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Multibooter

UDF-formatted hard disk drives under Windows 98

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I am attaching a screenshot of  the 2TB HDD under Ubuntu, freshly formatted under WinXP with WriteUDF to UDF 1.02. If you need the screen shot in the future, please save it since I am running out of upload space and will delete it soon.
Hey, it's a terminal. You can just copy&paste the text.Anyway, this proves it. sdb1 starts on sector 0, just like sdb1p1. The partition contains the partition table. Or, looking in another way, sdb1 doesn't really exist, just the disk sdb starting with a fake partition table. (Recursing backwards).I wonder if this is just a trick to get Windows happy. Windows regularly doesn't like a disk to have no partition table.

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There is no reason why he can't just use part of the 2TB Drive and leave the rest unused.
Hi rloew,

When I had created 4 logical 20GB FAT32 partitions on the 2TB HDD, and then right-clicked in My Computer on the 2nd FAT32 partition on the 2TB HDD, the format window of WriteUDF! came up. Although WriteUDF! displayed 20GB to be formatted to UDF, WriteUDF! actually formatted the whole 2TB HDD to UDF (no warning!). After formatting one partition with WriteUDF! the whole 2TB HDD was formatted to UDF and the 2TB HDD had only 1 drive letter, the drive letters of the other 3 logical partitions were gone.

One user manual of SAI states "SAI is the only software company to guarantee that its UDF format is OSTA UDF compliant".

Apparently they interpret the End of Media as the end of the Physical Disk, not the end of the Partition. This would preclude multiple Partitions as the backup headers have to be at a certain distance from the end. I assume WriteUDF uses the Drive Letter to find the Physical Drive to Format but otherwise doesn't care about the Partitions.

I have a tool that can make the Hard Drive appear smaller.

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Should the message have not been clear before, the 2 Tb disk is too d@mn BIG to be a suitable test platform.

It is so d@mn BIG that you may encounter several, and I mean several different "barriers", "limits" and what not.

Get a smaller hard disk to do the tests, as you had already enough bad results to hope that anything will start working by sheer magic, unless of course you already succeeded in what you want to do in the meantime

Hi jaclaz, hi dencorso,

Thanks for your advice about the 2TB HDD. If somebody in this forum had written that he is using a 2TB HDD for his experiments, I perhaps would have made a similar posting. :yes:

Here my main reasons for using a 2TB HDD:

1) WriteUDF! under WinXP makes only a Quick format of the 2TB HDD, which takes about 12 minutes with my 11-year-old 700MHz Inspiron laptop; mkudffs under Ubuntu takes 3 times as long (36 minutes) with a 600MHz HP Omnibook laptop

2) I had done a lot of testing on an 80GB UDF-formatted HDD about 3 years ago, and I wanted to find out now what additional issues come up when I use a 2TB UDF-formatted HDD, none so far. Again, the critical issue of using UDF-formatted HDDs is either to get FixUDF! (or FixDVD!) to work on UDF-formatted HDDs, or to find another repair utility, which can, for example, clean up problems caused by writing under Linux and under Win98/XP onto the same HDD. 3 years ago I put the UDF project into a box because I couldn't get FixUDF! to work on HDDs. My experience had been that UDF-formatted HDDs become RAW out of the blue, similar to CD-RWs, which were also using UDF.

I am continuing now with the UDF project because I have changed my evaluation of the importance of a file system repair utility. I have never used Norton Disk Doctor or ScanDisk on my Archive HDDs, for fear of damaging something. Instead I have kept sets of 2 identical HDDs as backups, and every 6-10 months I prepare with Beyond Compare (=file+folder copy) a new set of identical archive HDDs. I am considering currently whether I should prepare my next set of archival backups with one HDD formatted with FAT32/NTFS partitions, and the other HDD formatted to UDF, while still keeping my old backup HDDs. This would also be a real live test of UDF-formatted HDDs.

3) I have bought several 2TB HDDs quite recently, and where I am there is only a 14-day return policy, so any testing is good.

