The Official Windows 9x is Dead Thread

[LoneCrusader]

I think that what should be done is a sticky should be made for people who have just obtained/setup a 9x machine that lays out step-by-step exactly what they would need to do to take the machine from a factory installation to stable, secure and robust with the various patches and applications that have been developed, and this guide should be updated as new patches and applications are released. Because honestly, if I were to put 98 on my machine right now, I wouldn't have a clue about where to start with all these third-party mods that have been released. I don't know what all is out there or what it does or where to get it, and going through this forum thread by thread is impractical. I am curious, though.

I have seen several people make this request, and I understand where you are coming from. The problem with making such a thread is that not everyone wants the same updates made to their system, not everyone wants the same modifications made, etc etc etc. For example - I regard NUSB as an integral part of any Windows 98 setup. However I do not use and do not recommend the Unofficial Service Pack. Many people love Tihiy's Revolutions Pack, and I greatly admire his ability and his dedication, but I like my Windows 98 GUI just like it is by default. The last thing I want to do to it is disgrace it with some XP lego-look. In fact, if I had to choose between Windows Vista and Windows 7, I would take Vista for one reason - it still has the classic Start menu. And the list goes on. These updates are chosen by personal preference, and some are incompatible with each other or require special tweaking to work together.

What are some of the compatible apps that you would suggest in these categories? Also, something like video editing requires a good bit of RAM. How can you get 98 to utilize, say, 4 gigs? And how does 98 respond to modern CPUs?

Simple - you buy RLoew's RAM Lmitation Patch and install it. Problem solved. No trial-and-error. No editing INI files or any such rubbish. No Tweaking. No looking back.

As for the CPU's, I am aware of no issues with modern CPU's other than the fact that Windows 9x cannot use multiple processor cores. It can be run on those processors, but will only use one core. Whats more important is drivers for current motherboards. Lack of driver support for newer hardware is IMO the worst hurdle facing Windows 9x at this point. However, 9x drivers exist for P4-class motherboards and some of the early 9xx series Intel chipset boards.

...

As for legitimate sites being compromised, I've heard about such cases, but life is not without risk. I've never picked up a virus by going to Google or reading the news on MSN, so I just don't worry about it.

While I was at college, I got a virus on the XP machines there TWICE by simply searching for pictures on Google. Nothing "out of the way" either, I was trying to find a picture of a car to show a friend. And these machines have SP3, Virus Scanners, and DeepFreeze. DeepFreeze cured it with a reboot, but the fact remains - a simple Google search produced an infected machine.

One thing I wonder is where everyone finds the TIME. I assume most people here have jobs, maybe families or at least a significant other, interests beyond computing, and--I would assume--computing projects that are more contemporary in their focus. So how does anyone find the time to develop stuff for Windows 98?

It's not easy, and I wish I had more time and had more knowledge. If I ever win the lottery maybe I'll hire someone to do nothing except work on Windows 9x issues.

[jaclaz]

Back that one up 7 is lightyears ahead of Vista.....

Actually, and for the record, IMHO it was Vista that was so many lightyears behind *anything* that Windows 7 in comparison is light years ahead (though actually it is just a few kilometers - maybe - ahead of previous NT based systems).

But more generally I fail to see any "lightyear" scale progresses.

Let's forget for one moment "professional work" (I mean peeps using as a profession top graphical apps, CAD, animation and video editing programs or rendering, etc.).

Let's forget also the eye candy.

What has changed in 2011 as compared to 2001 (ten years) for "normal" office or home use?

You have an e-mail program, a word processor and a spreadsheet + a .pdf viewer of some kind and an internet browser.

You compose e-mails and reply to them, write a letter to be printed and sent via snail mail or faxed, you do some (crappy ) spreadsheet tables, you go on the internet to find something useful or fun.

Then at the office you have some vertical accounting program, very often a port of a COBOL program that existed and worked since the dawn of time, or a database of some kind.

Additionally you may have some crappy and slow "platform portable" java-based program. (not hat they are particularly bad, only they are just a different way to "deliver" a "same" functionality that has been there since years)

I am not a gamer, but from what I can see there hasn't been any "revolution" connected to the actual OS is booted.

The hardware is what ? 10 times faster (but in the meantime the OS and, for example, the Office suite has grown in size and complexity with a similar rate), see here:

http://www.oooninja.com/2008/05/openofficeorg-microsoft-office-moores.html

We still have basically (in most cases) the same way of interaction with the hardware (keyboard/mouse/screen/audio).

