Conflicting Memory Tests

[AnnieMS]

Dell 380 workstation, 3 GHz P4, 512 RAM, either dual-channel2 DDR2 533MHz ECC registered memory or 667MHz non-ECC DDR; SATA RAID 1, "BIOS controlled" 82801 GR/GH chip [intel 955x chipset]; winxp sp2

I thought I had the ECC memory , but the Dell diagnostic utility providing SMBIOS memory info reported the speed as 667 MHZ, while also reporting a long list of ECC errors.

The Problem

I wanted to check out the 380's [c 2005] hardware's condition before adding memory and a decent optical drive to the workstation. I started w/ the windows memory diagnostic test - did the overnight extended test - which found no problems. I then found hal was missing after running a boot virus scant. After replacing hal and doing a system restore via recovery console ACPI I could boot again, but a lot of device drivers seemed to have disappeared, ACPI was disabled and APM was being used. While gathering info on another computer to do a reformat/non-RAID 1 OS install using the dell install cd , I was running the dell hardware diagnostics from the utility partition - win98 or a version of win98 loads.

The dell diagnostic reported that the memory data bus stress test failed. One of the tests failed was a MATS

There was also a long list of ECC errors for system memory. I reran the short Windows Memory Diagnostic Tool test and again no errors were found. One of the tests passed was the windows version of MATS.

From my limited understanding of APM & ACPI, I don't think a problem there would affect hardware diagnostics.

I was wondering if the WMDT test didn't "stress" the memory data bus. From its description it seems to concentrate on the memory modules. Is the dell diagnostic definitive and indicative of a bad system board?

[puntoMX]

Looks more like an overactive anti malware scanner/remover to me. You could use memtest86 to test that RAM, also check for bad capacitors on the motherboard (coffee colored stuff on the capacitors indicates bad capacitors, also inflated ones are bad).

Dell has used a lot of bad capacitors in a lot of their boxes so I would start there...

[AnnieMS]

Thanks puntoMX,

I downloaded memtest86 and may or may not be able to run it. The USB keyboard didn't work today in any of the usb slots - had to dig out the PS/2.

The malware scan was set to just scan - not fix - and no definite infected files were found. There was a suspected trojan and some suspected pictureframe somethings that I thought were probable false positives. The blue screen the next day could have just been coincidental. After I got back into windows symantec and spybot scans were negative.

First I was trying to figure out why hal would disappear and still be reported missing after I copied a new hal from the winxp install cd and did a boot.ini rebuild and why the system restore via recovery console got me back into windows but w/ a lot of missing device drivers and a disabled ACPI. I was wondering about multiple files corruption and a disk going bad.

I was also wondering about a bad mobo 'cause on all the repeated reboots trying to get back into windows I noted a lot of "keyboard failures" but the keyboard worked. But then I found an update listed for the chipset to resolve a keyboard failure problem. Then I get mobo memory failures reported on a test outside the needs-to-be-reinstalled OS and today usb wasn't working in what I thought was the 16 bit pre winxp environment. Bit it could all be just wonky windows.

I looked carefully at the mobo with my don't-know-what-I'm-looking-at eyes and didn't see any electronic parts that looked burnt or corroded. I wanted to do the re-seat memory dimms thing, but they are under too many unknown cables and Dell doesn't provide the info necessary or I can't find where they provide the info.

I'm going to try to reinstall the OS and f that goes OK I'll see how stable the system is after and run memtest 86. If the mobo is bad I'm unlikely to replace it - all I could find googling was expensive refurbished ones for the 380. If it's still good I'd like to add more memory.

[puntoMX]

I looked carefully at the mobo with my don't-know-what-I'm-looking-at eyes and didn't see any electronic parts that looked burnt or corroded. I wanted to do the re-seat memory dimms thing, but they are under too many unknown cables and Dell doesn't provide the info necessary or I can't find where they provide the info.

I got some info on that for you.

If the mobo is bad I'm unlikely to replace it - all I could find googling was expensive refurbished ones for the 380. If it's still good I'd like to add more memory.

The problem is that it's a BTX board and not ATX so you would need to change the computer housing as well; but first, let's see what a new install and a memory check does. I replaced some bad capacitors last Saturday in a HP workstation but it still gave me "USB device that is connected isn't recognized" in XP. Good XP has the function to disable that message as it did work with all the USB deices I threw at it. Replacing capacitors isn't worth it in most cases, but this was a Socket 478 based board and they are hard to get these days, if at all. You have a Socket 775 based board that can still be found for a good price in ATX form.