4) I am using the 2TB HDDs to test my Kingwin EZ-Dock docking stations http://kingwin.com/products/cate/docking_stations/ezd_2535.asp whether they really work Ok with 2TB HDDs. Model 2535 can have inside an old or a new chip. Model 2535 with the old chip inside has a manufacturer-provided Win98 driver. The new model, however, doesn't have a Win98 driver provided by Kingwin, although it seems to work under Win98SE, if I add a line for the VID/PID to the .inf file, with the driver v1.04 for my JMicron USB-to-SATA burner enclosures

If I were Multibooter I would set the 2 Tb aside (without actually wiping it fully and not even "partially") and get a smaller hard disk, the smaller the better, then start some experiments with some order (and method).

I always wipe my HDDs after I bought them, to make sure that they work Ok, with old HDD Low Level Format v2.36. Wiping a 2TB HDD, with my dual-core 2.2GHz desktop and USB 2.0 takes about 20 hours, the drive gets a little warm in the process. Before and after wiping I print a report of the SMART values with HDDScan v3.1 and compare what has changed. I have already returned 1 new HDD which didn't work properly.

The UDF experiments here are made on a new 2TB HDD, before this 20-hour "burn in" (or burn-out?).

Edited by Multibooter

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Hey, it's a terminal. You can just copy&paste the text.

Hi Mijzelf,

thanks, I am a beginner at Linux. This UDF-topic is a marvelous excuse for getting more into Linux.

I have reformatted the 2TB HDD under Ubuntu with mkudffs. Here is what was displayed in Terminal:

omnibook@OmniBook-PC:~$ [b]sudo mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 --udfrev=0x0102 /dev/sdb[/b]
[sudo] password for omnibook:
start=0, blocks=64, type=RESERVED
start=64, blocks=12, type=VRS
start=76, blocks=180, type=USPACE
start=256, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=257, blocks=16, type=PVDS
start=273, blocks=1, type=LVID
start=274, blocks=-387938659, type=PSPACE
start=-387938385, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=-387938384, blocks=239, type=USPACE
start=-387938145, blocks=16, type=RVDS
start=-387938129, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
omnibook@OmniBook-PC:~$ [b]sudo fdisk -lu[/b]
[sudo] password for omnibook:

Disk /dev/sda: 20.0 GB, 20003880960 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 2432 cylinders, total 39070080 sectors
Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disk identifier: 0x00077cb5

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sda1 * 2048 37347327 18672640 83 Linux
/dev/sda2 37349374 39069695 860161 5 Extended
/dev/sda5 37349376 39069695 860160 82 Linux swap / Solaris

Disk /dev/sdb: 2000.4 GB, 2000398934016 bytes
256 heads, 63 sectors/track, 242251 cylinders, total 3907029168 sectors
Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disk identifier: 0x9ba49ba4

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdb1 0 3907020975 1953510488 7 HPFS/NTFS

Disk /dev/sdb1: 2000.4 GB, 2000394739712 bytes
256 heads, 63 sectors/track, 242250 cylinders, total 3907020976 sectors
Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disk identifier: 0x9ba49ba4

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdb1p1 0 3907020975 1953510488 7 HPFS/NTFS

fdisk -lu displays the same information for the 2TB formatted to UDF 1.02 under Ubuntu as when formatted to UDF 1.02 with WriteUDF! under WinXP

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Maybe you'd kill the partition table before creating the filesystem:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M count=1

This will zero out the first 1MB of the disk.

I did some tests with mkudffs.