The only real enhancement is IMHO the "web experience" but this has very little to do with the actual OS, it is a combination of the faster hardware (comprising the actual DSL or however much faster than dialup connection) and of the increased amount of contents the web has to offer.

Sure, we have nice graphical effects, Aero and what not, but this is mainly eye-candy, nothing that has changed the usage paradigm IMHO.

jaclaz

[PROBLEMCHYLD]

If I ever win the lottery maybe I'll hire someone to do nothing except work on Windows 9x issues.

Me too!

The problem with making such a thread is that not everyone wants the same updates made to their system, not everyone wants the same modifications made, etc etc etc.

I think any unofficial SP should only contain the necessities, not the apps the creator of the SP use on their computer.

Edited September 13, 2011 by PROBLEMCHYLD

[SPX]

I have seen several people make this request, and I understand where you are coming from. The problem with making such a thread is that not everyone wants the same updates made to their system, not everyone wants the same modifications made, etc

That makes sense. I think it could be broken down into stages, with each stage listing those things that are essential, and those which are optional, with a description of what they all do.

Obviously it would take some patient and kind soul to take the time to do it, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle.

Simple - you buy RLoew's RAM Lmitation Patch and install it. Problem solved. No trial-and-error. No editing INI files or any such rubbish. No Tweaking. No looking back.

As for the CPU's, I am aware of no issues with modern CPU's other than the fact that Windows 9x cannot use multiple processor cores. It can be run on those processors, but will only use one core. Whats more important is drivers for current motherboards. Lack of driver support for newer hardware is IMO the worst hurdle facing Windows 9x at this point. However, 9x drivers exist for P4-class motherboards and some of the early 9xx series Intel chipset boards.

You see, that seems like an issue to me, because a P4-class mobo means you have to run a P4-class processor, and that just seems insufficient to me for CPU-intensive tasks like video editing.

In any case, my interest in 98 is primarily aimed at continuing to nostalgically play with older computers and to see what I can make them do. When I bought my Libretto a few years ago, I had to go through quite a bit to get it up and running. There was no CD drive, so I had to create a floppy disk set of Win 95 installation disks (in fact, I had to go buy some floppies just to do it . . . don't think I had touched a floppy disk in 5 years or more), load Win 95 via floppy, then use an infrared connection between the Libretto and another laptop I had to transfer the Win 98 installation files for the upgrade. (This was the ONLY time I have ever used an infrared connection and just got lucky that I happened to have a laptop that had the capability.) From there, I installed 98 and was able to get a wi-fi adapter to work (not really reliably, though), and then downloaded a virtual disc app so that I could load an ISO and play . . . The 7th Guest! (Remember that game?)

That was a lot of fun. There was no real purpose behind it other than just to do it, but I got a kick out of going through the process. It really is a shame that soon after I killed the Libretto with a soldering iron when I tried to overclock the CPU from 166 MHz to 233.

While I was at college, I got a virus on the XP machines there TWICE by simply searching for pictures on Google. Nothing "out of the way" either, I was trying to find a picture of a car to show a friend. And these machines have SP3, Virus Scanners, and DeepFreeze. DeepFreeze cured it with a reboot, but the fact remains - a simple Google search produced an infected machine.

That's interesting. So how does that happen? I mean, are people hacking the Yahoo and Google servers and uploading little files to infect people's machines?

[SPX]

What has changed in 2011 as compared to 2001 (ten years) for "normal" office or home use?

I definitely agree with this. Like you say, most of the advances have been made on the Internet. Games also look better, though the state of PC gaming right now is kind of sad. Most of the big multi-platform console games used to come to the PC too, but alas, this is no longer the case.

But beyond that, not much is different. Office 97 really did more than enough to satisfy the vast majority of user's needs in terms of office apps. XP, in my opinion, was a big step up in terms of stability (at least out of the box), but Vista and 7 don't really do anything special for me that XP didn't do.

[Fredledingue]

I think that what should be done is a sticky should be made for people who have just obtained/setup a 9x machine that lays out step-by-step exactly what they would need to do to take the machine from a factory installation to stable' date=' secure and robust with the various patches and applications that have been developed,[/quote']

We tried this and... it appeared that nbody could agree on the exect steps since everybody had another set of upgrade packs.

Here, I made an attempt of listing all the updates from the last unofficial service pack. but it's not, by far, the only formula.