[AnnieMS]

Thanks puntoMX,

I came across info on those bad capacitors back in 2002 when my father kept having to replace his mobo's. After his 3rd one burnt out I went hunting for info with my new computer newly connected to the internet. They had traced the supposed source at that time, so I did not expect the problem to still be around in 2010 - not that I'm really surprised. I don't see anything on my system board that looks like a capacitor that looks bad, but it/they could be at the not-working point but not at the bulging/corroding/burnt point, I guess.

Well, I'm now getting beeps rather than the computer turning on. I hear 4-2, which doesn't exist [i don't got rhythm]. I'm guessing/hoping it's most likely 1-3-2 - memory problem. If I can get at the memory it would be the cheapest solution. I'll look for someplace that will let me return it if such a place exists in case memory is not the problem or not the only problem. First I'll have my handyperson friend help me check that the memory is properly seated - getting to it is beyond my strength/mobility. Then help me install the new memory when it comes if that doesn't work.

If it's not the memory, I'll have to decide what to do. I'm saving my pennies for a mac - takes a lot of pennies. Pc's just take too much work, time & $ to try to keep working and secure. The mac will become my "work" computer and the pc's my hobby.

The Dell has an NVIDIA Quadro NVS 285; 64 MB video card and two 160 GB SATA drives so I'd like to fix the Dell or build another from its parts if I can do it mostly myself for little $. It may also need a better power supply - I think it's only 125W. Were 2005's computers that much more energy efficient than 2002's?

I still have the chassis for my 2002 computer which has an athlon xp processor in a Soyo Dragon SY-KT400 mobo. The Dragon was a socket A, atx. I don't know if 2002 atx is the same as 2010 atx.

[CoffeeFiend]

RAM problems... I don't recall using Dell's RAM test. I don't really trust it, but they likely do (and use it to determine if something should be RMA'ed usually) so it's hard to say for sure if it's any good. I'm not totally sure what kind of tests Windows runs either. For memory tests, I stick to memtest86+. You know what it's up to/does and it works. The bootable CD should be easy enough to use.

As for USB problems, well, lots of motherboards from that era are like that. Failure to detect a USB keyboard isn't all that uncommon either in old machines (assuming you set the BIOS option properly for it to work).

Bad caps... Well, I'm not sure about the Precision 380 (don't think I've seen one of those), but P4's from that era (first half of last decade or so) are well known for that, including Dells. It's always a possibility.

And now beeps, accompanied with "strange" beep codes... We can only speculate here. Bad motherboard? Bad RAM? We can't really guess.

What I don't need to guess though is that this machines seems like a whole lot of trouble: possibly bad RAM, possibly bad motherboard, USB that sometimes work, beeps instead of POST'ing, had several motherboards replaced, from an era known for bad caps, likely needs a new PSU as well, needs a new optical drive seemingly (and more RAM), and perhaps even has a failed RAID from what I've seen in another of your topics. And there's the HAL issues and not turning off by itself too. And there's probably some more that we're not aware of...

That's far more trouble in a single computer than I've ever seen before. It seems like anything but reliable. And I'm also keeping in mind it's an old P4 with not so much RAM so not worth a whole lot to begin with.

I wouldn't personally invest much in a machine in that kind of state (why waste $50 on RAM if it's still going to be highly unreliable, that's $50 wasted IMO).

A replacement motherboard would likely cost a fair bit more than the machine is worth in the first place.

Upgrading that computer wouldn't necessarily be cheap either: new motherboard/CPU/RAM, new PSU (that old 125W junker would have to go) and new case as the old one is BTX, and the optical drive you wanted to replace... There's very little left to salvage: an old video card with a measly 64MB that is outclassed by even Intel onboard video (ouch!), and an old 160GB HD with years of wear (a brand new SATA 500GB'er is like $50).

That leaves you with 2 other options:

1) Building something new and reliable (doesn't have to be crazy expensive)

2) Buying a similar low-end machine 2nd hand locally, like this one on craigslist for example (which I believe isn't that far from you): P4 2.93GHz (hardly any difference), 1GB RAM (double what you got), 40GB HDD (put your old drives in if you want), including a 19" LCD+keyboard+mouse for $125. Either ways, such "deals" aren't hard to find at all. I can get tons of such machines around $100 locally as well (including 30 day warranty and a legit copy of XP) -- I even see some people giving away such old P4's. So I don't think it's worth spending a whole lot on what you got.

