Where do I get the Sysinternals FAT32 driver for NT4?

[BookWorm]

I have Windows 98SE installed to an "8 Gig" (8000Mb) partition on a 320 Gig drive. I want to install NT4, but I need the Sysinternals bootable FAT32 driver first. Where can I download it now?

Second, how do I install it? For Windows 98SE on this computer, it was necessary to copy the win98 folder to the hard drive and install from there. Can I do the same with NT4, and just copy the FAT32 driver to the i386 before installing? Or is it more complicated than that?

[allen2]

You should read this post: http://www.msfn.org/board/slipstreaming-sp6a-t109439.html

[BookWorm]

That post appears to start with NT4 already installed. It also starts with something called "slipstreaming" which as far as I can tell is a form of warp drive but not the kind used by the Federation. (I haven't read/watched scifi in years, don't miss it, and can't remember what show used "slipstream".)

All I learned from it is that the link posted for the Sysinternals FAT32 upgrade doesn't work and I already knew that. I still don't know how to install it.

[jaclaz]

@bookworm

The Windows NT FAT32 driver, was a commercial product by Wininternals (the read/write version), with quite a bit of limitations, including that of NOT being "bootable":

http://web.archive.org/web/20020124185910/www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/fat32.shtml

but it was available a Read Only driver, with further limitations:

http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1047372.html

Limitations

Within Windows NT, you won’t be able to partition or create FAT32 drives. Since the driver gives read-only support, you won’t be able to use applications to save data to FAT32 drives. Also, since Windows NT 4.0 drivers aren’t initialized until after boot, you won’t be able to boot Windows NT 4.0 from a FAT32 partition. Therefore, never convert your primary, or boot, partition to FAT32. If you have a multiboot system, it’s a good idea to always keep your disk’s primary partition formatted as FAT16. FAT16 is the universal language read by most operating systems that you’ll want to set up on a multiboot disk. In addition, don’t use a program such as Partition Magic to format your Windows NT partitions to FAT32, as this program is read-only. You’ll need your native FAT16 or NTFS file system for read/write activity.

Direct link to the freeware read only version:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020124185910/http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/ntfswin98.shtml

The given post by fdv is pointing (point 7b) to a second driver from Ashedel (and the links is working allright):

http://ashedel.chat.ru/

http://ashedel.chat.ru/fat32/

http://ashedel.chat.ru/fat32/fastfat32.rar

which is said to provide bootability, but your mileage may and will vary.

jaclaz

Edited May 17, 2010 by jaclaz

[BookWorm]

Thanks, I'll try that one. Is it the one that requires the Windows 2000 OS loader?

I should have pointed out that I'm far from being an expert, and the post allen2 suggested appears to be for experts.

[jaclaz]

Thanks, I'll try that one. Is it the one that requires the Windows 2000 OS loader?

Not really. (which in this particular case means yes ).

Basically NTLDR is a "mini-OS" or "embedded-DOS".

When you boot this part of the executable loads a "real mode OS" that is used to load the NT kernel and drivers i.e. the "protected mode".

The NT4.00 NTLDR obviously knows nothing about FAT32 so it cannot simply access the volume is on if formatted FAT32.

In other words, when you want to boot from a filesystem that is not supported under NT, you need to have BOTH a compatible NTLDR and the filesystem driver for the "protected mode".

The 2k (and later) NTLDR instead do support FAT32, so you can try also the one from XP or 2003.

Hard to say between the 2K, XP or 2003 which one loads "better" NT 4.00, surely the 2K one is "near in time" to the NT 4.00, so it would be my first choice for such a test.

To actually install NT on a FAT32 drive, as fdv pointed out, is not possible without integrating these drivers in the NT4 source and it's not easy as it may seem. (at least I have never seen this kind of integration detailed).

I should have pointed out that I'm far from being an expert, and the post allen2 suggested appears to be for experts.