The issue I have with this argument is that most of those problems don't come from Windows' date=' but rather from all the crap that manufacturers load up onto the system before they ship it out the door. I installed a fresh copy of Win 7 on my machine and did very little in the way of tweaking and it runs quite well. If people leave all the factory apps on their system, and run Norton, and download everything that tries to download onto their machine, and accept every toolbar that wants to attach itself to IE, then yes it will run terribly. But I don't blame that on Windows.

[/quote']

True. Yet for some reason we don't face this problem on w9x.

What are some of the compatible apps that you would suggest in these categories?

You probably know Virtual Dub? Don't you?

BUt yes' date=' you'd better use a double core processor with 7 than a single core on w98.

If you tweak Vista or 7 so that no other software or service comes into the way of processing your video it can go quiet fast. You can Xvid a full movie in 40 min (for one pass) with a modern double core machine. It takes me 4 hours on my 1.8Ghz P3.

There are obvious questions that makes w9x obsolete in certain cases. eg. when you buy a new computer.

Also, something like video editing requires a good bit of RAM. How can you get 98 to utilize, say, 4 gigs? And how does 98 respond to modern CPUs?

DVD files never exceed 2G (I dunno 'bout Blue Rays though). Other way to get video, like capture can becontroled so that the files never ecxeed that limit.

Anyway editing a 4gb file is not practical. I always recommand splitting in smaller parts even on nt systems.

As for RAM, it depends on the software. Virtual Dub needs 64Mb or something like that. Patched w98se supports 2Gb I think. Ask RLoew he knows better.

I seriously consider even OS X 10.0 to be superior to windows XP and Vista

I agree. Everybody I know who switched from Vista to Mac are so happy to be hassel free overnight.

It's like,... wow everything works!

[JorgeA]

I think that what should be done is a sticky should be made for people who have just obtained/setup a 9x machine that lays out step-by-step exactly what they would need to do to take the machine from a factory installation to stable' date=' secure and robust with the various patches and applications that have been developed,[/quote']

We tried this and... it appeared that nbody could agree on the exect steps since everybody had another set of upgrade packs.

Here, I made an attempt of listing all the updates from the last unofficial service pack. but it's not, by far, the only formula.

Fredledingue,

Your page is a great idea! I love MDGx's website, but I find it a bit overwhelming and somewhat confusing to wade through.

Instead of trying to agree on the exact upgrade path, how about a Sticky that simply collects and lists all the available updates/upgrades and their respective purposes? That way the user could browse in one place (one-stop shopping) and pick and choose what he needs. It would also help to include information on the order of upgrades -- "install X before Y," or "make sure NOT to install C if you install B," that sort of thing.

The trouble with a sticky thread is that it can grow to such enormous proportions that no one can read it all to get all the information relevant to their goals. So it would also require frequent "pruning" to keep it to a manageable level -- maybe a single master post to which improvements and suggestions are regularly incorporated and then the new posts deleted.

Other than that, we could have frequent postings with a link to your page.

--JorgeA

[dencorso]

And there's soporific's Complete List of Hotfixes + Updates for 98 SE, which is not up-to-date anymore, but should not be neglected, either.

[LoneCrusader]

But more generally I fail to see any "lightyear" scale progresses.

...

Sure, we have nice graphical effects, Aero and what not, but this is mainly eye-candy, nothing that has changed the usage paradigm IMHO.

Well said jaclaz.

I think any unofficial SP should only contain the necessities, not the apps the creator of the SP use on their computer.

I agree. I think USP's should only contain official MS updates in the main install, and if the creator wants to add options for unofficial fixes, special tweaks, and/or program replacements, fine, but they should be strictly optional and not interdependent.

My gripe with the 98SE USP is that it makes tweaks that are incompatible with RLoew's RAM Limitation Patch. A test system of mine with both installed was very unstable and did not correctly report the amount of RAM installed. Without the USP, there is no problem.

The Windows 95 OSR 2.x USP crashed one of my test systems as well. It seems to be incompatible with my FIX95CPU upgrade which contains only official MS fixes (with the sole exception of RLoew's PTCHCDFS).

That makes sense. I think it could be broken down into stages, with each stage listing those things that are essential, and those which are optional, with a description of what they all do.

Obviously it would take some patient and kind soul to take the time to do it, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle.

Agreed. But as you see, not all of us even agree on what is "essential." Many here would deem the USP "essential," whereas I would list it as "to be avoided."

You see, that seems like an issue to me, because a P4-class mobo means you have to run a P4-class processor, and that just seems insufficient to me for CPU-intensive tasks like video editing.