I'm saving my pennies for a mac - takes a lot of pennies. Pc's just take too much work, time & $ to try to keep working and secure. The mac will become my "work" computer and the pc's my hobby.

Macs sure are overpriced for what they are (and pretty much useless for me too). As for PCs taking too much work, well, you can't judge based on that particular P4 you got. I've had numerous computers with no such issues ever (neither have the 1000's at work at my previous job). They just keep working, and security has been a total non-issue since XP SP2 as far as I'm concerned (not one single virus since then, even on the kids' PCs, even when running as as local admin under XP!). If you buy a reliable machine (that doesn't mean expensive) and don't do strange things to it then it'll work just fine, with little to no maintenance. For example, my kids' new PCs ($300/ea, based on a Athlon X2) have been working perfectly since day 1 (not a single problem, not one virus, no reformatting or reinstalling anything, etc) and I don't see that trend changing anytime soon.

[dencorso]

memtest86+ is good. But, then again, if you're already planning to upgrade the memory and found only RAM problems (either actual or suspected), why not buy a brand-new RAM stick and upgrade it anyway already, and then check again to see whether the detected problems went away? If they did, the original RAM was actually not good, to start with. And, since you can use ECC RAM, why not upgrade to it, as well? It is more reliable. Nowdays RAM doesn't cost that much, anyway, IMHO. Think about it.

[CoffeeFiend]

And, since you can use ECC RAM, why not upgrade to it, as well? It is more reliable. Nowdays RAM doesn't cost that much

It can be pretty surprising. A basic 2x1GB kit of DDR2 with ECC and suitable speed (non-ghetto brand) starts at $63 at newegg. With taxes and "Egg Saver" shipping it's about $75. I do think it's quite a lot for a machine that is worth perhaps $100 in the first place (and that would be in "working condition"), which might still require a new motherboard (then it would be $75 wasted), which still needs a new optical drive, and possibly a new PSU too, etc...

I mean, if the motherboard was known good (and the machine at least somewhat reliable), that the PSU & optical drive and everything else were pretty decent as well, and that it was upgradeable to a more decent CPU (this can't be upgraded past a dinky old Pentium D) and with some life left in it then sure, I'd happily throw the $75 at it.

Just my 2 cents.

[AnnieMS]

Thanks for all the replies,

I tried re-seating the memory. Since I've never done it before, I'm not really sure I've done it now. W/ the first one I felt like I reseated it well, but the 2nd one was trickier. I should have just taken that one out since the next "freebie" I can try is removing one dimm.

As CoffeeFiend pointed out, I've had a lot of different sx's [sorry symptoms] progressing from a missing hal to beeps. I don't know if they could all be from bad RAM or are symptomatic of a bad mobo or maybe both. I've also wondered about the power supply - I think it's only 125 W. I had 350W when I configured my compuzone computer and I thought 250W was standard.

When I plugged the power back in after doing the memory re-seat the computer turned itself on and beeped at me. I could only turn it off by unplugging it which is new. The beeps still sound like 1-3-2 to me, only the first beep sounds like 1 long and 1 short - like it's communicating in Morse code.

My decision to buy a mac is based on the two win2k and two winxp computers I've tried to keep working and secure - not just the dell. I really can't afford a mac - and I may actually not be able to afford one once I figure out how much extra the software I'll need will be. But I really need the reliability and security mac's seem to offer. It's true mac's don't offer the options that pc's do - that's the trade off to have the software compatible w/ the OS w/ the hardware. And not being sold in the numbers pcs are, they will be more expensive.

Maybe if I'd been able to afford an acer back when I got the first win2k computer.... but the bottom line is that neither win2k nor winxp were the secure OS's promised, programs supposedly win2k/xp compatible constantly crash, and networking mostly doesn't work.

If it turns out I can't afford the mac I'll have to try again w/ a new pc - win 7 this time. And my word 2003 won't like it and I don't like what I've read about word 2007.

[puntoMX]

... but the bottom line is that neither win2k nor winxp were the secure OS's promised,...

Yes, pure sales talk but they were better than the Microsoft OSes before that... now, if you look at Apple you will be fooled again; hacking a Apple will cost way less time than a Windows 7 based computer with all it's updates .