First, create a 1M file filled with zeros, and one filled with 0xFF:

dd if=/dev/zero of=1M00 bs=1M count=1
tr "\000" "\377" < /dev/zero | dd of=1MFF bs=1M count=1

Put an udf filesystem on them, using Multibooter's parameters:

$ mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 --udfrev=0x0102 1M00
start=0, blocks=64, type=RESERVED
start=64, blocks=12, type=VRS
start=76, blocks=180, type=USPACE
start=256, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=257, blocks=16, type=PVDS
start=273, blocks=1, type=LVID
start=274, blocks=1517, type=PSPACE
start=1791, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=1792, blocks=239, type=USPACE
start=2031, blocks=16, type=RVDS
start=2047, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
$ mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 --udfrev=0x0102 1MFF
start=0, blocks=64, type=RESERVED
start=64, blocks=12, type=VRS
start=76, blocks=180, type=USPACE
start=256, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=257, blocks=16, type=PVDS
start=273, blocks=1, type=LVID
start=274, blocks=1517, type=PSPACE
start=1791, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=1792, blocks=239, type=USPACE
start=2031, blocks=16, type=RVDS
start=2047, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR

Look at the actual contents:

$ hexdump 1M00
0000000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0008000 4200 4145 3130 0001 0000 0000 0000 0000
0008010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0008800 4e00 5253 3230 0001 0000 0000 0000 0000
0008810 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0009000 5400 4145 3130 0001 0000 0000 0000 0000
0009010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0020000 0002 0002 00c3 0001 af1d 01f0 0100 0000
<snip>

$ hexdump 1MFF
0000000 ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
*
0008000 4200 4145 3130 0001 0000 0000 0000 0000
0008010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0008800 4e00 5253 3230 0001 0000 0000 0000 0000
0008810 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0009000 5400 4145 3130 0001 0000 0000 0000 0000
0009010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0009800 ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
*
0010e00 0002 0002 0090 0001 26ed 01f0 0087 0000
0010e10 2000 0000 0101 0000 2000 0000 0177 0000
0010e20 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
*
0011000 ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
*
0020000 0002 0002 000a 0001 26ed 01f0 0100 0000
<snip>

Conclusion: The first 32k is not written at all, and further only a few bytes are witten at the start of each section mentioned by mkudffs.

I repeated this with a 64MB file:

$ mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 --udfrev=0x0102 64M00
start=0, blocks=64, type=RESERVED
start=64, blocks=12, type=VRS
start=76, blocks=180, type=USPACE
start=256, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=257, blocks=16, type=PVDS
start=273, blocks=1, type=LVID
start=274, blocks=130541, type=PSPACE
start=130815, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR
start=130816, blocks=239, type=USPACE
start=131055, blocks=16, type=RVDS
start=131071, blocks=1, type=ANCHOR

The same blocks (and also the same blocks as on Multibooters 2TB disk), only the size is different. Also the amount of written data is equal:

$ hexdump 64M00 | wc -l
272
$ hexdump 1M00 | wc -l
272

The number of 'not zero' lines is the same.

So an UDF formatted 2TB disk can easily contain a (almost) undamaged FAT filesystem.

But I couldn't find the 'fake' partition table. This is not made by mkudffs, but maybe it is by one of the Windows tools. It seems UDF doesn't care about the contents of the disk, outside the 10 small blocks of data it writes

start=-387938385
This might be a point of care. The sectornumber swapped to negative. This might be only cosmetical, but maybe mkudffs actually can't handle disks with more than 2^31 blocks, which is a bit bigger than 1TB (at a blocksize of 512)

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Different flavors of UDF 1.02

I am attaching 2 screen shots of the Property sheets of the identical 2TB HDD, virgin, just after formatting with mkudffs under Ubuntu, and after formatting with WriteUDF! under WinXP.

The screen shot on the left is of the virgin 2TB HDD (label: UDF_102), just after formatting with WriteUDF! under WinXP to SAI-UDF 1.02

The screen shot on the right is of the virgin 2TB HDD (label: LinuxUDF), just after formatting with mkudffs under Ubuntu to Linux UDF 1.02

The screen shots were made under WinXP with the SAI file system driver active, so that the UDF-formatted HDD was writable under WinXP, with Free space indicated in the Property sheets. The SAI-UDF HDD (formatted by WriteUDF!, most likely fully compliant with OSTA standards) had no files or folders on it, the LinuxUDF HDD had 1 empty folder "lost+found" on it.

