Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

[JorgeA]

I think that there is a perfectly good reason for this. I wonder what is the actual usage of DVD playback on Windows 7? I personally do not know anyone who uses this feature. That being said, those I know from online that use it do not use WMP to do it! Maybe PowerDVD or some other tool. MS is working towards creating products for specific purposes. I would imagine that those using HTPCs are going to be pushed towards the Home Server SKU to take care of that complaint. One thing is for sure, I know for a fact that most people use the wrong OS for what they want, but they don't know that. Then they don't want to hear that and don't like the idea of switching to the "correct" OS.

Tripredacus,

Count me as one of those who uses the CD/DVD function in Windows Media Player. But I do admit that it's not a huge deal for me, since I don't use it that often and there are options out there.

Still, I can't see buying a computer for any purpose, that didn't include an optical drive. What if the computer gets infected and I need to scan it with a Linux live system? Will a notebook or Intel tablet necessarily include the ability to boot off a flash drive? Or what if the hard drive fails or the OS gets totally borked, and I need to reinstall Windows -- how does one do that without an independent (optical) drive?

More worrisome to me than the loss of native DVD support is the relegation of Windows Media Center, not only to add-on status, but to an add-on that you can get only if you're willing to shell out for the most expensive SKU. WMC has been a hidden treasure for far too long, and now instead of bringing it out and showing it off to the world (marketing), they've decided to make it even harder to get at.

It was intriguing what you said about most people using the wrong OS for what they want, but they don't know that. Can you elaborate?

--JorgeA

Edited May 11, 2012 by JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Not a day goes by without hearing about another dubious 'feature'.

At least they're not spending their money on making an out-of-touch music video for their phone, right? Oops, seems like they did! What the hell were they thinking?

In other news, they have decided that IE10 will get access to features other browser vendors will not have access to, making for an uneven playing field. I know Mozilla et al can still make a Metro version, but they can't optimize it, nor rely on the system to provide advanced functionality like Just-In-Time compiling (JIT) and security related features. People cite small market share of WinRT, but Windows is Windows to me. And I just hope they aren't thinking of returning to their anti-trust shenanigans of yore. Even so, the claims that they're doing it for security are absolutely unfounded, they could block/forbid any product that they deemed unworthy, but instead they opt to keep them all out on the premise that "they won't be safe", IE10 isn't infallible either. And of course, as a last line of defense: "Apple does it too" .

Great defense, Apple2 err Microsoft.

While I'm no longer in the market to buy anything labeled Windows 8, I'm getting more and more bewildered about what it is that they put in the water in Redmond.

Sigh.

belgianguy,

Nice find on that Nokia video. Did you notice near the end of the video, they were shuffling off floppy disks?

I think the defense for allowing only IE in the Windows on ARM version involves making an analogy to phones. The idea is that a smartphone has a built-in browser, and nobody seems to complain that it's the only browser available.

OTOH, as the Mozilla lawyer pointed out, there are plans for ARM-based PCs. If IE is the only browser allowed, it puts all others at a disadvantage in the PC segment. IMHO it all has to do with this notion of unifying the user experience and treating a PC like a tablet like a phone.

What CoffeeFiend said a few posts back, bears repeating: a PC is not a phone, and a phone is not a PC.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

What CoffeeFiend said a few posts back, bears repeating: a PC is not a phone, and a phone is not a PC.

Hmmm.

What about "Fone+"? :

http://phys.org/news98525702.html

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/07/05/16/2236230/microsoft-says-your-phone-is-your-next-pc

What about this?

Seriously now, news from 2002 :

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1001925,00.html

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

Cool picture! Given the rollers at the bottom, we might say that that was an early version of a "mobile" phone...

Hmm, I'd never heard of the Fone+. I guess I never paid attention to it -- I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Like a horror-movie monster that won't quit till it overrruns the whole city, it looks like Metro style is invading the Desktop. Check out these screenshots: The Desktop buttons, checkboxes, scroll bar, and spinner are all taking on the flat Metro look in the Windows 8 Release Preview.