Sure, but you are asking a question which solution requires being an expert, so you may possibly be in a CATCH 22 .

jaclaz

[BookWorm]

> Basically NTLDR is a "mini-OS" or "embedded-DOS".

Ok, I get it. NTLDR = NT LoaDeR. I may not be an expert, but I'm not dumb either.

> To actually install NT on a FAT32 drive, as fdv pointed out, is not possible without integrating these drivers in

> the NT4 source

So how do I do it?

To install 98SE, I have to copy the WIN98 folder from the CD to the hard drive. I might as well do the same with NT4 i386.

The i386 folder has a file called NTLDR. Can't I just replace it with the equivalent from the 2K CD?

Then it seems like the only hard part would be installing the FAT32 drivers.

Edited May 19, 2010 by BookWorm

[jaclaz]

So how do I do it?

That's exactly the problem.

Basically you are trying to do something that is:

1. UNdocumented
   
2. UNintended by the people that wrote the OS and install routine
   
3. UNintended by the good guy that wrote the FAT32 driver
   

and that has NEVER been reported as doable (AFAIK)

To install 98SE, I have to copy the WIN98 folder from the CD to the hard drive. I might as well do the same with NT4 i386.

The i386 folder has a file called NTLDR. Can't I just replace it with the equivalent from the 2K CD?

Sure, you can try, it may work or fail to, we don't know.

BUT the actual setup is done by SETUPLDR.BIN, I won't offend your intelligence giving info about this file.

Then it seems like the only hard part would be installing the FAT32 drivers.

No, that is one out of the several hard parts.

Mind you, I am not trying to put you down, simply you are a self-declared non-expert tryng to do something very, very complex, and at first sight missing the very basics: learnign to wak before start running.

On the other hand :

Life is "trying things to see if they work"

Since you came here to get help/advice, you should be ready to get some:

The *IMPOSSIBLE* way:

1. ATTEMPT to install DIRECTLY to a FAT32 partition
   
2. Find, all together, ANY number of problems
   
3. Isolate one of them, find a solution for it and loop to #1) until you solved ALL of them
   

The *DIFFICULT* way:

1. FORGET (temporarily) to install DIRECTLY to a FAT32 partition
   
2. Install to a FAT16 one
   
3. Re-install with the integrated drivers on FAT16
   
4. Re-install with the integrated drivers AND with the exchanged NTLDR and SETUPLDR.BIN (which will probably "carry with them" NTDETECT.COM) on FAT16
   
5. IF everything works as expected, try installing on the FAT32
   

The *EASY* way:

1. FORGET (temporarily) to install DIRECTLY to a FAT32 partition
   
2. Install to a FAT16 one
   
3. Add the drivers, test they work to access another FAT32 partition
   
4. Add the exchanged NTLDR(which will probably "carry with it" NTDETECT.COM) on FAT16
   
5. DO a poorman's backup
   
6. Re-format the FAT16 partition as FAT32
   
7. DO a poorman's restore
   
8. IF everything works re-do steps 5) and 7) restoring to the "final" FAT32 partition
   

A poorman's backup is hinted about here:

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=118623&st=48

The good thing about NT4 is that it's not picky at all about drive letters and System volumes (unlike 2K and XP) but still you need some knowledge on how to manage the drive/partition moves.

jaclaz

[allen2]

Just adding something to jaclaz Easy way: You could try to convert the partition (instead of restoring it) with a third party tool like partition magic or acronis disk director or.....

Edited May 19, 2010 by allen2

[jaclaz]

Just adding something to jaclaz Easy way: You could try to convert the partition (instead of restoring it) with a third party tool like partition magic or acronis disk director or.....

