Alignment Settings in Bytes" 
"Between4_8GB"=dword:00100000 
"Between8_32GB"=dword:00100000 
"GreaterThan32GB"=dword:00100000 
"LessThan4GB"=dword:00010000

Where 0x00100000 means 1048576 bytes, i.e. 1048576/512=2048 sectors

Of course these values may have been modified, but it is uncommon.

Check this also:

@bluebolt

If you install a Windows 7 on a "clean" disk ((from DVD, using the "normal" setup PE), then a system and a boot partition (which are defined by MS the other way round from the whole rest of the world) are created:

http://www.multibooters.co.uk/system.html

If you partition a disk in a already installed Windows 7 (no matter if through diskpart or Disk Management) this won't happen.

@cc333

Yep. :) The behaviour ONLY happens in the PE and ONLY if running a "plain" setup/install.

jaclaz

 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2019 at 5:21 AM, jaclaz said:

@dave-h

Look - again - it is not difficult.

For NTFS partition needs to be aligned to a multiple of cluster size and possibly to a multiple of page size, and with that the filesystem data will be already aligned.
For FAT32 what counts is the alignment of the data inside the filesystem, that is outside the scope of Parition Wizard and of any partitioning tool.
NO existing tool AFAIK (exception made for RMPREPUSB and - good to know - RFORMAT by R.Loew) will do that alignment, but it is not particularly difficult to format FAT32 "normally" and then modify a few values on the BPB and copy/paste a couple sectors to make it aligned when the volume is empty.

Re-aligning an existing partition is on the other hand "tricky" and unless R.Loew will write a dedicated program for it, it is not possible manually.

jaclaz

On 3/9/2019 at 7:35 AM, Dave-H said:

Thanks @jaclaz.
It may not be difficult for you, but it is for me!
:lol:
I'll leave things be for now, but I would be very interested if @rloewcan write a program that will correct the issue without reformatting.
If he does I will certainly buy it and use it.
:)

 

Done.

Edited by rloew
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@rloew

I had a look at your site, but I couldn't immediately identify the program concerned.
Which one is it?
:dubbio:

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5 hours ago, Dave-H said:

@rloew

I had a look at your site, but I couldn't immediately identify the program concerned.
Which one is it?
:dubbio:

It is not currently on my website, you can contact me directly.

I will list it if I see more interest. It is called ALIGNDRV.

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Posted (edited)

Is the TRIM and overprovisioning also relevant for Flash Drives as it is for SSD ?

For Flash Disk I will boot Live CD_DVD that has or boots to Mini Windows 7 (circa 2015 or greater).

Mini Windows 7 loaded format the Flash Disk with NTFS 4k clusters (default). Use the disk as normal deleting files as normal set not to use the recycle bin. Every now and then boot to same Live CD_DVD with Mini Windows 7 and let it sit there for 15 minutes or so.

Does any Live CD_DVD that has or boots to mini Windows 7 actually have the TRIM feature so able to housekeep the deleted files correctly.

I have also been booting to Knoppix 7.2 (I think this is not warez) to do the same just in case no Live CD_DVD with mini Windows 7 doesn't actually do any TRIM at all. I have been doing this for a few years now for all the Flash Drives I have.

Until today reading this forum didn't know about overprovisioning or the need for it. It does make sense for a XP OS partition XP, a PageFile partition and a partition for overprovisioning. But to have it 10% or 20% seems far to large maybe 1GB I would think would suffice. That said I haven't located or read the Samsung overprovisioning white paper yet.

Edited by exogenesis
I forgot Warez not allowed here I have changed all to Live CD_DVD. I know some retail softwares Live CD_DVD use Windows 7 PE. I'm unable run Windows 10 Live DVD because only SSE CPU. Previous software I mentioned I referred to all versions to 2015.

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2 hours ago, exogenesis said:

Hiren's

That's warez. Maybe not from your POV, but from MSFN's it *is*. No discusson about it is allowed at all.

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@dencorso, not to disagree in any way with you or MSFN's policies regarding warez, but I did want to mention something about Hiren's which I did not know about until just yesterday. The last "official" release of Hiren's BootCD was back in 2012, v15.2, and it has not been "officially" updated since then. It, along with previous releases, did include software which conflicted with MSFN's policies, so that's all I'll say about it. I don't know which version@exogenesis used or where he got it, containing software circa 2015, so I won't say anything about it either. BUT, I discovered when reading a review of various rescue disks that Hiren’s BootCD was revitalized as a Windows PE rescue disc in 2018. It is now Windows 10 PE based, with the official 72 hour usage limit, and is only supposed to contain software that is truly legal, either free or trial ware. I won't provide a link in case you disagree, but a web search for Hirens Boot CD should provide links for it, unfortunately along with those of the older version as well. So the new version might not be the "bad guy" that it used to be. This is based only on what I've read about it, I have not downloaded it, so I might be wrong.