So, both modules give the same beep codes (yup, like Morse just not like a languages )?

[CoffeeFiend]

My decision to buy a mac is based on the two win2k and two winxp computers I've tried to keep working and secure - not just the dell

Honestly, most of the people with such issues are the main cause of the problems. You know, those who run as a local admin, willingly don't keep updated, and then run any malware infected warez from every dark corner of the internet (then obviously blame Windows for it)? But hey, they had an antivirus so it's OK (like wearing a seatbelt -- no need to drive safely then!) The last virus any of us caught here goes back to the XP pre-SP2 era and we're not doing anything special at all (even at work, the last time I've seen any such issue would be blaster, circa 2003)

But I really need the reliability and security mac's seem to offer

They're hardly magic. Reliability? They're standard PCs now (but with EFI instead of a BIOS), built from pretty much the same parts as you'd find in any other PC and from the same manufacturers (e.g. Intel for the CPU and chipset). As for security, they also have their issues (needs patching just like any other OS) and they funnily always get hacked first in the pwn2own contests.

It's true mac's don't offer the options that pc's do

They basically offer zero hardware configurations I'm interested into (how about a normal mid-tower eh?) and the software side is even worse (read: mostly useless) but that's just my opinion.

As for programs crashing it's likely caused by your computer (disappearing HAL, beep codes, dead mobos, etc) as 99% of the computers I've used in the last decade had no such issues (the other 1% being those with hardware issues or faulty drivers -- or being owned by those people running all that malware infected warez). Networking works fine if you know how to set it up, but with Win7 and HomeGroups it's supposed to be easier for home users.

BTW, Word 2003 is compatible with Win 7. And I'm not sure what you read about Word 2007, but I definitely wouldn't go back to 2003 myself. Either ways you can download the 60 day trial and see for yourself.

[AnnieMS]

Well, honestly, I'm not the cause of my computer problems - except those times I keep working when I'm too tired and do something stupid. That usually involves deleting something [not a system file] I shouldn't and I usually have a backup somewhere. Regarding security, I'm more concerned about the possibility/likelihood of my personal files being accessed or my computer's resources being used w/out my permission than I am about viruses. I'm behind a router, automatic updates is set to notify me and I install all security updates, I only install software from a site vetted by McAfee or Norton, I don't p2p, facebook or visit porn sites. I've always been careful, altho the way even trusted sites get hacked makes me nervous.

I do spend most of my time in an administrator account because I end up troubleshooting so much or learning by doing the examples in what I'm reading and the runas trick in a power user acct was never enough - you can't troubleshoot networking problems that way, for one major reason. I always had to log off my other account and into my administrator account and then back again and that got old quick. My power user account mostly sits around waiting for me to get the computer finally working smoothly, which never happens. But since I'm the owner of the computer, it would be nice to be able to use it as an administrator securely, since I am doing administrator things in between my wordprocessing and spreadsheet work.

By "working" I mean I want word and paperport to stop crashing and I want to be able to reliably burn bu data cd's [now dvds and dvd dl's]. I want to be able to burn DVD RAM and DVD+'s and use the UDF drag and drop, not pick one method and then hold my breath whenever I go to do a bu. I want my optical drive to stop disappearing from explorer and device manager whenever I run windows media player. I want error messages in event viewer to make sense and I don't want to boot up one morning and suddenly find a blue screen and hours of troubleshooting ahead when there was no warning the day before of any problems or there was a bunch of error messages that led nowhere and problems coming and going that didn't match the error messages.

I want to set up networking once and be able to file share between my computers and access the internet. I want a clear explanation of how windows authenticates for file sharing. Since MS insists I use IE for some things, I wish it would stop crashing and not come w/ a long list of security vulnerabilities I have to attempt to plug up even tho I don't use it because it's integrated into windows.

When I have to reformat/reinstall I don't want to have to install 60 security updates. MS should have a download available for both win2k and winxp that includes sp4 / sp 3 and all the critical security updates after those sp's. Considering windows tendency not to load itself properly and not to system restore itself reliably, WinPE should have been available to the common peasant windows owner - not just the aristocrats and land owners.