The crucial difference is in Capacity: The 2TB HDD had about 4MB more total Capacity when formatted to Linux UDF than when formatted to SAI-UDF (WriteUDF!) :w00t:

No idea whether there is also a MS-UDF flavor, but here a translation of my quote in posting #20 of the German wikipedia article:

"Compatibility: The Live File System is, according to information from Microsoft, only compatible with Microsoft Windows XP and later versions of Microsoft Windows. Other operating systems are not supported. The Live File System does not implement the Access Control Lists contained in the UDF-Standard and an implementation is not planned".

Here another observation: After connecting the USB docking station containing the 2TB HDD formatted to UDF 1.02 to the computer, it takes about 3 minutes for the HDD to "log in", i.e. until a drive letter appears in My Computer and the red (access) light of the docking station turns off. This reminds me of old CD-RW media, which also took a while to log in. So this long log-in seems to be an issue/characteristic of the UDF file system.

post-183045-0-90245200-1343291205_thumb.

post-183045-0-58899400-1343291235_thumb.

Edited by Multibooter

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Some interesting links with information about UDF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format

http://www.diskinternals.com/glossary/udf.html

White Paper: Universal Disk Format http://www.isit.com/st/documents/document3497.htm

Downloadable specifications: http://www.osta.org/specs/

UDF software: http://www.osta.org/specs/isvsearch.htm

Edited by Multibooter

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start=-387938385
This might be a point of care. The sectornumber swapped to negative. This might be only cosmetical, but maybe mkudffs actually can't handle disks with more than 2^31 blocks, which is a bit bigger than 1TB (at a blocksize of 512)

Very interesting speculation. I am adding to my experiments a 2nd HDD, this time an IDE 80GB, 2.5 inch connected to an Adaptec ACS-120 USB enclosure. A preliminary answer whether or not mkudffs works with 2TB HDDs will have to wait a little.

A UDF-formatted HDD without a partition table, under Ubuntu

I wiped the 80GB HDD with HDD Low Level Format v2.36 under WinXP. I then formatted the wiped 80GB HDD to UDF 1.02 under Ubuntu. The UDF-formatted HDD contained after formatting an empty folder "lost+found". I then copied 1 test .jpg file under Ubuntu to the UDF-formatted HDD. I then powered off the Ubuntu laptop and the UDF-formatted 80GB HDD in the USB enclosure.

When I powered on again the Ubuntu computer and the UDF-formatted 80GB HDD, the test .jpg file displayed Ok on the Ubuntu computer, even if fdisk -lu displayed:

"Disk /dev/sdb doesn't contain a valid partition table".

When I subsequently right-clicked on the 80GB HDD -> Safely Remove Drive I got the error message "Unable to stop drive" (see attached screen shot), but the icon for the 80GB HDD was removed from the desktop

post-183045-0-06434400-1343364410_thumb.

Edited by Multibooter

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You also need HDDErase to zero-out the full 2 TB HDD faster than you can say Presto! twice, so you can start from scratch from time to time.

I guess you missed this part of my post, which is the more relevant, since it refers to a freely downloadable (true) DOS app.

It uses native ATA commands to do the same that HDD Low Level Format v2.36 does, but in much less time, and more thoroughly.

Do dowload it, read the documentation and test it, Multibooter! I bet you'll be impressed.

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A UDF-formatted HDD without a partition table, under WinXP and Win98SE

I then connected the 80GB UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table) under WinXP.

No drive letter was assigned to the UDF-formatted HDD. In other words, WinXP could not read the data (e.g. the test .jpg file) on the UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table).

MS Disk Management displayed the UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table) as "Disk 1, Unknown, 74.53GB, Not initialized" with 74.53 GB Unallocated

Partition Table Doctor v3.5 came up with an error message: "Error. Boot signature of harddisk 2 Error", and a window came up "Rebuild Partition Table on Harddisk 2". After clicking on Cancel, Partition Table Doctor displayed the UDF-formatted HDD as Bad Disk 7631MB and the message.: ... "If you have created a backup file of partition table, please use the file to restore partition table on harddisk 2....