In any case, my interest in 98 is primarily aimed at continuing to nostalgically play with older computers and to see what I can make them do. When I bought my Libretto a few years ago, I had to go through quite a bit to get it up and running. There was no CD drive, so I had to create a floppy disk set of Win 95 installation disks (in fact, I had to go buy some floppies just to do it . . . don't think I had touched a floppy disk in 5 years or more), load Win 95 via floppy, then use an infrared connection between the Libretto and another laptop I had to transfer the Win 98 installation files for the upgrade. (This was the ONLY time I have ever used an infrared connection and just got lucky that I happened to have a laptop that had the capability.) From there, I installed 98 and was able to get a wi-fi adapter to work (not really reliably, though), and then downloaded a virtual disc app so that I could load an ISO and play . . . The 7th Guest! (Remember that game?)

That was a lot of fun. There was no real purpose behind it other than just to do it, but I got a kick out of going through the process. It really is a shame that soon after I killed the Libretto with a soldering iron when I tried to overclock the CPU from 166 MHz to 233.

I have always found P4-class processors to be extremely fast and reliable, especially when running Windows 9x. Of course I should also point out that all of my P4's are 2.8GHz or faster (except a couple of 2.0 GHz ones I had stockpiled from before I broke the 95 2.1GHz barrier).

IMHO, you have not really experienced Windows 9x until you have run it on P4-equivalent hardware. You click and things are done. It's a situation where the hardware is finally fast enough to make the OS fun to use.

They make the hardware faster, and Microsoft makes the software slower. It's an endless cycle. I imagine that machines now supposedly designed for Windows 7 would be excellent for running XP.

That's interesting. So how does that happen? I mean, are people hacking the Yahoo and Google servers and uploading little files to infect people's machines?

I am most certainly no expert on malware. In all of my computing days, I have only contracted a virus on my home machine once. I do not use Antivirus software, because IMHO, it operates in the same manner as a virus - it slows down my machine and is a real pain to get rid of once installed. My policy is somewhat similar to the one you stated above - I use common sense and don't go to the wrong places or click on the wrong things.

I would surmise that the XP problem I described came from something that was embedded into the websites that were displayed as results by Google Image search.

[tsampikos]

These OSes might not be officially supported BUT they are unofficially supported AND they will be always alive thanks to the existence of the Virtual Machine apps. There are thousands of games and applications out there which can not be so easy ignored. And the virtual systems, via Virtualbox or Virtual PC etc. are not quite "Virtual". They use system resourses and devices of the actual system, which are just "transormed" for the old OS needs. So you could say that they are as much "actual" systems as "virtual".

[JorgeA]

And there's soporific's Complete List of Hotfixes + Updates for 98 SE, which is not up-to-date anymore, but should not be neglected, either.

Oh yeah, this is great -- very close to what I had in mind.

Thanks for the link. I'm adding this one, too, to my Favorites.

Too bad it's not being kept up to date any longer!

--JorgeA

[submix8c]

Thanks for the link. I'm adding this one, too, to my Favorites.

Too bad it's not being kept up to date any longer!

Just go to the 9x Sub-Forum and look around. That particular link (along with many others) is in the "Stickified" topic.

BTW, you might note that the "Complete List" was last updated Dec. 15, 2008, well past the "dropped support date" of 2007. The only thing that might be beyond that would be IE6 "unofficial" and (possibly) other contributed/purchased "unofficial" fixes. It probably won't get much better than that.

[JorgeA]

Thanks for the link. I'm adding this one, too, to my Favorites.

Too bad it's not being kept up to date any longer!

Just go to the 9x Sub-Forum and look around. That particular link (along with many others) is in the "Stickified" topic.

BTW, you might note that the "Complete List" was last updated Dec. 15, 2008, well past the "dropped support date" of 2007. The only thing that might be beyond that would be IE6 "unofficial" and (possibly) other contributed/purchased "unofficial" fixes. It probably won't get much better than that.

submix8c,

I looked in both the 9x sub-forum and in the "member projects" sub-sub-forum and did not find this particular thread in the stickies (the ones with the green boxes before the thread title). Are you sure it's a sticky?

In a sense, it's good to know that there may not be much more to keep track of after 12/2008 -- that simplifies matters. On the other hand, that would tie in with what the OP was saying, that there's little new work being done on Win98.