The text explains that the intent is to lessen the visual shock of switching back and forth between Desktop and Metro. As implemented, of course, the result is that Metro style is taking over the Desktop. So, for those (mostly in other forums) who've said that you can always just stay in the Desktop -- well, Microsoft intends to force-feed users the unleavened bread of Metro even in the (formerly) visually rich Desktop experience.

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

The Desktop buttons, checkboxes, scroll bar, and spinner are all taking on the flat Metro look in the Windows 8 Release Preview

Wow. Just when it thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...

[JorgeA]

Catching up on my podcasts, I came across the following exchange in "Security Now!" with Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte. CoffeeFiend may find it especially interesting, as he's suggested that, post-Windows, Apple would be his first choice. (Emphasis added.)

Steve: ...And I did pick up a little security news that Apple has postponed their enforcement of app sandboxing, iOS app sandboxing. So Touch, Phone, and iPad. It was going to go into effect around now, but they're moving it back to March 1st and then saying we're not moving it again. Now, the problem is that this is - it's a mixed blessing. It is an enhancement to the security of iOS and of all iOS apps at the inevitable cost of features. So developers are not happy and have not been implementing Apple's sandboxing because it is restricting. It's restrictive and restricting some things that they would like to be able to do, reaching out of their own file system zone in order to --

Leo: It's actually, Steve, it's worse than you think.

...

Leo: It's not iOS, it's the desktop. They're talking about all apps sold in the Mac App Store. And I understand your confusion because you don't use an iPhone.

Steve: No.

Leo: They're not talking about iOS. That's already implemented. They're talking about in the App Store for desktops. So it's really kind of a shocker. And it's something I'd actually been worried about for some time because, while you can still, and always probably will be able to - well, I shouldn't say always - for the time being be able to sell apps outside the App Store, there's so much convenience and value to buying apps in the App Store that I think a lot of users have moved to the App Store. So what Apple's now saying, they've said all along no demos, no betas. What Apple is now saying is, if you want to --

Steve: I'm stunned.

Leo: I'm stunned, too. If you want to sell apps in the App Store on the desktop, your apps must be sandboxed. We've talked about this on MacBreak Weekly. I think the iOS-ification of the desktop is where Apple's headed.

...

Steve: Oh, yeah, as I said, with the inevitable loss of features. Now I'm stunned.

Leo: Can you imagine an application that cannot write to the file system?

Steve: Holy moly.

Leo: I truly believe that Apple's intent is to get everybody using its desktop computers to essentially be in an iOS-style state. It will be undoubtedly secure. And I don't, at some point, I don't understand how the transition's going to occur because of course you can still - I can buy an app that can write to the file system and for the time being will continue to. At some point, for this to make any sense, Apple's going to have to turn that feature off and say, just as on iOS, you must buy from the App Store, unless you jailbreak it.

...

Leo: Am I wrong? If you sandbox, does that not mean that you cannot write to the file system? Isn't that what that means?

...

Leo: I think what's really happening, and I think - now, with Steve [Jobs] gone, this may change. There are already some changes happening. And I think that this was a Steve. But with Steve gone, some of this is up in the air. But here's what I think they were headed towards: making, essentially making - and by the way, Microsoft's kind of doing the same thing with Windows 8 - making the desktop essentially an iOS, which is more secure, more controlled. I suspect Apple's apps, just as on the iOS, Apple's apps can do things that other people can't, because we trust ourselves, I suspect that what this does is pushes you - and Apple's always wanted this - into Apple apps. Apple would like you to buy only Apple apps...

...

Leo: ...I think what will happen is that people who want a full operating system will have to migrate somewhere else.

