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11ryanc

Can Windows XP Pro x86 *Safely* TRIM an SSD?

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This guide a little outdated as menstioned before you don't have to TRIM newer SDDs that much.  Like my samsung 850 Pro i rarely trim and its just fine.

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My TRIM Program reads the FAT Table to determine what Clusters are free and TRIMs them. This is independent of the Operating System that writes the data.

Any garbage collection needs to be done by the OS, so you would need to have it running the OS while idling. I have no idea how much garbage collection XP does.

Idling in DOS or the BIOS will have no effect. Do the TRIM after any idling you choose to do.

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Garbage collection on a SSD is NOT "trim".

And (most modern) SSD have internal "garbage collection" routines, largely (please read as "entirely" undocumented) that may (or may not) work when the device is idle (with no activity whatsoever for long extents of time) or using the "small idle times" that happen in everyday use all the time.

The mass storage device (barring - say - a server that is continuously streaming data) are in actual use ony a minimal fraction of the time they are ON.

In practice, and in normal use, there is no need whatsoever to keep the PC on and idle, no matter which OS it is running.

There is a lot of confusion on the matter because the actual devices changed and what may have made sense in - say - 2010 or 2011 doesn't make anymore sense five years later.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/ask-ars-my-ssd-does-garbage-collection-so-i-dont-need-trim-right/

@muzungu

Which specific EXACT make/model SSD are you using?

Knowing that it may be possible to understand whther it has GC integrated.

jaclaz

 

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Thank you. I understand that Trim is not Garbage collection. But they work together, no? Jaclaz, I've already read what is in the link you provided about that.

Few questions, thanks for your patience :

Quote :Any garbage collection needs to be done by the OS, so you would need to have it running the OS while idling. I have no idea how much garbage collection XP does.

??? I thought garbage collection was OS independent!!! I thought it was an internal process of the drive.

My ssd : intel 530 80GB, another I use from time to time is a chinese one, Kingfast F6. I'm using XP pro x86 only on that laptop, with posready 09 updates, with fat32 dual boot with 98. Spent years at work on NTs NTFS, sometimes a real nightmare (accesss, recovering data,etc). Contrary to what is often said, didn't have much problems with ma fat32 partitons since win95.

I'm looking for the best way to associate a ssd with xp fat32, I have to rebuild one of my laptops. I was wondering if ssds, quite old now, like intel X25-E (not M!), made with SLC nand flashes could be the best choice. Very expensive at that time, but available for a better price now. New ssds - I may be wrong - may not be the best choice with xp. 

I'm humbly listening to your comments.

 

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About manual tools like anvil's and torqx2trim : they take a long time on each partition. So they may write zeros only, no? Not trim, I guess. Am I wrong?

And "TRIMCHECK 0.7" may be useless to see if manual trim is working on XP,Vista - I'm right?

 

Thanks

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Assume that "garbage collection" is just some fluffy term that was invented to confuse people. (actually it is a fluffy term invented to confuse people ;)).

The idea is that the controller (not the OS, though it is possible to have continuous garbage collection in the OS, but it is not the case of Windows) should perform garbage collection when it has nothing better to do (i.e. the I/O is null or low).

The TRIM is a pre-requisite of garbage collection, in the sense that what it does is simply that of reducing the amount of data the garbage collection routine in the SSD controllers has to deal with:

http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-news/latest-buzz/garbage-collection-and-trim-in-ssds-explained-an-ssd-primer/2/

There seems to be a difference between "garbage collection" (which runs when the SSD is idle or with very little activity) and "background garbage collection" that runs also when the computer is used "normally"), depending on the controller, but as said most details are either undocumented or mis-documented.

I don't see why older SSD's may be better (or worse) than newer SSD's for using with XP and FAT32, as long as the device is compatible and good quality I would go for the newer ones, the early (older ones) seem to have had some reliability problem, but of course you never know.

If you make a reference to a tool, post also a link to its homepage (or whatever docs it has), I have no idea what anvil's and torqx2trim are, let alone "Trimcheck 0.7".

And now, just to make some fun, let's imagine that in the use you will make on that laptop (which is not a 24/7/365 server) your SSD (if you NEVER Trim it) will last 12 years while (if you regularly and periodically Trim it and check that the Trim was effetive, etc., etc. ) it will last 36 years.

https://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead

I know that 300% is a big, big difference, but is it relevant? :dubbio:

jaclaz

 

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Not all SSD is created equal.. If SSD last 36 years, I maybe dead and gone by then.  That is long time.

Edited by Destro

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Sure, not so relevant.

Link for anvil's storage utilities (benchmark software, but it has a manual trim option) : http://www.ssdaddict.com/apps/AnvilBenchmark_V110_B337.zip

 Link for torqx2trim utility (supposed to work with patriot ssds, but apparently work with all ssds, including mine) : https://fichiers.touslesdrivers.com/33690/torqx2_trim.zip

What you said Jaclaz is in harmony with what I thought. 

Thanks

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"Another last question please" - (Columbo)

If I understood well, a manual trim could last few seconds. It informs the ssd/garbage collection of what should done only. It does not perform the work. GC does.

So, when a program is supposed to manually trim xp, and when it does it, the ssd drive led is on for 5 to 10mn, I guest it's not a real trim ; it is a trim-like process like zero or 1111 filling free space, no?

I read many many things on internet ; it was said that intel's manual trim is based on "file parse", something supported with NTFS, not with fat32.

And by the way the software called SSD-Tweaker pro can manually trim xp with NTFS, not with fat32

O&O defrag can trim fat32, unless it is the system partition (with xp). Strange.

I used solid state doctor 3 to trim my fat32 system, it says it's fine. But no improvement. After doin manual trim with anvil's storage utility (see above : trim-like, lasts 5 to 10mn), everything is better. Don't understand. Trim-like better than true trim?

Thanks.

 

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The TRIM Commands to the SSD return quickly. The SSD stores the list of Sectors internally and erases them in background.

I have a TRIM Program I wrote. It can TRIM FAT32 Partitions. It can also TRIM all Sectors containing all Zeroes.

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Thank you. Not the answer to my questions anyway. I guess I should be happy with what I got already.

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23 minutes ago, muzungu said:

And there is also a free toolbox working for me with xp, and fat32 : Naraeon ssd tools. Didn't work in v.4, but now it works flawlessly! It's a samsung engineer who made it.

link : https://sourceforge.net/projects/naraeon-ssd/

 

Interesting. :)

Didn't know about that, and it does also Secure Erase, which is something that can be usually done with this or that hdparm port, but that is complicated.

Though seemingly, all it does (related to secure erase) is to prepare a small Linux based USB stick:

https://www.naraeon.net/en/naraeon-help-ko-main/erase-pm/

able to run sedutil-cli:

https://github.com/Drive-Trust-Alliance/sedutil/wiki/Command-Syntax

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz

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not sure about secure erase, but the manual trim works. At least with my ssds (intel, noname kingfast), not sure with ALL ssds.

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Tried it out, it says that all of my SanDisk SSDs are unsupported!
:(

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