--JorgeA

[herbalist]

IMHO, you have not really experienced Windows 9x until you have run it on P4-equivalent hardware. You click and things are done. It's a situation where the hardware is finally fast enough to make the OS fun to use.

Definitely. It gets even faster when you use 98lite to strip out Internet Explorer and the other junk.

Screwupgrading,

That Dell Optiplex GX260 is the same model I built my present 98 system on. Mine is a P4-2.4GHZ, 1GB RAM. I got rid of the 40GB hard drive and replaced it with a 160GB. All of the drivers are easily available, both thru Dell support and thru Intel downloads. The Intel site has the best graphics driver for this PC. Skip the most recent one. The previous version (4.14.10.3722) works better on 98. Between the unofficial upgrades and the help I received here with the setup, I've ended up with a rock stable and dependable 98 unit that does everything I've asked of it. Whille 1Gb of RAM might not be enough to edit video, it's more than enough to run Virtual PC and a Tor relay. Yes, building a really good 98 unit does require some knowledge (which is abundant here) and it does take a little time. You only have to do it once. After that, you add to it, modify it, and enjoy seeing just how much it can do that used to be impossible on a 98 unit.

I remember the first time Malwarebytes found something on my dad's PC that McAfee didn't find. It was like some paradigm shift for him. He just couldn't imagine how a free program could be better at detection than something he pays for.

The teachings of capitalism. They do not hold true when it comes to software. A lot of the best software I know of is free, including the security apps I use on 98. All but one application on my PC is freeware or Open Source. Between them, you can find almost anything you want.

Regarding upgrading 98 and what to use:

IMO, the ideal format for an updating/upgrading guide would be a branching flow chart. It would take a lot of thought and time to cover the more common variables but the results would be more useful to more people. Example, I've found the unofficial service pack 2.1 to be very good, but it includes updates for files and components I stripped out during the initial setup with 98lite. For me, a package with no Internet Explorer components would be a better choice. LoneCrusader mentioned not using Revolutions Pack because he prefers the original interface. I installed it, but not for the interface update or the eye candy. I wanted the improved resource handling that it includes. Other upgrades like NUSB are almost must have improvements, unless you don't plan on ever using USB accessories. If your hardware is USB 1.0 or 1.1, it's worthwhile getting a 2.0 USB card. Many of them use the Orangeware drivers, which are completely compatible with NUSB. I bought one for my old HP, 366MHZ Celeron running 98FE. Between NUSB and the Orangeware drivers, it works great with external hard drives and flash drives, at 2.0 speeds. Upgrades like KernelEx are necessary if you plan on using a newer browser or the latest version of flash player. I've had better results upgrading all of the system components first, then installing KernelEx afterwards.

That's interesting. So how does that happen? I mean, are people hacking the Yahoo and Google servers and uploading little files to infect people's machines?

They're not hacking Google directly. There's an ongoing battle between Google and those who work at manipulating their search results. They poison the results of common searches so that their links appear high up in the list. Those links lead to malicious sites that attempt to infect your system. They use unpatched browser exploits, malicious javascript, vulnerabilities in flash player, PDF software, and most anything that is usually integrated into the browser. Modern interactive web content has only made the problem worse by effectively increasing your attack surface. A default-deny security policy will defeat the majority of the methods used to compromise PCs. The worst attack vector on 98 has always been Internet Explorer. It's also responsible for much of the instability and resource problems that have been blamed on 98.

[jaclaz]

The worst attack vector on 98 has always been Internet Explorer. It's also responsible for much of the instability and resource problems that have been blamed on 98.

I beg to differ.

IMHO the real problem (not only on 98) is/was/will be Outlook Express (re: virus/malware), and the exploits with addresses and the habit of a number of peeps (in perfect good faith) to send to all the people they know the latest "funny" flash/exe/whatever, with a spreading rate (given the theory of the 6 degrees of separation) that outnumbers what a poor little (malware filled) site may do.

The real problem with Internet Explorer (besides obviously it's vulnerabilities, know or unknown) are the "ignorance" of users combined with the FALSE sense of security having an antivirus gives them.

I mean, you have a nice, brand new high tech kevlar and carbon fiber bullet proof vest.

Are you going at 3 AM alone and on foot in one of the "hot zones" in your city/country/whatever shouting:

I'm invulnerable shoot at me, SHOOT AT ME!

Also, IMHO it is not Internet Explorer (how bad it can be) in itself the instability/resource problem, raher it's integration with Explorer (loop to why a 98 lite is way faster )

jaclaz