Cheers and Regards

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For those interested, reboot.pro has a section for its discussions and support. Here we remain adamant about it. 'Nuff said!
N.B.:  Any mod (myself included) may decide to sanitized this thread in the near future. I advise those interested to print or otherwise save it.

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@bphlpt

Good :), and do you believe that a Windows 10 PE [1] is actually redistributable? :whistle:

I mean, all these years spent with Bart's PEBuilder and Winbuilder, were them totally wasted? :dubbio:

Now would you tend to trust more Eve Wang (MSFT CSG)[2] or - say - Tripredacus?:

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/Lync/en-US/050e7a61-4ca6-42eb-865d-7eaddff90ddb/is-windows-pe-for-windows-10-redistributable?forum=winserversetup

 

Of course the moment the EULA for the ADK (or a separate one for PE) will have something to the effect of "You are free to re-distribute any of the binaries included" or a REDIST.TXT with a full list of the files, things will change, right now the relevant part is:

https://forum.acronis.com/sites/default/files/comment_attachments/2016/11/397321-134896.pdf

Quote

. Distributable Code. The software contains code that you are permitted to distribute in programs you develop if you comply with the terms below.

i. Right to Use and Distribute. The code and text files listed below are “Distributable Code.”

1. ADK

a. Sample Code. You may modify, copy, and distribute the source and object code form of code marked as “sample.”

2. WDK

a. REDIST.TXT Files. You may copy and distribute the object code form of code listed in REDIST.TXT files plus any of the files listed on the REDIST list located at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=294840.

jaclaz

 

[1] or - for that matters - *any* Microsoft binary not expressely released as redistributable

[2] you will find many similar questions on social.msdn.microsoft.com invariably replied to with non-answers or answers by clueless people (RCSAKIT PHART), I pointed you to one answered by someone we can trust

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23 minutes ago, jaclaz said:

@bphlpt

Good :), and do you believe that a Windows 10 PE [1] is actually redistributable? :whistle:

...

[1] or - for that matters - *any* Microsoft binary not expressely released as redistributable

[2] you will find many similar questions on social.msdn.microsoft.com invariably replied to with non-answers or answers by clueless people (RCSAKIT PHART), I pointed you to one answered by someone we can trust

OK, and since Eve Wang (MSFT CSG), who we can trust, at the link you pointed me to said:

Windows PE (WinPE) for Windows 10 is a small operating system used to install, deploy, and repair specific Windows operating systems.



It is redistributable for non-commercial purpose, and there is article about Windows PE (WinPE):
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufacture/desktop/winpe-intro

Then what exactly does that mean? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, or argue with MSFN's policies, I just want to be totally clear. I do trust Tripredacus, along with dencorso and yourself of course, but...

Cheers and Regards

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What Eve Wang  (MSFT CSG) wrote, is (blatantly) incorrect AND the article she linked to contains NO detail whatsoever about the possibility to redistribute a PE (let alone differentiating between commercial and non-commercial purposes).

In the same thread Tripredacus replied, stating correctly the situation:

Quote

Microsoft had terminated redistribution licensing back in 2011, I believe.

I have not heard of any situation where it had become licensable again.

In the old days, you could acquire a license from Microsoft in order to redistribute WinPE based solutions to customers.

...

in simpler words, a PE has NEVER been redistributable, but it was available for a few years in a "special" redistribution agreement (for a fee) intended to allow selected Commercial software firms to redistribute it as part of their install/recovery/whatever software.

Since several years this special redistribution agreement program is over.

Provided that the MS' EULA is an actually enforceable and legally valid document (which is something I personally doubt, BTW) it is the document that regulates the license of the software, and the EULA explicitly states how ONLY the "samples" in the ADK are redistributable.

But I will make anyway an example of how I personally read the reply by Eve Wang (MSFT CSG)  :

Q: Do elephants fly?
A; Yes, but only on wednesdays, if there is a full moon, and here is a nice poem about elephants:

https://www.poemhunter.com/poems/elephant/page-2/36807454/

jaclaz

 

 

 

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