YEP , but one that owns a partition magic or acronis disk director license doesn't apply anymore for "poorman"

This may help :

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jeacocke/fat16to.htm

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/273896/en-us

http://www.mdgx.com/secrets.htm#FDPT

http://www.unusualresearch.com/cvtfat32/cvtfat32.htm

ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/utildisk/cvt16-32.zip

but you may need to rewrite the bootsector invoking NTLDR

In this specific case, since at a given time the working OS has to be copied to the "target" partition, that if I get it right is not to be touched/re-formatted, the poorman's way has to be used anyway.

jaclaz

[BookWorm]

Ok, you're right, this is a little complicated. The problem is that I want to dual boot with 98Se, experiment with Real32, <gag>Linux, Solaris, or something, (I suspect I will have one bootable partition that gets reformatted frequently even after I figure out my permanent setup) so I don't have an unlimited number of partitions to play with. NT4 and 98SE will have to share one. I've never had any of the rumored problems with 9x/NT dual boot (or even heard a specific rumor).

I am now considering giving up the experimental partition and using one (or two or three...) of my spare ThinkPads to play with. The only problem is, if I install both to a 2 gig FAT16 partition, add the NTFS driver to 98, will I have any trouble installing about 6 gigs (or more) to a program files directory in another partition? Some software still puts stuff in the boot partition.

Maybe it would be better if I put 98 in a FAT16 and NT4 in it's own NTFS. Something like this:

(boot manager)

C:2 gig FAT16 - 98SE (&NT4 if it will go)

D:7.9 gig NTFS - NT4? & program files

E:2 gig FAT16 logical drive - OS/2 (Including Win-OS/2 3.1; NT3.1?)

F:almost 128 gig FAT 32 logical drive - My Documents. (I read a lot)

G:128 gig FAT32 logical drive - music & video.

I don't think I will have any trouble making this mess under 98, but how well does TweakUI work with NT4? If I don't try to boot from a FAT32 partition, will the NT4 FAT32 driver install and work OK?

The problem is, I want it all. Usually, that's tough. But if I limit it to three out of four Windows varieties (and please don't tell them on OS/2 world that I called OS/2 a "Windows variety") it shouldn't be too hard...should it?

Hmmm, three out of four...there *is* an x86 version of CE...

[allen2]

Sorry if i reply totally off topic but i would use vmware, or other virtual solution to handle what you're trying to do.

If you install NT4 on fat16 or NTFS partition then there is no problem.

[jaclaz]

There are almost NO reasons (on a single user PC) to use NTFS if not the volume size that is limited in FAT16 to 2 GB (Ok, 4 Gb, but DO NOT use 4Gb FAT16 volumes!).

Sure NTFS is faster on BIG volumes, and has better recoverability, but you don't actually *need* it's features.

You have to understand that NT 4.00 was a "TOP" OS when "normal" hard disks size were around 500 Mb÷1 Gb, and a 2.1 Gb one was considered a *huge* disk, let alone a 4.3 Gb one.

I have been working (and I mean working, not "playing") on systems with a 2.1 Gb HD, partitioned in such a way that I could backup with three CD's (plus some little "spare" space).

A "standard" NT4.00 install is around 150 Mb, if I recall correctly, I had an "emergency" NT (simply with a number or unused system files and all help files removed) around 50 Mb on a ZIP disk (which also contained some importeant data).

The "right" size for a NT4.0 partition is below 1 Gb. (assuming that you have a separate partition for the DATA).

As areference, a typical setup I used in years like 98/99 (before 2K came out) was:

C: Primary Active partition, FAT16, 1Gb <-DOS 6.22 + Emergency NT (a copy of the 50 Mbish described before)

EXTENDED PARTITION containing:

D: Logical Volume Windows 95/98, FAT32, 1 Gb (yes, it is possible to install Win9x on a Logical Volume)

E: Logical Volume NT 4.00, NTFS, 2 Gb

F: Logical Volume 9xDATA, FAT32, 2 Gb

G: Logical Volume NTDATA, NTFS, 2 Gb

H: Logical Voume DATA, FAT16, 1 Gb

I: Logical Voume DATA, FAT16, 1 Gb

L: Logical Voume DATA, FAT16, 1 Gb

And yes, the disk was around 10 Gb, and I had 2 Gb sized backup solution.

jaclaz