Macs aren't for everybody and I've only known a few people who had them. They were 100% happy, however, w/ their choice and they also were actually doing their work or play on their computers while I was spending hours trying to get mine to print or burn a cd or access the internet or etc., etc. For someone w/ time, energy, $ and the ability to gather the necessary info and do the necessary troubleshooting a pc can offer a lot more than a mac, but I'm lacking in all of the above. I'm not sure yet a mac will work for me and I'm hoping if I end up w/ another pc that win7 is really a different animal than win2k or winxp. Or like C-3PO, I'm doomed. I got a computer to give me some necessary help in coping w/ disabilities and my choice of a pc hasn't worked out very well.

I am planning on downloading word 2007 and giving it a try - hoping it doesn't crash on my thinkpad. I read it was very different than 2002/2003 [i'd like to stop having to relearn how to do everything for awhile so I can actually just do] and didn't have the customization features I use heavily in word 2003. One reason a mac may not work for me - I don't know how different Word 2004 or Word 2008 for mac is from the word I know and use.

[CoffeeFiend]

Well, honestly, I'm not the cause of my computer problems

I'm not implying it's the case at all, but you know they all say that

I'm more concerned about the possibility/likelihood of my personal files being accessed or my computer's resources being used w/out my permission than I am about viruses

It's not like a Mac will magically protect against that. And it just sounds like insecurity (no pun intended). The only person I recall who had his box hacked in such a way in the last few years was actually a guy running Linux (not exactly updated) with a SSH vuln. Honestly, nobody on the web really cares for my documents or yours, and it sounds like you're fairly well protected regardless.

you can't troubleshoot networking problems that way, for one major reason.

Normally you'd switch to the admin account temporarily for things like this. It mainly sounds like you're running into a unusually large number of network problems if that's an issue. Most people don't ever have to touch anything networking-wise (no idea what the problems you're running across are though)

By "working" I mean I want word and paperport to stop crashing

I use word on a daily basis at work and fairly often at home (and other parts of the suite) and I don't think I've seen Word crash even once in the last decade (and that implies using it probably a bit over 100 different PCs). It's most likely your paperport (I don't use that) or something like that which has issues and has a plugin that crashes your word. I've never even heard of someone with Word stability issues before (ever).

I want to be able to reliably burn bu data cd's [now dvds and dvd dl's]. [...] I want my optical drive to stop disappearing from explorer and device manager whenever I run windows media player.

That sounds like defective hardware or a Windows install full of malware... Never seen that happen ever (and I don't think I'm alone here either, much like for a LOT of things on your list)

I don't want to boot up one morning and suddenly find a blue screen and hours of troubleshooting ahead when there was no warning the day before of any problems

Sounds like bad hardware (definitely a recurring theme in this thread) or bad drivers. Besides BSODs caused directly by some nasty nvidia video drivers I probably see one BSOD per year across every machine I have access to (work/home/friends' and relatives' computers combined).

I want to set up networking once and be able to file share between my computers and access the internet

Plug your computers in your router, setup some network shares, done. It's not usually a problem.

I want a clear explanation of how windows authenticates for file sharing

It authenticates using the credentials you provide... You could open a new topic to get help with your network if it's being that much of a problem.

Since MS insists I use IE for some things, I wish it would stop crashing

The only thing I recall ever requiring IE for is Windows Update, and that's no longer the case beyond XP. I don't use IE much at all, but I don't recall seeing it crash once in several months.

When I have to reformat/reinstall I don't want to have to install 60 security updates

Not like any other OS will be different. But if that's an issue, perhaps you're reformatting more often that most...

Considering windows tendency not to load itself properly

Never had that problem so I wouldn't say it has that kind of tendency.

Honestly, it mainly seems like you just have incredibly unreliable hardware (bad caps, bad RAM, etc -- lots of possibilities). I'm not sure if I've ever seen someone have so many problems with a single computer, it's not like most people go through anywhere near that much trouble.

[puntoMX]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen someone have so many problems with a single computer, it's not like most people go through anywhere near that much trouble.

Indeed, would have ditched that PC a long time ago.

I must say that Dells are not my first choice when it comes to hardware, and especially to the BIOS... So much problems in one machine is hard to get... But yes, like CoffeeFiend said, it must have been most likely faulty hardware from the start... Bad PSU, bad mobo, bad memory... faulty cabling... it's just guessing for us. but if none of both memories do give you an image on your screen, I think it's time you leave that PC for what it is and save yourself a lot of frustration for 300USD...

Just my 0.02...