The following provides some background:

Leo: Now, the question is also how Apple implements sandboxing. We're interpreting it in the most draconian, strictest form. And I'm looking at what they do right now in OS X Lion, and they do allow an app, for instance, to write to the hard drive. But they have to go through Apple's dialogue box to do so. They can't examine other people's files. In other words, it's almost like application-based permissions.

Steve: Yes. I'm looking at something here, it says, "To then meet the program's needs, the developer includes a sandbox rule called an 'entitlement.' That allows the program to access the needed resource defined in that entitlement. The entitlements are managed by Apple, and thereby allow Apple to centralize how sandboxed programs can access resources in OS X."

Comments? As Steve and Leo say at another point, soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

You are not the only one:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dumb%20phone

http://news.yahoo.com/stubborn-pride-dumbphone-owners-171852131.html

http://www.prdaily.com/Main/Articles/PR_pro_I_own_a_dumb_phoneand_Im_proud_of_it_11560.aspx

and a nice picture from the latter:

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

I can relate to everything they said in those links! Thanks for posting them.

--JorgeA

Edited May 12, 2012 by JorgeA

[cluberti]

LOL - love that pic

[CoffeeFiend]

I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

Same here. I just want a phone that can make phone calls. In fact, I only have a landline. It's definitely easier on the wallet! Unlimited calling, including long distance for $20/month flat. Getting cell phones for me and the kids on a shared plan, with some daytime minutes, some long distance, unlimited text and some data would cost me like ten times that.

So developers are not happy and have not been implementing Apple's sandboxing because it is restricting. It's restrictive and restricting some things that they would like to be able to do, reaching out of their own file system zone

Sandboxing sort of makes sense for a web browser and dinky apps. But yes, for regular old software it just gets in your way.

They're talking about all apps sold in the Mac App Store

So yeah, dinky apps sold online (no matter which device they run on) will run sandboxed. I mean, just how much access a dumb twitter client or weather app should need on your PC? That's not one of my real concerns.

Like they said, you can still install software that's not sandboxed, and most likely it'll always stay that way. I can live with that. That's not my main issue with Win8 either (simpleminded Metro apps run sandboxed, but everything else isn't)

I think what will happen is that people who want a full operating system will have to migrate somewhere else

Too bad there's nowhere else to go I guess. Yes, Windows and OS X may possibly one day be entirely sandboxed, as unlikely as it seems, and that would make running some software a real pain or downright impossible. However the main alternative to both is fundamentally incompatible with commercial software, so it'll most likely never be a viable platform for a lot of us.

soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go

...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow.

All I want is to be able to run the software we need to get the job done. Right now that means running Windows, and OS X to a lesser extent (it still has FAR less useful apps, by a LONG shot, but it's still usable for a lot of tasks). However, even if Windows has more software going for it, they're going "full retard" with the UI, so I'd rather work on a Mac (not so much because it has an outstanding UI, but because anything and everything is better than Metro), and Macs stand a chance of getting more commercial software in the next few years (especially if MS screws up this badly). Linux offers an UI that's somewhat lesser than OS X (IMHO), but that's mostly irrelevant as it doesn't run the software we need and it most likely never will.

[JorgeA]

CoffeFiend,

Thanks for the comments, it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing from someone who has heavy-duty professional requirements.

soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go

...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow.

To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word. FWIW, in case it changes anything the exact way they put it was:

Steve: ...I was going to say that, if this continues, then this really changes the terrain, where these mainstream, high-volume, consumer OSes become closed systems, and Linux for the first time really starts to look like the place where the hackers --

Leo: If you want to do anything, yeah.

Steve: -- and the power users live, yeah.

All I want is to be able to run the software we need to get the job done. Right now that means running Windows, and OS X to a lesser extent (it still has FAR less useful apps, by a LONG shot, but it's still usable for a lot of tasks). However, even if Windows has more software going for it, they're going "full retard" with the UI, so I'd rather work on a Mac (not so much because it has an outstanding UI, but because anything and everything is better than Metro), and Macs stand a chance of getting more commercial software in the next few years (especially if MS screws up this badly). Linux offers an UI that's somewhat lesser than OS X (IMHO), but that's mostly irrelevant as it doesn't run the software we need and it most likely never will.