When the UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table) was connected under the special WinXP (SAI file system driver of WriteUDF!), the UDF-formatted HDD was not assigned a drive letter either, and the content on it was inaccessible.

Under Win98SE, the UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table) was not listed in Device Manager under Disk drives. There was an entry as "USB Disk" under "Storage device". Since there is no selection in Device Manager under Win98 to set the UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table) to Removable, the content on the HDD is not readily accessible under Win98. Acronis Disk Editor can access under Win98 the data on the UDF-formatted HDD (no partition table). WinHex v12.8 SR-10 (-> Tools -> Open Disk, under Physical Media: -> Hard disk 1, an error message comes up: "WinHex. An exception error occurred at offset 00402807. It is recommended to save your work and restart the program", and then WinHex wants to email an error report.

Edited by Multibooter

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It uses native ATA commands to do the same that HDD Low Level Format v2.36 does, but in much less time, and more thoroughly.

Translated in real life terms, this should mean that it will probably take roughly only 12 hours :thumbup (instead of 20 :w00t: ) to unneededly wipe Multibooter's 2 TB hard disk.

The futility is not in the tool used (though hdparm or HDDerase or Victoria, using the internal ATA commands will be WAAAY faster :yes: ) but in the concept itself of wiping.

It is UNneeded.

It is a source of UNneeded stress for the hard disk.

It is taking ANYWAY a lot of time, UNneededly.

The good news (for you) are that I was wrong! :w00t:;)

I probably overlooked Multibooter's posts and did not realize that he is using the 2 Tb hard disk through an USB (2.0) external docking station/converter.

This fact grants him ex officio a +1, so you are now BOTH at Level of folly=8 :ph34r:

:P

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz

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You also need HDDErase to zero-out the full 2 TB HDD faster

I guess you missed this part of my post, which is the more relevant, since it refers to a freely downloadable (true) DOS app.

It uses native ATA commands to do the same that HDD Low Level Format v2.36 does, but in much less time, and more thoroughly.

Do dowload it, read the documentation and test it, Multibooter! I bet you'll be impressed.

Hi dencorso,

I'll get to it, it's on my list., your recommendations are always good :thumbup

Right now I don't want to branch off to something related, speed is currently not that critical to me. I have enough idle computers to do a 20-hour-job, although it might help reduce the electricity bill :yes: , and I have no issue with power outages where I currently am.

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There is NOT one need in the world to completely wipe any hard disk, let alone a 2 Tb one, you will have that poor drive stressed UNneededly for several hours. :w00t: You can wipe the first 100, 200 or if you really want to be thorough 2500 sectors, and the disk will be, for all that matters to *ANY* partitioning and formatting tool EXACTLY as it was completely wiped.
Hi jaclaz,

What software would you recommend for wiping only the beginning of the HDD? I have used old MBRWizard v2.0 beta for DOS/Win9x, with the following command in a DOS window under Win98:

>mbrwizd /wipe=head /disk=1 /ignore

to clear the entire 1st head, disk=1 is the USB HDD (2nd disk)

but somehow not all System Commander stuff was overwritten. What software incl.parameters/settings would you recommend to wipe out the stuff written by mkudffs or WriteUDF! on a UDF-formatted HDD?

BTW, there is a new v4.0.135 of MBRWizard out, of 12-May-2012, with an easy graphical interface http://firesage.com/mbrwizard.php Does it work under Win98SE. Any comments?

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What software would you recommend for wiping only the beginning of the HDD?
dd in Linux.
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M count=16

will copy 16 blocks of 1MiB from /dev/zero (an infinite source of zero's) to /dev/sdb (second harddisk)

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I think jaclaz would suggest getting the DSFOK utilities and using something like the following command sequence (under XP):

fsz zeroes.000 51200
dsfi \\.\PhysicaldriveN 0 0 zeroes.000
dell zeroes.000

where N stands for the Physicaldrive number.

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