Yeah, that would be a killer. Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread, and yet as you point out they've been giving the OS away for years and they're still at -- what, only 1% market share or something. We might say that Linux stands at the opposite extreme of what Microsoft is trying to do with Metro: esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle. Classic Windows was a good middle ground between Metro simplistic and Linux arduous.

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing

I wouldn't exactly consider myself as some sort of reference regarding anything Apple really.

To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word.

Ah, yes. That changes the big picture a bit.

Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread

I hear that a lot, but they pretty much always fail to express exactly in what way it's better. Most of them are just blindly repeating what they've heard like good sheeple. Should you ask them an explanation, they'll typically reply with "it's free/open source" which basically means "I have no idea!" or "teh M$ sux!". About 1% of the time, you'll get an intelligent answer, by someone's who's been using it professionally for years, explaining how they use bash, common userland tools (grep, sed, cat, etc) and SSH to do their job (typically things like working with a LAMP stack on Linux servers -- not your typical desktop workload). Then again, I've seen that kind of answer come from Mac users more often. Also, it's kinda funny to see this as an answer to "how much more advanced Linux is", when most of these utils are from the 1970's Unix world (that sounds so futuristic!) The same brainwashed sheeple are those who will tell you Linux has all the software anyone could possibly need (you know, GIMP is is like, as good or better than Photoshop!), that you should run all your games under WINE, and that the hardware support is so much better than Windows (which is just a total BSOD-fest, you know) -- and if you say any different then you're either a troll or a paid shill... According to them, this year will be the year of the Linux. Those delusional people have been saying that for over a decade, it's just what particular feature they talk of which changes over time (it used to be things like GNOME, not so long ago it was Compiz Fusion, right now it's things like Wayland and I'm already wondering what it'll be next) -- while totally disregarding the big picture. They'll keep changing distros every few years (you can already see lots of people abandoning Ubuntu, which was the "new hot thing" 5 years ago), or as a way to solve issues with their current distro. Meanwhile, more users who are dissatisfied with MS products move to Macs pear year than Linux has gotten in 20 years, even if it requires buying new and expensive hardware.

esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle

Perhaps to some extent. I can deal with that part, but the very limited selection of software that runs on Linux is very much a deal killer for me. If I can't get work done then what good is it? I'll still take a somewhat locked-down OS that runs most useful software over one that's unlocked but doesn't. Macs seem like the new "middle ground": it doesn't run as much as Windows, but it runs more than Linux. I still find Macs very limiting when it comes to what runs on them but at least you're free from Metro. I find Win7 to be a far better option than both, but that's only going to be a viable option for so long.

[Tripredacus]

Funny you should mention downgrades. I just bought, on clearance, a tower system that was billed as "Vista Business." But when I booted up the machine, I got the XP splash screen. It turns out that the box came with separate DVD sets for both XP and Vista. So we might say that the computer was "pre-downgraded" to XP...

I'm wondering how aggressive Microsoft will be about pushing Windows 8. Will they disallow downgrades to 7? Given the other crazy things they've done, nothing would surprise me at this stage!

Yes when Vista came out, MS allowed a period for Downgrade Rights, which I think was 8 months or so. I can't remember the exact period. It was very helpful in business since many companies wanted to stick with XP. Even when Windows 7 came out, it had Downgrade Rights to Vista but I don't recall anyone actually using that. I'd expect the same model to continue for Windows 8 to 7, but I haven't heard anything about the program yet.

[Fredledingue]

As soon as I see that there is an interface in existance looking like Metro* on my PC, I immediately ask for refund.

(* or whatever the next "Bob" is called.)